Tweed Champ vs Pro Junior

cg73cmc · August 18th, 2003, 02:42 AM

I'm fairly new to the world of things Fender. Put my Rick 370 down for a Telecaster and now I've been looking at other amps too. Marshall amps have pretty much been my standard.

Interesting to me, is how valued a 60's vintage CHAMP amp is. Is this a "Mojo" thang or what? Never plugged into a champ but I'm facinated at the price differential between a 40 year old CHAMP and modern Fender Pro Junior. They should be the same thing right? Except the PJ should be a more up to date version?

I can understand buying an antique -- but the people who hail the Champ seem to swear by it's tone -- not it's age. If the Champ is that good, why doesn't Fender make a replica of the tweed Champ? It would be very easy for 'em to do!

telemann51 · August 18th, 2003, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cg73cmc

I can understand buying an antique -- but the people who hail the Champ seem to swear by it's tone -- not it's age. If the Champ is that good, why doesn't Fender make a replica of the tweed Champ? It would be very easy for 'em to do!

I should think that the reason is that you could not sell such a low-power amp in volume for the price you'd have to charge for a PTP-wired discrete-component tube amp with finger-jointed pine cabinet hand-covered in tweed and lacquered. Just a guess.

stantheman · August 21st, 2003, 10:30 PM

and I am a Champ Advocate right to when they stopped doing PTP wiring (nobody knew I'd say that). They are amazing pieces of craftmanship...I've got a '56, and a '77. Life would be boring without these little gems. A note to all: there's 21 years between ages in my Champs and there's NO WAY I could sell either for any
amp and I don't care what that amp is.....Champs are like Teles, they have personality and soul. In all the amps I've been through since 1967 I've only found two
other amps that have Champ personality that are not Champs.

Skydog · August 23rd, 2003, 04:01 AM

Plugged-in, low volume, in the livingroom, for me it's always a stock '53 Champ.

MJ Harnish · August 23rd, 2003, 05:36 AM

In terms of circuit topology, a tweed Champ and a Pro Jr. have virtually nothing in common. They are two completely different designs: different tubes, different operating class, different preamp, different power rail, different rectification, different construction method, different transformer manufacturers, different transformer designs, yada, yada, yada. There is really no reason for them to sound anything alike; each has its own characteristic sound.

Rob DiStefano · August 23rd, 2003, 06:27 AM

As MJ just posted above - they're quite different animals. I've had at least several of both amps and the Champ is the hand's down winnah for my tone tastes. Lotsa other benefits with a Champ, particularly that it's a simple PTP circuit that even I can maintain - can't say that about a PCB amp. YMMV.

TexGoneNW · August 28th, 2003, 01:15 AM

The Champ has all the benefits others have listed, but in spite of that, and in recognition of the reliability concerns of the PC board Pro Junior, I got two PJ's.

They're good tone machines, and the one I do most of my playing with I picked up used used for two bills. I prefer the blue frame speaker. With a sound system and a mic, I can do what I want to with it. Without a mic and a sound guy, if I needed more volume, I'd take the '60 Bassman and try not to move too much air with it.

The one I play with has been reliable enough that I let my son take the other one to college.

They're both tweed, so I like the look, and I like the characteristic of the circuit, too.

I like the 6BQ5 power tubes. Yes, I've dinked with the tube complement, and recently ditched the "keepers" on the power tubes because they did less for tube reliability than they added, IMHO. I checked voltages throughout the circuit vs. the schematic and posted tolerances after trying different tubes, and I'm happy.

In either case, two knobs sure keeps things simple!

Bluedawg · August 28th, 2003, 02:51 AM

Nothing with a PCB compares to a Vintage Champ.
I can't find an amp that begins to compare with my
71 Vibro-Champ.

Tone,pure Tone.

eryque · August 28th, 2003, 10:51 AM

I've never spent much time with either a champ or a pro jr., but I think I have a good idea why they're making pro jrs. and not tweed champs now.

First is the tweed. Ritchie Fliegler has posted many times that Fender can barely give tweed amps away. People just don't dig it, other than a relatively small portion of the world that are the vintage gear nuts like us. And we'll wind up buying a real vintage amp, or build a kit, or something.

Second, I think Fender has proven that folks want a more up to date version of vintage sounds. The Hot Rod series is their best selling line of amps ever, and far outsells the RI amps. IMHO, the Hot Rods sound like they're part of the BF/SF family, but with a little more hi-fi and modern voicing.

