Live sound using DI and a Fender Champ (questions)

slincoln · April 10th, 2006, 07:19 PM

Hey guys. The bandleader I work for is seriously thinking about going with the new Bose Cylindrical Radiator loudspeakers in lieu of a tradtional PA. So, the bass player and I are being pushed to punt our amps, and go through an amp simulator into the Bose system. Well, I'm an old tube fart, but I do understand the need to get stage volume down. My question is, could I use my Fender Champ (low stage volume) into some kind of DI and then input into the Bose system? I was eyeing the Behringer GI-100 at MF. I assume the amp's speaker out plugs into the DI, then the DI has an output to an external device plus a speaker out for the internal speaker? Or, is the internal speaker just removed from the equation entirely?

Any thoughts, comments are greatly appreciated. The bandleader thinks I ought to get a POD.......argh

tiktok · April 10th, 2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slincoln

Hey guys. The bandleader I work for is seriously thinking about going with the new Bose Cylindrical Radiator loudspeakers in lieu of a tradtional PA. So, the bass player and I are being pushed to punt our amps, and go through an amp simulator into the Bose system. Well, I'm an old tube fart, but I do understand the need to get stage volume down. My question is, could I use my Fender Champ (low stage volume) into some kind of DI and then input into the Bose system? I was eyeing the Behringer GI-100 at MF. I assume the amp's speaker out plugs into the DI, then the DI has an output to an external device plus a speaker out for the internal speaker? Or, is the internal speaker just removed from the equation entirely?

Any thoughts, comments are greatly appreciated. The bandleader thinks I ought to get a POD.......argh

POD live...not most people's first choice.
You might look into one of those silent speaker boxes (soundproofed box with a speaker inside and a mic mount). Little chance of a Champ generating enough volume to be heard outside one of those enclosures.

TheBigKevDogg · April 10th, 2006, 08:11 PM

There are plenty of posts about this stuff over in the Sunday Morning Players section...churches can often be the hardest place to bring big n' loud tube amp into (or even an amp at all!)

JohnnyCrash · April 10th, 2006, 09:22 PM

You can't plug the speaker out jack into a DI.

The output transformer will not like the impedance mismatch and it will die.

There may be some attenuators that match the impedance loads (4ohms is fine on a 3.2 ohm Champ) and may also have a Line Out for this type of use.

I'd baffle the Champ, mic it up, and run it into the Bose tower of terror... or just fire the band leader

:)

slincoln · April 10th, 2006, 09:49 PM

Thanks, I'll snoop around the other sections, as well. I didn't make it seem that I HAVE to be silent on stage, apart from the Bose. I don't have to wind out the Champ to get a sound I like, I love mine at lower volume.

I guess I need to understand the basic setup of a DI........

Amp----DI -----out to internal speaker
------out to mains

(?)

Dacious · April 10th, 2006, 10:05 PM

It's very easy to fit a lineout off the speaker jack of any amplifier. If you can solder you can do it. You basically run a parallel socket like a speaker extension off the speaker jack and run a cable into the mixer.

You need a 270 or thereabouts ohm resistor between the tip and ring (hot and ground) and a 2.2K resistor between the hot of the extension and the hot of the speaker jack.

This will bleed a tiny amount of signal into the lineout without affecting sound through the speaker, sufficient for a mixer to take and amplify through the PA.

A simpler solution is to stick an SM57 in front of the Champ and use it as your monitor.

IMO you need to get the bandmaster to read this board. Rightsizing your amp setup with something like a Princeton Reverb is far more preferrable to playing through a POD, which is designed for recording, and a PA system which is not designed to reproduce electric guitar.

Actually, rather than be forced to play through a POD I'd take out a contract on the bandmaster. But that's just me.

Tim Armstrong · April 10th, 2006, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slincoln

Hey guys. The bandleader I work for is seriously thinking about going with the new Bose Cylindrical Radiator loudspeakers in lieu of a tradtional PA. So, the bass player and I are being pushed to punt our amps, and go through an amp simulator into the Bose system.

