Define "Solid State" amp....

trag-o-caster · July 6th, 2006, 08:54 PM

There's so many amp offerings out there that we may need to figure out what we consider to be "True" Solid State amps (transistor snobs that we are!).

Firstly, the digital modellers - do we consider these to be Solid State? Is digital technology officially considered to be Solid State? Did I just ask the same question twice and not even know it?

Secondly, how about the hybrid amps? There are those that have a SS pre-amp section with a tube output section, and there's the opposite - which usually only has one or two tubes in the pre-amp section.

I personally feel that the digital modeling amps are not to be lumped in with the analog SS amps, although I don't know the answer to the second part of my question above.

Regarding hybrid amps, I have no problem considering a SS preamp/tube output amplifier to be a tube amp. The output section is where the magic lies (usually - IF there's any magic to be found in the first place). However, I've come to the conclusion that the tube preamp/SS output amps are about the worst sounding of any of these offerings IMO, and I'd have a hard time thinking of these as tube amps. I've never thought that having a tube preamp section was any kind of viable compromise, although I've seen some great results with the opposite (MusicMan amps come to mind).

What are YOUR thoughts on this???

jjh37854 · July 6th, 2006, 09:22 PM

If there are no power tubes, IMO its SS

David Barnett · July 6th, 2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trag-o-caster

Firstly, the digital modellers - do we consider these to be Solid State? Is digital technology officially considered to be Solid State? Did I just ask the same question twice and not even know it?

Well, digital technology is made up from hundreds or thousands of transistors on a chip, so technically it is solid state. But modelling amps are a completely different animal from analog transistor amps, and in my opinion deserve a separate category.

I don't think they should have been included in the previous SS amp thread either...

sixty4fairlane · July 6th, 2006, 10:31 PM

IMO, modelers are an evolution of the SS amps. So, where do the hybrid amps fit in ? I don't know. Don't think it matters much. Thier time in the sun is up. Any modern amp only adds flavor with a preamp tube now. No disrespect intended, I don't like the splitting up of the all-in-one amp forum. But, I see why. It's not cool to ask a question about an amp and to have someone say "get a tube amp". If you go back there was a time when people used to slam any kind of tube amp but thier own. As if there is a one size fits all amp. So, today there is a line between SS and tube, even a de-evolution going on with the PTP done by one guy in a dark damp basement, that means it is bound to be the best amp ever created. IMO what we consider the best amps ever made had alot to do with luck. Fender and Marshall slung amps together with parts of wide tolerances and it was just luck that one would sound better then the others. I don't get into this or that is the only way to sound good. Nugent was on supergroup and said he could plug into a gopher's butt and get a good sound. Somehow I believe he is right.

Joe-Bob · July 7th, 2006, 02:07 PM

"Solid-State" was originally used to differentiate transistorized circuitry from tube-and-copper circuitry. I think that distinction is still valid. Modelling amps are still solid state amps, even though they may use tubes in the preamp section, or to drive the output transformer. That said, I have no objection to a "hybrid" category.

jumpnblues · July 7th, 2006, 03:52 PM

When I think of a s.s. amp I think of an amp that the power amp and/or the preamp are s.s. For me, I still think of "hybrid" and modeling amps as s.s. JMHO, YMMV.

Tom

11 Gauge · July 7th, 2006, 04:07 PM

to me, it doesn't require a great deal of nomenclature to differentiate what is solid state and what is not.

as far as I know of, there are only two types of guitar amplifiers:
-those that use tubes for the bulk of the circuit design.
-those that use solid state components, whether they be transistors, IC's, or microprocessors for the bulk of the circuit design.

to me, a modelling amp is solid state, because it uses solid state componentry, just on a much more refined and intricate level. whether or not it is digital or analog does not make it anything other than solid state.

so this really doesn't allow for a 'category C', or hybrid amp - either the bulk of the design falls to one side of the fence or the other. if it's got an power tube output section, it's a tube amp. if it's got 3 or more preamp tubes, it's a tube amp. if it only has one or two preamp tubes (and a gaggle of solid state preamp circuitry to accompany it), then it is solid state.

as far as the validity of modeling amps being solid state in the other thread, just re-read paragraph 3 above. if someone can make an argument that modellers are truly different from transistor-based amps at the foundation of their design (all solid state is built from the ground up using diodes and more sophisticated evolutions of them, i.e. the transistor, the mosfet, the IC, and finally the microprocessor), I will gladly recant my position.

But in the end, who cares? What do you prefer? That is all that matters. And preference isn't exclusive of other designs...

Wally · July 7th, 2006, 05:02 PM

From my point of view, a tube amp processes ALL signal functions in the tube domain. A SS amp has no tubes. Everything in between is a hybrid....mixed processing that is. A JCM900 hi-gain dual reverb, hot rod deville....they are not tube amps imo since they are loaded with IC's that process signal. They are hybrids just as a Music Man is a hybrid. An amp that carries a 12AX7 in the preamp for warming is paying insignificant homage to the reality of all-tube circuits....and confirms that tubes do something that realistically priced SS circuits cannot do.
As 11 guage says, what matters is what works for the player.
For my money, I want my signal processed in the tube domain.