And I have a sneaking suspicion that if Fender or anyone else were to clone a Champ with modern cheap-amp building techniques, it would cost about the same as a SF champ and not sell very well because people would say "Why would I buy a 4 watt champ when I can get an 8 watt pro jr.?"

I think they're both cool amps, wish I had the dough for one of each.

stevedenver · August 29th, 2003, 12:59 PM

my second post. we on a roll. now all i need is my tele.

interesting post about tweed guys-i didnt realize its so ...uncool...old....i guess if you grew up in the time of naugahide, tolex loses it charm...unless it purple and on a marshall...

bet them youngsters will come around when they learn how to play solos and want to hear thier guitars AND the amp.......oops old fartitis.....

Tex, would you describe the difference between blue and brown speakers-my pro is tweed but has a brown which i understand is inferior-however given the overall price and construction i am not prone to 'improving ' the amp -sort of resigned to it is what it is, and as another observed, ill build a kit if i want superior tweed (which I did-and wow)if you have any simple tube swaps which are dramatic i am really interested-especially some that woudl make it more chimey and less dark

if the blue is significantly better do you know another speaker that might help that isnt the cost of the entire amp? did fender use jensons as thier blues speaker? If not, I imagine a jenson is better, but using a weber blue dog is almost the cost of another pro (far better speaker-almost like an alnico blue-which have gotten really really pricey in the past year-over 300 as i understand

Tom P. · August 29th, 2003, 05:50 PM

My Pro Jr has the Brown label Eminence. I read a bout the blue label being superior. I picked up a used Jensen P10R RI and it sounds fine, maybe a touch brighter?? I'm not blown away and kinda think the low end punch on the brown was better. I figure I can make my money back selling the Jensen if I choose to.

jimmiboots · August 29th, 2003, 08:28 PM

The tweed Champ (and probably the blacks and silvers, but I've never had one) has the most transparent, glassy clean tone I've ever heard. It also has the most nasty straight-to-your-brain distorted tones I've ever heard...

All this from an amp that can sit on and end table. All this without my wife telling me to turn it down...

As for the money factor, there are some really good kits out there for you to build if you're so inclined. I recently bought a tweed Champ clone from a guy named Rich Grimaldi from New York. It was only $425, shipping included, and it's all finger jointed pine, hand wired, Sprague caps, etc. He says he's about to have a website up, so look out for it. At that price a Pro Junior seems really kind of silly, but I doubt he'll be able to keep them that cheap, mine was #001....

TexGoneNW · August 29th, 2003, 08:34 PM

Here's my take on it, and understand that it's from the perspective of a guy who owns two tweed Pro Juniors.

The first one I got I bought new. It had the brown speaker, which I understand is a ceramic magnet. It has a much tighter, brighter, clearer, louder sound relative to the PJ with the blue speaker that I bought used. The blue frame (which I understand is alnico, and is the same speaker as what is used in the Bassman RI) is a little warmer, a little softer, and seems to break up earlier.

I guess I wouldn't spend the $ to tweak the speaker, but I think it made the biggest difference between the two amps' tones. If I needed a touch more volume and clean tone, I'd use the brown speaker (e.g., for country), whereas if I was playing blues, I'd STICK with the blue speaker.

By the way, the lower serial number tweed PJ had the blue speaker in it.

I experimented with different tubes, just for the heck of it. The PJ is a cheap way to experiment with different tubes, ya know.

There's a very old post on Harmony Central by some guy who seemed pretty cocky about what he had found out about tube tweaks, and by golly, I think he was right. A JAN 5751 in the preamp stage makes a difference, and I think replacing the old Sovtek power amp tubes with NOS 6BQ5's was good, too. This is what I stuck with on the PJ with the blue frame speaker I held onto.

The only reliability problem I had was with the spring-loaded plate that is supposed to keep the power tubes in place. It moved off-kilter and tilted the tubes, bending the pins and eventually backing one of the pins out of its socket. I GENTLY bent the pins back in line and ditched the plate and springs, and I'm happy again.