I'd be giving my notice right about then. Really! Life is way too short and my time is way too valuable (to me) to spend futzing with that kind of setup.

Good luck!

Tim

Joe-Bob · April 10th, 2006, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I'd be giving my notice right about then. Really! Life is way too short and my time is way too valuable (to me) to spend futzing with that kind of setup.

Good luck!

Tim

I kinda have to agree here....but lots of people think I'm too stubborn, so I'm probably not a good person to ask.

If he wants you to use a POD, make him buy it.

Alternately, you can put the DI box before the amp, and go into the PA that way. This is my least prefered method, though.

BTW -- you said , "...the bandleader I work for...", explain what kind of gig this is, please.

Brick · April 11th, 2006, 12:27 AM

I have been facinated by this concept, which if you haven't checked it out, requires each bandmember ( you could share, but I wouldn't) to buy a self contained amp/speaker setup. You do not use a PA in venues up to about 500 people. You do not use monitors. The speaker towers radiate sound 180 degrees, and musicians interact like they have for thousands of years when acoustic was the only way to go. The audience hears what the musicians hear. You do not depend on a soundman. Everyone knows where the sound is comming from because they are in front of their speaker.

What this does do, is pretty much preclude the use of traditional amps unless you run an isolation box like the above posts suggest.

My band has been running preamps to PA for gigs for a while now so we are already halfway there. PODs and the like thrive in this kind of situation. The down side is that we are forced to go against every tonemeister thought we have ever had, but as a band with 3 part harmonys, the vocal clarity in the mix and the ability to regulate the volume of bass, guitars, keys and yes, V drums, more than makes up for the lack of real amps. The better paying corporate gigs appreciate our ability to regulate our sound levels, and it is a joy to play with a great mix.
The bummer is the three power amp, mains, monitors, mixers, oh and the two huge subwoofers we have to cart around. The Bose system is, guitar in one hand, your Bose system in the other, plug your stuff in, adjust your volumes and play. In 5 min. you are gone.

Here's another catch. A Bose system by itself is worthless, more or less. I would only have a band own the setup collectively, with a buy out agreement should you leave. The band could then sell it to the next band member to join. Why would you invest two grand if the bandleader could just fire you at will?

I have 5 tube amps, but believe me, we are becomming extinct, sooner or later.

Check out the Bose website with an open mind. They have a lot of good ideas.

Flatheads forever!

slincoln · April 11th, 2006, 01:21 AM

Brick, your points are well taken, and are the exact reason that my bandleader is seriously ready to take the Bose plunge. I've heard the system, and it has tremendous merit. It may be the next "great thing".

My point is, why can't I have my cake and eat it, too? Why not just stick a mic in front of a small amp? How much is a small amp (5 watts, come on now) going to spoil the sacrid Bose party? Is that 8" speaker in my Champ going to hurt somebody, in a ballroom, if I don't "open it up"? The horn players in my band can exist "in air" outside the Bose.....nobody is asking them to buy wind controllers. The singers don't have to telepathically transmit to the Bose. Why must I be dead silent before I reach "the pole"? :x

I'm not arguing against anybody here, I guess I'm annoyed with the general premise that electric guitar players need to be totally controlled within this new Bose scheme of things. We must be punished for past crimes against eardrums. I guess, the Bose system is so great that we have to punt all the tone tools at our disposal....we can't even seriously scale down our rigs to accomodate it. Maybe Bose and Line 6 are a part of a larger global conspiracy to piss in our cheerios. :x

Call me an old fart, but the only reason I can see to plug into a Pod,, on a gig, is if I'm too old to tote an amp anymore, or I don't REALLY care about the nuances of tone in my rig. Maybe we should all dump our old ladies and buy an inflatible doll, too. Sorry, but it felt good to vent.

Scott S · April 11th, 2006, 02:16 AM

Keep your chin up, man. I don't see them sticking the singers in isolation booths just yet. Demand a little breathing room.

tiktok · April 11th, 2006, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott S

I don't see them sticking the singers in isolation booths just yet.

