Pro Blues guitarist ?

[nonvintage]

Which amps do you prefer, Master volume tube amps or amps with just a single volume control for live situations?

[petebradt]

I'd never use a master volume amp under any circumstances.

I have a Tweed Champ, Tweed Deluxe and Tweed Bassman, and I'll use them depending on the size of the gig. The Deluxe covers 90 percent of all of it.

[JohnnyCrash]

You said a mouthfull, petebradt...

One word "TWEED".

You want old school blues sounds? Go Tweed.

Low watts are best for more distortion, so mix and match tweed circuits till you find an amp that'll "grind" at a volume level good for you and your band.

Once you find the right one, build it... or have it built for you.

[J-man]

Originally Posted by petebradt

I'd never use a master volume amp under any circumstances.

Can you explain why? I'm not clued up on valve amps much. :)

[zombywoof]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

One word "TWEED".

Amen Brother,
One volume kob, low watts and a 12 inch Jensen with paper gasket.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by J-man

Can you explain why? I'm not clued up on valve amps much. :)

Short answer - because they suck.

Longer answer, master volume amps add preamp overdrive, AKA "fizz" to the tone. if you want toneful overdrive, overdriving the POWER tubes (by turning the amp up) is the way to get it.

Master volume controls let you get *distortion* at lower volumes, but NOT overdrive. There is a difference.

If you play the blues, you need tweed. I don't give a rip what any g-d guitar hero uses, Tweed is where it's at for the blues.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

Amen Brother,
One volume kob, low watts and a 12 inch Jensen with paper gasket.

And preferably a paper bobbin for the voice coil.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by petebradt

.....because they suck.

Now that's the kind of well thought out, informative answer we need more of around here.

[Scott S]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Now that's the kind of well thought out, informative answer we need more of around here.

They suck power tube distortion, is that clearer? ;)

[Big Mike Simpson]

Blackface Fender Super Reverb (65 original)

The Tweed amps ARE sweet but limited... (I have 3)
They have no reverb or vibrato and often lack enough power to cut through the mix without being miked... then you are dependent on the soundman...

A Super Reverb has more square inches of speaker surface than most amps.. more ooompfh!!!

Oh.. and I dislike master volume amps almost as much as solid state amps...

[3StringGuitar]

So is it impossible to get power tube break up on a master volume amp? I'm not quite clear on the whole subject either so excuse me. I'd guess that turning up the volume and the master is going to mix in pre amp break up too correct?

[Monster Mike Welch]

Yes, you can get power tube breakup on a master volume-equipped amp - just turn the whole thing up! The best master volume designs don't have much effect on the signal unless you turn that knob down. I had a Matchless with a master that was a fantastic amp, but Pete's right - running the gain high and the master low is not really the best way to get sweet, bluesy overdrive on most amps.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Now that's the kind of well thought out, informative answer we need more of around here.

I suggest if you don't like my answers, DON'T READ THEM.

Besides, at least I gave a longer answer.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

Blackface Fender Super Reverb (65 original)

The Tweed amps ARE sweet but limited... (I have 3)
They have no reverb or vibrato and often lack enough power to cut through the mix without being miked... then you are dependent on the soundman...

A Super Reverb has more square inches of speaker surface than most amps.. more ooompfh!!!

Oh.. and I dislike master volume amps almost as much as solid state amps...

Bassman has as much power and as much speaker.

I play gigs with my Deluxe all the time and at most club gigs, I can't really open it up without getting complaints that it's too loud.

It cuts through the mix just fine.

[Montana_Dawg]

It's all in the preference.

For some things, I prefer my Hot Rod Deluxe. It has a master volume, and it works great..

On others, like when I play alot of country/rock, then my Fender Roc Pro 1000 hybrid suits me just fine. I love the color the preamp tube gives, but when I want a nice, crisp, clean tone, then nothing beats the 100W solid state output. Just plug in a dyna comp, and it's all good.

For blues stuff, I use a modified blues driver pedal that I did myself. I can get the sweet tones I want from it that I cannot get from just a straight amp, matter what configuration it is.

And, for some really nasty stuff, I like tweaking my solid state amp.

I'll try any and everything to search for whatever can get close to what is rattling around inside my head. :)

[Tremo]

MV amps are for noodler high gain guys. They suck for blues.

TWEED is happening.

[Montana_Dawg]

Originally Posted by Tremo

MV amps are for noodler high gain guys. They suck for blues.

TWEED is happening.

Well, I am not a high gain noodler, and I do just fine on blues with my rigs...plus, I don't even own a tweed. They are nice amps, but not my thang.

[mad dog]

Blues is a feeling. If you feel it, almost any amp will do. That said, tweed is indeed one of my top blues flavors. I've used MV amps often. Love the sound of MV twins from the 70s, best of all a BFSR on which I put a (non-invasive) MV. Subtle, effective, sure worked for blues.

That was then. For now, three favorites, two tweeds. One, a 35 watt Clark Tyger bandmaster type. No MV needed here. What a sound! #2, Gibson GA40. Hot, soulful, jump and swing. Top dog is a 20-25 watt Magnatone M-10A 1x12. It's far from simple and tweed, has EQ presets per channel, stereo input, high voltage EL84 type tubes, ceramic old Jensen, reverb and true pitch shift vibrato. Some real modern sounds here, also the swampiest, bluesiest tones you can imagine. Good amps are not limited to genre. I try to keep an open mind.