Nuff said, huh?

stevedenver · September 2nd, 2003, 11:13 AM

thanks tex-

August 18th, 2003, 02:42 AM	#1 (permalink)
cg73cmc Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Orleans, LA Age: 46 Posts: 713	Tweed Champ vs Pro Junior I'm fairly new to the world of things Fender. Put my Rick 370 down for a Telecaster and now I've been looking at other amps too. Marshall amps have pretty much been my standard. Interesting to me, is how valued a 60's vintage CHAMP amp is. Is this a "Mojo" thang or what? Never plugged into a champ but I'm facinated at the price differential between a 40 year old CHAMP and modern Fender Pro Junior. They should be the same thing right? Except the PJ should be a more up to date version? I can understand buying an antique -- but the people who hail the Champ seem to swear by it's tone -- not it's age. If the Champ is that good, why doesn't Fender make a replica of the tweed Champ? It would be very easy for 'em to do! __________________ Take Care! Mark "If I'd known I was going to be a big guitar hero -- I would have practiced more" -- Ace Frehley

August 21st, 2003, 10:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
stantheman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: White Mountains Posts: 5,071	I've got a few Champs.... and I am a Champ Advocate right to when they stopped doing PTP wiring (nobody knew I'd say that). They are amazing pieces of craftmanship...I've got a '56, and a '77. Life would be boring without these little gems. A note to all: there's 21 years between ages in my Champs and there's NO WAY I could sell either for any amp and I don't care what that amp is.....Champs are like Teles, they have personality and soul. In all the amps I've been through since 1967 I've only found two other amps that have Champ personality that are not Champs. __________________ Somebody Loan Me A Dime

August 23rd, 2003, 04:01 AM	#4 (permalink)
Skydog Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 371	Champ . . . Plugged-in, low volume, in the livingroom, for me it's always a stock '53 Champ.

August 23rd, 2003, 05:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
MJ Harnish Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hattingen, Germany Posts: 457	In terms of circuit topology, a tweed Champ and a Pro Jr. have virtually nothing in common. They are two completely different designs: different tubes, different operating class, different preamp, different power rail, different rectification, different construction method, different transformer manufacturers, different transformer designs, yada, yada, yada. There is really no reason for them to sound anything alike; each has its own characteristic sound. __________________ MJ Harnish Suburbs: Where they cut down all the trees and then name the streets after them.

August 28th, 2003, 01:15 AM	#7 (permalink)
TexGoneNW Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Victoria, TX Posts: 917 4 Photos	If I may weigh in... The Champ has all the benefits others have listed, but in spite of that, and in recognition of the reliability concerns of the PC board Pro Junior, I got two PJ's. They're good tone machines, and the one I do most of my playing with I picked up used used for two bills. I prefer the blue frame speaker. With a sound system and a mic, I can do what I want to with it. Without a mic and a sound guy, if I needed more volume, I'd take the '60 Bassman and try not to move too much air with it. The one I play with has been reliable enough that I let my son take the other one to college. They're both tweed, so I like the look, and I like the characteristic of the circuit, too. I like the 6BQ5 power tubes. Yes, I've dinked with the tube complement, and recently ditched the "keepers" on the power tubes because they did less for tube reliability than they added, IMHO. I checked voltages throughout the circuit vs. the schematic and posted tolerances after trying different tubes, and I'm happy. In either case, two knobs sure keeps things simple!

August 23rd, 2003, 06:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
Rob DiStefano Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Park Ridge, NJ Age: 63 Posts: 4,915	As MJ just posted above - they're quite different animals. I've had at least several of both amps and the Champ is the hand's down winnah for my tone tastes. Lotsa other benefits with a Champ, particularly that it's a simple PTP circuit that even I can maintain - can't say that about a PCB amp. YMMV.

August 28th, 2003, 02:51 AM	#8 (permalink)
Bluedawg Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mid-Atlantic,US Posts: 196	Nothing with a PCB compares to a Vintage Champ. I can't find an amp that begins to compare with my 71 Vibro-Champ. Tone,pure Tone. __________________ Boom,Boom,Boom,Boom -J.L. Hooker

August 28th, 2003, 10:51 AM	#9 (permalink)
eryque Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: albany, ny [not chicago] Posts: 7,241 44 Photos	I've never spent much time with either a champ or a pro jr., but I think I have a good idea why they're making pro jrs. and not tweed champs now. First is the tweed. Ritchie Fliegler has posted many times that Fender can barely give tweed amps away. People just don't dig it, other than a relatively small portion of the world that are the vintage gear nuts like us. And we'll wind up buying a real vintage amp, or build a kit, or something. Second, I think Fender has proven that folks want a more up to date version of vintage sounds. The Hot Rod series is their best selling line of amps ever, and far outsells the RI amps. IMHO, the Hot Rods sound like they're part of the BF/SF family, but with a little more hi-fi and modern voicing. And I have a sneaking suspicion that if Fender or anyone else were to clone a Champ with modern cheap-amp building techniques, it would cost about the same as a SF champ and not sell very well because people would say "Why would I buy a 4 watt champ when I can get an 8 watt pro jr.?" I think they're both cool amps, wish I had the dough for one of each.