Keep hope alive, keep hope alive...

JohnnyCrash · April 11th, 2006, 05:03 AM

Tube amps have SUPPOSEDLY been "going the way of the Dinosaur" for a long time already now.

They said Rock and Roll was a fad that would die out in a few years... they said that back in the 50s.

Does sex ever get boring? Does a good meal ever get tiresome?

For nearly a decade Line 6 has supposedly been the harbinger of the tube amp's doom. BUT every time I've recorded, the PODs where only used for rough tracking - IF used at all... I never see the pro's using them at all on TV or at any concerts I go to.

That Bose system has not revolutionized any of the BIG NAME acts I've seen since it came out 4 or 5 years ago (and it's dropped in price since)... the only folks I see use it on a regular basis are the David Letterman show douche bags, but I still see tube amps at their two guitarists' feet.

If it sounds good, then it works - if it aint broke, then it won't get fixed... tubes are a technology that is, what? from the 30s-40s?

I'd say get a SM57 in front of that Champ, put it behind a plexiglass baffle and run the mic to the stupid Bose tower of terror - they're really not the beacon of sound curing that they've tried to claim since they came around.

If you're boss wants you to use a crap-sounding POD plugged into the Tower of Terror, then sound quality and good tone are NOT one of his priorities. If world class musicians and producers are not using it, then why should the working musician?

It's not "old geezer" stubborness to the "new-fangled technology" that's driving the pro's against it's prevalence of use - it's their ears (cause it certainly aint their pocket books - have you seen $ome of the high priced gear these guys are u$ing?!).

Tim Armstrong · April 11th, 2006, 06:56 AM

There are a few threads on the Bose system already, it's probably worthwhile to do a search.

It sounds like your band is a good-sized one, with horns and such. I'd be really interested to see if a Bose system would be suitable, or even usable, in a situation like that. For sure you're gonna need several of the towers, and one or more of the bass cabs too. That's gonna be EXPENSIVE!!!

Tim

Rob DiStefano · April 11th, 2006, 07:25 AM

IMO, the Bose system is absolutely killer for a gigging band and I pretty much echo what Brick sez. You gotta hear one and use one to appreciate what truly good stuff it offers.

But I sure wouldn't wanna give up a cool tube amp tone for that sterile s/s buzz.

Mebbe what's needed is a non-airtight "isolation cab" for small tube amps (i.e. - Champs et al), mic'd (SM57 et al) and stuck through the Bose "board". This muffler cab doesn't even hafta be onstage. In the best of worlds, getting the amp's controls (and any FX) lifted outboard of the isolation box would be the way to go, too. Some tube lovin' gigger will get it all figured out eventually - the Bose PA and tube amps are such good stuff - ya really do wanna use both. JMHO.

slincoln · April 11th, 2006, 09:12 AM

Rob, you've basically outlined what I see. Small amps, isolated. What's the harm? Maybe I'm just sensitive, but between the lines in the Bose talk, there seems to be a backlash against the "prime offenders", guitarists. It's as if they're saying, "we'll allow them to use one of these (a POD), and no one will ever have to worry about them being naughty, again. In light of their past volume attrocities, they can sacrifice real tone for the assurances of a safe bandstand".

saunders.jesse · April 11th, 2006, 10:08 AM

I could see the uproar if you were cranking a twin or even a deluxe, but all this over a 5 watt champ! As has been stated before, the horn players for sure and most likely even the singers put out that much volume before they hit a mic, so I don't see where the problem is.

Only you can know how far you're willing to push (and be pushed) around this issue though. My .02 is that an iso cab is probably overkill to tame a champ.

Rob DiStefano · April 11th, 2006, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saunders.jesse

I could see the uproar if you were cranking a twin or even a deluxe, but all this over a 5 watt champ! As has been stated before, the horn players for sure and most likely even the singers put out that much volume before they hit a mic, so I don't see where the problem is.