Bluesbob · July 8th, 2006, 12:30 PM

I like the complex, even-order distortion you can wring out of an over-driven all-tube circuit. But if I was playing jazz, or even clean rhythm, I'd buy my buddy's JC120 in a heartbeat. (I'd like to buy it anyway, but I have no discretionary funds at the moment.) My Eden and SWR bass amps are hybrids with a tube in the preamp which supplies some compression and a warmer attack. I love my son's friend's MusicMan HD65, which has one tube in the preamp, then a SS EQ and driver, and then 2 6CA7 (EL34) tubes for power. The only thing is, it needs to be turned up pretty loud to sound its' best. Diff'rent Strokes... But i'm in the 3-class corner. Tube, hybrid and SS (including "modeling amps"). Now, where would you place the Marshalls and their ICs in this ranking? And what about the Blues Junior, with its' SS reverb circuit? I think I'm going to stop thinking about this and go practice for this evening.

Tremo · July 9th, 2006, 12:32 AM

Digital modelers are most definitely solid state. Lots of transistors and ICs in there in the signal path. DSP, etc.

Hybrid amps are, like you said, hybrids. We all have seen the MMs with the ss preamps and tube output stage. I think there were other makes with tube preamps driving ss power amps. These are correctly defined as hybrids. Some people like them, some dont.

To be called a "tube amp", there must not by any solid state devices in the signal path. That includes the reverb if so equipped.

If you like digital computer modelers, analog ss or hybrids, more power to ya, whatever floats your boat, whatever works for you and your band. I know there are other guys out there who are tube freaks who would only use a pure tube amp, whatever floats their boat. Bottom line, is does the audience give a crap or even know? Does it sound good for what you play? Use what works for you.

I was at an outdoor fest a couple weeks back, one of the bands playing, their guitarist was using a digital modeler. He was totally lost in the mix. You could barely hear him. It absolutely did NOT cut through. I felt sorry for him, almost offered to loan him my Twin.

IMO, YMMV, etc....

David Barnett · July 9th, 2006, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tremo

I was at an outdoor fest a couple weeks back, one of the bands playing, their guitarist was using a digital modeler. He was totally lost in the mix. You could barely hear him. It absolutely did NOT cut through. I felt sorry for him, almost offered to loan him my Twin.

To my ear, the modellers still sound like a RECORDING of a good amplifier, a couple of generations removed from the master.

July 6th, 2006, 08:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
trag-o-caster Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Flushing, Michigan Posts: 4,631	Define "Solid State" amp.... There's so many amp offerings out there that we may need to figure out what we consider to be "True" Solid State amps (transistor snobs that we are!). Firstly, the digital modellers - do we consider these to be Solid State? Is digital technology officially considered to be Solid State? Did I just ask the same question twice and not even know it? Secondly, how about the hybrid amps? There are those that have a SS pre-amp section with a tube output section, and there's the opposite - which usually only has one or two tubes in the pre-amp section. I personally feel that the digital modeling amps are not to be lumped in with the analog SS amps, although I don't know the answer to the second part of my question above. Regarding hybrid amps, I have no problem considering a SS preamp/tube output amplifier to be a tube amp. The output section is where the magic lies (usually - IF there's any magic to be found in the first place). However, I've come to the conclusion that the tube preamp/SS output amps are about the worst sounding of any of these offerings IMO, and I'd have a hard time thinking of these as tube amps. I've never thought that having a tube preamp section was any kind of viable compromise, although I've seen some great results with the opposite (MusicMan amps come to mind). What are YOUR thoughts on this??? __________________ Timothy Jon Lamb

July 6th, 2006, 10:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
sixty4fairlane Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Shreveport, Louisiana Posts: 293	Yeppers, thats a good question... IMO, modelers are an evolution of the SS amps. So, where do the hybrid amps fit in ? I don't know. Don't think it matters much. Thier time in the sun is up. Any modern amp only adds flavor with a preamp tube now. No disrespect intended, I don't like the splitting up of the all-in-one amp forum. But, I see why. It's not cool to ask a question about an amp and to have someone say "get a tube amp". If you go back there was a time when people used to slam any kind of tube amp but thier own. As if there is a one size fits all amp. So, today there is a line between SS and tube, even a de-evolution going on with the PTP done by one guy in a dark damp basement, that means it is bound to be the best amp ever created. IMO what we consider the best amps ever made had alot to do with luck. Fender and Marshall slung amps together with parts of wide tolerances and it was just luck that one would sound better then the others. I don't get into this or that is the only way to sound good. Nugent was on supergroup and said he could plug into a gopher's butt and get a good sound. Somehow I believe he is right.