August 29th, 2003, 12:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
stevedenver Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: the mile high city Posts: 1,206 14 Photos	my second post. we on a roll. now all i need is my tele. interesting post about tweed guys-i didnt realize its so ...uncool...old....i guess if you grew up in the time of naugahide, tolex loses it charm...unless it purple and on a marshall... bet them youngsters will come around when they learn how to play solos and want to hear thier guitars AND the amp.......oops old fartitis..... Tex, would you describe the difference between blue and brown speakers-my pro is tweed but has a brown which i understand is inferior-however given the overall price and construction i am not prone to 'improving ' the amp -sort of resigned to it is what it is, and as another observed, ill build a kit if i want superior tweed (which I did-and wow)if you have any simple tube swaps which are dramatic i am really interested-especially some that woudl make it more chimey and less dark if the blue is significantly better do you know another speaker that might help that isnt the cost of the entire amp? did fender use jensons as thier blues speaker? If not, I imagine a jenson is better, but using a weber blue dog is almost the cost of another pro (far better speaker-almost like an alnico blue-which have gotten really really pricey in the past year-over 300 as i understand __________________ Im really a Les Paul guy at heart, but .....

August 29th, 2003, 05:50 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tom P. Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Eastern Ct. Posts: 909	I must be deaf to nuances.... My Pro Jr has the Brown label Eminence. I read a bout the blue label being superior. I picked up a used Jensen P10R RI and it sounds fine, maybe a touch brighter?? I'm not blown away and kinda think the low end punch on the brown was better. I figure I can make my money back selling the Jensen if I choose to. __________________ Just Pickin'

August 29th, 2003, 08:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
jimmiboots Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Jacksnoville/RIVERSIDE Posts: 361	Champs Rule! The tweed Champ (and probably the blacks and silvers, but I've never had one) has the most transparent, glassy clean tone I've ever heard. It also has the most nasty straight-to-your-brain distorted tones I've ever heard... All this from an amp that can sit on and end table. All this without my wife telling me to turn it down... As for the money factor, there are some really good kits out there for you to build if you're so inclined. I recently bought a tweed Champ clone from a guy named Rich Grimaldi from New York. It was only $425, shipping included, and it's all finger jointed pine, hand wired, Sprague caps, etc. He says he's about to have a website up, so look out for it. At that price a Pro Junior seems really kind of silly, but I doubt he'll be able to keep them that cheap, mine was #001.... __________________ "BoJack, Wrist Wrap. Wrist wrap, BoJack."

August 29th, 2003, 08:34 PM	#13 (permalink)
TexGoneNW Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Victoria, TX Posts: 917 4 Photos	Yo, stevedenver - blue/brown Here's my take on it, and understand that it's from the perspective of a guy who owns two tweed Pro Juniors. The first one I got I bought new. It had the brown speaker, which I understand is a ceramic magnet. It has a much tighter, brighter, clearer, louder sound relative to the PJ with the blue speaker that I bought used. The blue frame (which I understand is alnico, and is the same speaker as what is used in the Bassman RI) is a little warmer, a little softer, and seems to break up earlier. I guess I wouldn't spend the $ to tweak the speaker, but I think it made the biggest difference between the two amps' tones. If I needed a touch more volume and clean tone, I'd use the brown speaker (e.g., for country), whereas if I was playing blues, I'd STICK with the blue speaker. By the way, the lower serial number tweed PJ had the blue speaker in it. I experimented with different tubes, just for the heck of it. The PJ is a cheap way to experiment with different tubes, ya know. There's a very old post on Harmony Central by some guy who seemed pretty cocky about what he had found out about tube tweaks, and by golly, I think he was right. A JAN 5751 in the preamp stage makes a difference, and I think replacing the old Sovtek power amp tubes with NOS 6BQ5's was good, too. This is what I stuck with on the PJ with the blue frame speaker I held onto. The only reliability problem I had was with the spring-loaded plate that is supposed to keep the power tubes in place. It moved off-kilter and tilted the tubes, bending the pins and eventually backing one of the pins out of its socket. I GENTLY bent the pins back in line and ditched the plate and springs, and I'm happy again. Nuff said, huh?

September 2nd, 2003, 11:13 AM	#14 (permalink)
stevedenver Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: the mile high city Posts: 1,206 14 Photos	thanks tex- __________________ Im really a Les Paul guy at heart, but .....