Only you can know how far you're willing to push (and be pushed) around this issue though. My .02 is that an iso cab is probably overkill to tame a champ.

Yeah, wide 'n' big live sound stuff like an R&B or big band (horns, b/u choral, etc.), probably ain't that conducive to the Bose PA, IMO - mo bettah for a blues/rock/pop/jazz trio to 5pc situation ...

slincoln · April 11th, 2006, 11:37 PM

So, I guess the answer to my original question about a DI, like the Behringer GI-100, or a Red Box, is that it won't work with a traditional Fender amp (that has no dedicated line out/preamp out)?

poboy · April 12th, 2006, 10:26 AM

You can use a "speaker direct" box that goes between the amp and the speaker and gives you an XLR line out.

I do it all the time with my Champ. I use a Peavey EDI box, but other vendors make similar products (and the better ones include speaker simulation).

I replaced the stock RCA jack on my Champ with a standard 1/4" jack-plug setup (it fits in the same hole), but you can also get adapter cables at Radio Shack if you don't want to mod the amp.

Dacious · April 12th, 2006, 12:24 PM

Stick a Shure 57 or similar unidirectional mic in front of the Champ just off the grille, pointing just inside the speaker rim. Jobs done. You will get whatever is coming out of the amp into the mixer, plus be able to hear it yourself.

Simple. Works.

David Barnett · April 12th, 2006, 02:43 PM

I still haven't seen the Bose system in actual use, apart from in-store demos. I was not impressed by those demos, since I found the basic tonal quality of the big stick to be lacking.

But from the pictures, it appears that the sticks are placed behind the performers? How do they keep vocal microphones from having massive feedback problems?

For the original questioner's ensemble, how would this system be deployed? How many members are there in the band, and how many Bose sticks would be used? I assume several members would be sharing sticks?

I don't see why a guitarist and/or bassist in a band using this system couldn't use a conventional amplifier, and just set his levels to match the rest of the band.

David Barnett · April 12th, 2006, 02:44 PM

ps: The emperor is naked.

JohnnyCrash · April 12th, 2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slincoln

Rob, you've basically outlined what I see. Small amps, isolated. What's the harm? Maybe I'm just sensitive, but between the lines in the Bose talk, there seems to be a backlash against the "prime offenders", guitarists. It's as if they're saying, "we'll allow them to use one of these (a POD), and no one will ever have to worry about them being naughty, again. In light of their past volume attrocities, they can sacrifice real tone for the assurances of a safe bandstand".

HAHA, that's a good way of putting it!

Yeah, us guitarists are notorious for overkill when it comes to volume in the onstage mix.

Like Joe Perry said, back in the old days we NEEDED 3 Marshall fullstacks, since they were pretty much the guitar's "PA system". Times have changed, everything is mic'ed and mixed.

I personally like the mic-and-mix method with lower watt amps - low watts sound better since they're closer to the sweet spot in dynamics and gain (even clean).

Still, the Tower of Terror for every musician is a nightmare scenario - lotsa money, lotsa extra crap to carry around...

BUT, if you've gotta do it, it sounds like you have the right idea - Champs are such great little amps!

April 10th, 2006, 07:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
slincoln TDPRI Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: TEXAS Posts: 91	Live sound using DI and a Fender Champ (questions) Hey guys. The bandleader I work for is seriously thinking about going with the new Bose Cylindrical Radiator loudspeakers in lieu of a tradtional PA. So, the bass player and I are being pushed to punt our amps, and go through an amp simulator into the Bose system. Well, I'm an old tube fart, but I do understand the need to get stage volume down. My question is, could I use my Fender Champ (low stage volume) into some kind of DI and then input into the Bose system? I was eyeing the Behringer GI-100 at MF. I assume the amp's speaker out plugs into the DI, then the DI has an output to an external device plus a speaker out for the internal speaker? Or, is the internal speaker just removed from the equation entirely? Any thoughts, comments are greatly appreciated. The bandleader thinks I ought to get a POD.......argh