[shakedancer]

I agree with everyone here. I own a Bassman, but I also own a Super Champ ( MV) in a 1x12 cabinet with Red, White and Blues speaker, which is great for the Blues. The pre amp is always on 5 and master for rest. 8)

[Wally]

INteresting discussion.
One difference between Tweeds and BF Fenders....and I love them both....is that the Tweed preamp gain is structured differently. There are two stages of gain before the tone controls. The BF amps are 1+1 with the tones following the first stage of gain. This arrangement saps much of the gain before the signal hits the second stage. This yields a cleaner...not as hot...preamp signal to the PI. The early Marshalls are tweed Fenders in English clothing.
A good master volume allows one to drive the preamp harder to increase preamp gain. It is possible to utilize a preamp gain control in a MV amp in such a manner as to emulate the higher gain of a Tweed without incurring super 'modern' high gain...buzz.
One thing that a MV circuit does is add more load to the signal. Simpler is often better to many of us. A volume and a tone may be preferred by many. Further complications such as multiple tones, MZ's and such do not ;yield as pure tone as do simpler circuits.
And no matter how much or how little preamp gain one prefers, IMHO power tubes must operate at a certain level or the amp won't breath for the player. Pete's use of 3 levels of tweed wattage is a plan with which I am in total agreement. I feel the samea about BF's or any other amp...proper wattage for the venue.

[Big Mike Simpson]

Originally Posted by petebradt

Bassman has as much power and as much speaker.

I play gigs with my Deluxe all the time and at most club gigs, I can't really open it up without getting complaints that it's too loud.

It cuts through the mix just fine.

I like the Bassman too... our harp player uses one... but then again no reverb or vibrato...

I have a Deluxe too... try turning the tone controls down and the volume up.... yes they are LOUD but lack the fullness and feeling of more square inches of speaker surface area.

In the band I am in I play throught a 65 SR, the other guitar player uses a 68 SR and the Harp player uses a RI Bassman with a Hoffman board kit =12 10's of speaker surface area, very full even when not loud...

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

I like the Bassman too... our harp player uses one... but then again no reverb or vibrato...

I have a Deluxe too... try turning the tone controls down and the volume up.... yes they are LOUD but lack the fullness and feeling of more square inches of speaker surface area.

In the band I am in I play throught a 65 SR, the other guitar player uses a 68 SR and the Harp player uses a RI Bassman with a Hoffman board kit =12 10's of speaker surface area, very full even when not loud...

I don't use reverb or vibrato enough to justify having it in the amp. In outdoor venues, I use a bit of delay but that's all. Most people don't know how to use reverb anyway (they use waaaay too much). I have a Nobels trem pedal if I decide I need it.

I think a 5F6 Bassman, in the right venue, has the best tone of any amp ever made. I don't get to play mine very often because it's so freakin loud, but I have pedals to give me reverb and tremolo. Don't need and don't want it in the amp.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by Monster Mike Welch

Yes, you can get power tube breakup on a master volume-equipped amp - just turn the whole thing up! The best master volume designs don't have much effect on the signal unless you turn that knob down. I had a Matchless with a master that was a fantastic amp, but Pete's right - running the gain high and the master low is not really the best way to get sweet, bluesy overdrive on most amps.

Mike, you're right but...if you're going to do that, what's the point of having the thing?

I just like Tweed. K.I.S.S. Hell, I just build my Champ and man it doen't get much more butt-stupid simple than that. I was at an informal rehearsal last night, first time I'd taken it out, and even with a half-broken speaker, it sounded pretty good to me.

the thing I like about Tweed amps is how responsive to touch they are. I can play light and it's light, and I can make it 2-3 times louder just by hitting the strings harder. But most of all, I 'like the idea of tweeds, "clean with hair." That's the sound that just rocks my boat.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

Blackface Fender Super Reverb (65 original)

The Tweed amps ARE sweet but limited... (I have 3)
They have no reverb or vibrato and often lack enough power to cut through the mix without being miked... then you are dependent on the soundman...

A Super Reverb has more square inches of speaker surface than most amps.. more ooompfh!!!

Oh.. and I dislike master volume amps almost as much as solid state amps...

TWEEDS DO HAVE THE WATTAGE
Tweed era amps had several different models, all covering different power levels.

Fender has just reissued the Tweed "low watt" Twin. It's the '57 RI Twin... it's 40 watts! So the Tweed-low power argument is just not here.

REVERB?
You don't need really tremolo for blues, BUT you may need some reverb... in that case, use a standalone Fender reverb unit. I've got 3 Tweed amps and a standalone reverb unit, and if you've heard Kid Ramos' "Greasy Kid Stuff", that's the kind of blues tone I get everytime without any knob twiddling!

WHY
That being said, Tweed is "the best" for blues to a lot of folks because as mentioned:
1. The way they amplified was different (cathode biasing, lower headroom before OD starts breaking up, etc, etc).
2. They were the EXACT amps the blues guys had available at the time! '50s crude circuits cranked was exactly what they used on those early records from the '50s.

NON-TWEED
At the same time, there's TONS of awesome blues on BF and even SF Fender amps, cheap '50s Sears amps (again, crude Cathode Biased amps, very similar to Tweed Fenders), and a variety of other non-tweed amps.

MV
Master Volume amps are great for getting some hair in the bedroom, but live or when recording you've got to balance the preamp gain with power amp. Preamp gain is never as "full" or BALLSY as an amp cranked.

I enjoy a good MV type amp, but usually they're are so powerfull you can't crank em (50 or 100 watts). Amps lile the Peavey Classic 30 are awesome for power tube balls with preamp gain dashed in for taste.

MV 50watt JCM800s are a beautiful thing!

Bottom line is, go for the sound YOU are looking for... if you're going for '50s blues, go with a Tweed... if you're going for 60s blues, go with a BF era Fender... if you're going for british blues/rock, go with an old Marshall (especially the 18watt "BeanO" combo)...

I recommend saving the MV type amps for hard rock/metal... although they can usually get the Classic Rock ZZTop "La grange" sound - but then again, so can a cranked Tweed!