July 7th, 2006, 02:07 PM	#5 (permalink)
Joe-Bob Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Age: 46 Posts: 4,017	"Solid-State" was originally used to differentiate transistorized circuitry from tube-and-copper circuitry. I think that distinction is still valid. Modelling amps are still solid state amps, even though they may use tubes in the preamp section, or to drive the output transformer. That said, I have no objection to a "hybrid" category. __________________ "German is the language God uses when He really means business." --FZ

July 7th, 2006, 03:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
jumpnblues Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Midwest Age: 59 Posts: 1,679	When I think of a s.s. amp I think of an amp that the power amp and/or the preamp are s.s. For me, I still think of "hybrid" and modeling amps as s.s. JMHO, YMMV. Tom __________________ jumpnblues "Heaven St." (Original Blues Instrumental): http://www.box.net/shared/static/z96atf0zn2.mp3 http://www.myspace.com/drbluezz

July 7th, 2006, 04:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
11 Gauge Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The East Coast Posts: 3,085 10 Photos	to me, it doesn't require a great deal of nomenclature to differentiate what is solid state and what is not. as far as I know of, there are only two types of guitar amplifiers: -those that use tubes for the bulk of the circuit design. -those that use solid state components, whether they be transistors, IC's, or microprocessors for the bulk of the circuit design. to me, a modelling amp is solid state, because it uses solid state componentry, just on a much more refined and intricate level. whether or not it is digital or analog does not make it anything other than solid state. so this really doesn't allow for a 'category C', or hybrid amp - either the bulk of the design falls to one side of the fence or the other. if it's got an power tube output section, it's a tube amp. if it's got 3 or more preamp tubes, it's a tube amp. if it only has one or two preamp tubes (and a gaggle of solid state preamp circuitry to accompany it), then it is solid state. as far as the validity of modeling amps being solid state in the other thread, just re-read paragraph 3 above. if someone can make an argument that modellers are truly different from transistor-based amps at the foundation of their design (all solid state is built from the ground up using diodes and more sophisticated evolutions of them, i.e. the transistor, the mosfet, the IC, and finally the microprocessor), I will gladly recant my position. But in the end, who cares? What do you prefer? That is all that matters. And preference isn't exclusive of other designs... __________________

July 6th, 2006, 09:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
jjh37854 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Francisco Age: 35 Posts: 1,187 7 Photos	If there are no power tubes, IMO its SS

July 7th, 2006, 05:02 PM	#8 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 4,212	From my point of view, a tube amp processes ALL signal functions in the tube domain. A SS amp has no tubes. Everything in between is a hybrid....mixed processing that is. A JCM900 hi-gain dual reverb, hot rod deville....they are not tube amps imo since they are loaded with IC's that process signal. They are hybrids just as a Music Man is a hybrid. An amp that carries a 12AX7 in the preamp for warming is paying insignificant homage to the reality of all-tube circuits....and confirms that tubes do something that realistically priced SS circuits cannot do. As 11 guage says, what matters is what works for the player. For my money, I want my signal processed in the tube domain.

July 8th, 2006, 12:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
Bluesbob Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: East Suffolk L.I. Posts: 1,073 20 Photos	Depends what you like... I like the complex, even-order distortion you can wring out of an over-driven all-tube circuit. But if I was playing jazz, or even clean rhythm, I'd buy my buddy's JC120 in a heartbeat. (I'd like to buy it anyway, but I have no discretionary funds at the moment.) My Eden and SWR bass amps are hybrids with a tube in the preamp which supplies some compression and a warmer attack. I love my son's friend's MusicMan HD65, which has one tube in the preamp, then a SS EQ and driver, and then 2 6CA7 (EL34) tubes for power. The only thing is, it needs to be turned up pretty loud to sound its' best. Diff'rent Strokes... But i'm in the 3-class corner. Tube, hybrid and SS (including "modeling amps"). Now, where would you place the Marshalls and their ICs in this ranking? And what about the Blues Junior, with its' SS reverb circuit? I think I'm going to stop thinking about this and go practice for this evening. __________________ What, me worry?

July 9th, 2006, 12:32 AM	#10 (permalink)
Tremo Banned Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA Posts: 3,803	Digital modelers are most definitely solid state. Lots of transistors and ICs in there in the signal path. DSP, etc. Hybrid amps are, like you said, hybrids. We all have seen the MMs with the ss preamps and tube output stage. I think there were other makes with tube preamps driving ss power amps. These are correctly defined as hybrids. Some people like them, some dont. To be called a "tube amp", there must not by any solid state devices in the signal path. That includes the reverb if so equipped. If you like digital computer modelers, analog ss or hybrids, more power to ya, whatever floats your boat, whatever works for you and your band. I know there are other guys out there who are tube freaks who would only use a pure tube amp, whatever floats their boat. Bottom line, is does the audience give a crap or even know? Does it sound good for what you play? Use what works for you. I was at an outdoor fest a couple weeks back, one of the bands playing, their guitarist was using a digital modeler. He was totally lost in the mix. You could barely hear him. It absolutely did NOT cut through. I felt sorry for him, almost offered to loan him my Twin. IMO, YMMV, etc....