April 10th, 2006, 08:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
TheBigKevDogg Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Santa Barbara, CA/USC Posts: 147 10 Photos	There are plenty of posts about this stuff over in the Sunday Morning Players section...churches can often be the hardest place to bring big n' loud tube amp into (or even an amp at all!) __________________ My Guitars (and Other Instruments) http://members.cox.net/thebigkevdogg/Guitars/Index.html

April 10th, 2006, 10:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
Dacious Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Godzone Posts: 2,623 35 Photos	It's very easy to fit a lineout off the speaker jack of any amplifier. If you can solder you can do it. You basically run a parallel socket like a speaker extension off the speaker jack and run a cable into the mixer. You need a 270 or thereabouts ohm resistor between the tip and ring (hot and ground) and a 2.2K resistor between the hot of the extension and the hot of the speaker jack. This will bleed a tiny amount of signal into the lineout without affecting sound through the speaker, sufficient for a mixer to take and amplify through the PA. A simpler solution is to stick an SM57 in front of the Champ and use it as your monitor. IMO you need to get the bandmaster to read this board. Rightsizing your amp setup with something like a Princeton Reverb is far more preferrable to playing through a POD, which is designed for recording, and a PA system which is not designed to reproduce electric guitar. Actually, rather than be forced to play through a POD I'd take out a contract on the bandmaster. But that's just me. __________________ My other Telecaster is a Thinline The Tele Bible, Ch 1, v 10 Love thy Telecaster, covet not thy neighbour's Strat!

April 11th, 2006, 12:27 AM	#9 (permalink)
Brick Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Jose Age: 58 Posts: 793	Reserch the Bose system guys I have been facinated by this concept, which if you haven't checked it out, requires each bandmember ( you could share, but I wouldn't) to buy a self contained amp/speaker setup. You do not use a PA in venues up to about 500 people. You do not use monitors. The speaker towers radiate sound 180 degrees, and musicians interact like they have for thousands of years when acoustic was the only way to go. The audience hears what the musicians hear. You do not depend on a soundman. Everyone knows where the sound is comming from because they are in front of their speaker. What this does do, is pretty much preclude the use of traditional amps unless you run an isolation box like the above posts suggest. My band has been running preamps to PA for gigs for a while now so we are already halfway there. PODs and the like thrive in this kind of situation. The down side is that we are forced to go against every tonemeister thought we have ever had, but as a band with 3 part harmonys, the vocal clarity in the mix and the ability to regulate the volume of bass, guitars, keys and yes, V drums, more than makes up for the lack of real amps. The better paying corporate gigs appreciate our ability to regulate our sound levels, and it is a joy to play with a great mix. The bummer is the three power amp, mains, monitors, mixers, oh and the two huge subwoofers we have to cart around. The Bose system is, guitar in one hand, your Bose system in the other, plug your stuff in, adjust your volumes and play. In 5 min. you are gone. Here's another catch. A Bose system by itself is worthless, more or less. I would only have a band own the setup collectively, with a buy out agreement should you leave. The band could then sell it to the next band member to join. Why would you invest two grand if the bandleader could just fire you at will? I have 5 tube amps, but believe me, we are becomming extinct, sooner or later. Check out the Bose website with an open mind. They have a lot of good ideas. Flatheads forever!

April 11th, 2006, 06:56 AM	#14 (permalink)
Tim Armstrong Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Berlin, Maryland, USA Age: 49 Posts: 10,260	There are a few threads on the Bose system already, it's probably worthwhile to do a search. It sounds like your band is a good-sized one, with horns and such. I'd be really interested to see if a Bose system would be suitable, or even usable, in a situation like that. For sure you're gonna need several of the towers, and one or more of the bass cabs too. That's gonna be EXPENSIVE!!! Tim __________________ http://www.moodswingers.org

April 10th, 2006, 09:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	You can't plug the speaker out jack into a DI. The output transformer will not like the impedance mismatch and it will die. There may be some attenuators that match the impedance loads (4ohms is fine on a 3.2 ohm Champ) and may also have a Line Out for this type of use. I'd baffle the Champ, mic it up, and run it into the Bose tower of terror... or just fire the band leader :)

April 10th, 2006, 09:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
slincoln TDPRI Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: TEXAS Posts: 91	Thanks, I'll snoop around the other sections, as well. I didn't make it seem that I HAVE to be silent on stage, apart from the Bose. I don't have to wind out the Champ to get a sound I like, I love mine at lower volume. I guess I need to understand the basic setup of a DI........ Amp----DI -----out to internal speaker ------out to mains (?)

April 11th, 2006, 01:21 AM	#10 (permalink)
slincoln TDPRI Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: TEXAS Posts: 91	Brick, your points are well taken, and are the exact reason that my bandleader is seriously ready to take the Bose plunge. I've heard the system, and it has tremendous merit. It may be the next "great thing". My point is, why can't I have my cake and eat it, too? Why not just stick a mic in front of a small amp? How much is a small amp (5 watts, come on now) going to spoil the sacrid Bose party? Is that 8" speaker in my Champ going to hurt somebody, in a ballroom, if I don't "open it up"? The horn players in my band can exist "in air" outside the Bose.....nobody is asking them to buy wind controllers. The singers don't have to telepathically transmit to the Bose. Why must I be dead silent before I reach "the pole"? :x I'm not arguing against anybody here, I guess I'm annoyed with the general premise that electric guitar players need to be totally controlled within this new Bose scheme of things. We must be punished for past crimes against eardrums. I guess, the Bose system is so great that we have to punt all the tone tools at our disposal....we can't even seriously scale down our rigs to accomodate it. Maybe Bose and Line 6 are a part of a larger global conspiracy to piss in our cheerios. :x Call me an old fart, but the only reason I can see to plug into a Pod,, on a gig, is if I'm too old to tote an amp anymore, or I don't REALLY care about the nuances of tone in my rig. Maybe we should all dump our old ladies and buy an inflatible doll, too. Sorry, but it felt good to vent.

April 11th, 2006, 02:16 AM	#11 (permalink)
Scott S Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SW CR IA US NA PE Age: 28 Posts: 1,916	Keep your chin up, man. I don't see them sticking the singers in isolation booths just yet. Demand a little breathing room.

April 11th, 2006, 05:03 AM	#13 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	Tube amps have SUPPOSEDLY been "going the way of the Dinosaur" for a long time already now. They said Rock and Roll was a fad that would die out in a few years... they said that back in the 50s. Does sex ever get boring? Does a good meal ever get tiresome? For nearly a decade Line 6 has supposedly been the harbinger of the tube amp's doom. BUT every time I've recorded, the PODs where only used for rough tracking - IF used at all... I never see the pro's using them at all on TV or at any concerts I go to. That Bose system has not revolutionized any of the BIG NAME acts I've seen since it came out 4 or 5 years ago (and it's dropped in price since)... the only folks I see use it on a regular basis are the David Letterman show douche bags, but I still see tube amps at their two guitarists' feet. If it sounds good, then it works - if it aint broke, then it won't get fixed... tubes are a technology that is, what? from the 30s-40s? I'd say get a SM57 in front of that Champ, put it behind a plexiglass baffle and run the mic to the stupid Bose tower of terror - they're really not the beacon of sound curing that they've tried to claim since they came around. If you're boss wants you to use a crap-sounding POD plugged into the Tower of Terror, then sound quality and good tone are NOT one of his priorities. If world class musicians and producers are not using it, then why should the working musician? It's not "old geezer" stubborness to the "new-fangled technology" that's driving the pro's against it's prevalence of use - it's their ears (cause it certainly aint their pocket books - have you seen $ome of the high priced gear these guys are u$ing?!).

April 11th, 2006, 07:25 AM	#15 (permalink)
Rob DiStefano Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Park Ridge, NJ Age: 63 Posts: 4,915	IMO, the Bose system is absolutely killer for a gigging band and I pretty much echo what Brick sez. You gotta hear one and use one to appreciate what truly good stuff it offers. But I sure wouldn't wanna give up a cool tube amp tone for that sterile s/s buzz. Mebbe what's needed is a non-airtight "isolation cab" for small tube amps (i.e. - Champs et al), mic'd (SM57 et al) and stuck through the Bose "board". This muffler cab doesn't even hafta be onstage. In the best of worlds, getting the amp's controls (and any FX) lifted outboard of the isolation box would be the way to go, too. Some tube lovin' gigger will get it all figured out eventually - the Bose PA and tube amps are such good stuff - ya really do wanna use both. JMHO.

April 11th, 2006, 09:12 AM	#16 (permalink)
slincoln TDPRI Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: TEXAS Posts: 91	Rob, you've basically outlined what I see. Small amps, isolated. What's the harm? Maybe I'm just sensitive, but between the lines in the Bose talk, there seems to be a backlash against the "prime offenders", guitarists. It's as if they're saying, "we'll allow them to use one of these (a POD), and no one will ever have to worry about them being naughty, again. In light of their past volume attrocities, they can sacrifice real tone for the assurances of a safe bandstand".

April 11th, 2006, 10:08 AM	#17 (permalink)
saunders.jesse Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 101 4 Photos	I could see the uproar if you were cranking a twin or even a deluxe, but all this over a 5 watt champ! As has been stated before, the horn players for sure and most likely even the singers put out that much volume before they hit a mic, so I don't see where the problem is. Only you can know how far you're willing to push (and be pushed) around this issue though. My .02 is that an iso cab is probably overkill to tame a champ. __________________ '72 Tele Custom RI & a Taylor 110 and I'm a happy guy!

April 11th, 2006, 11:37 PM	#19 (permalink)
slincoln TDPRI Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: TEXAS Posts: 91	So, I guess the answer to my original question about a DI, like the Behringer GI-100, or a Red Box, is that it won't work with a traditional Fender amp (that has no dedicated line out/preamp out)?

April 12th, 2006, 10:26 AM	#20 (permalink)
poboy TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 93	You can use a "speaker direct" box that goes between the amp and the speaker and gives you an XLR line out. I do it all the time with my Champ. I use a Peavey EDI box, but other vendors make similar products (and the better ones include speaker simulation). I replaced the stock RCA jack on my Champ with a standard 1/4" jack-plug setup (it fits in the same hole), but you can also get adapter cables at Radio Shack if you don't want to mod the amp.

April 12th, 2006, 12:24 PM	#21 (permalink)
Dacious Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Godzone Posts: 2,623 35 Photos	Stick a Shure 57 or similar unidirectional mic in front of the Champ just off the grille, pointing just inside the speaker rim. Jobs done. You will get whatever is coming out of the amp into the mixer, plus be able to hear it yourself. Simple. Works. __________________ My other Telecaster is a Thinline The Tele Bible, Ch 1, v 10 Love thy Telecaster, covet not thy neighbour's Strat!

April 12th, 2006, 02:43 PM	#22 (permalink)
David Barnett Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: LIttle Rock, AR Age: 52 Posts: 5,491	I still haven't seen the Bose system in actual use, apart from in-store demos. I was not impressed by those demos, since I found the basic tonal quality of the big stick to be lacking. But from the pictures, it appears that the sticks are placed behind the performers? How do they keep vocal microphones from having massive feedback problems? For the original questioner's ensemble, how would this system be deployed? How many members are there in the band, and how many Bose sticks would be used? I assume several members would be sharing sticks? I don't see why a guitarist and/or bassist in a band using this system couldn't use a conventional amplifier, and just set his levels to match the rest of the band.

April 12th, 2006, 02:44 PM	#23 (permalink)
David Barnett Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: LIttle Rock, AR Age: 52 Posts: 5,491	ps: The emperor is naked.