SF vs. boutique amp?

[Califiddler]

I've been doing some searches on the forum lately and reading a lot of posts where folks ask for advice re whether to buy PCB amps, eg. DRRI's. The standard response seems to be to buy an SF amp and have a tech check it out, replace caps, etc. The argument is usually that you can get eg. an SFDR for c. $700, spend a few hundred for the tech service and for c. $1,000 you have a hand-wired amp that will last a lifetime.

Well, from watching Ebay and craigslist, it seems that the cost of SF amps is no longer c. $700, but more like $1,100+. With a few hundred for tech service, this puts an SF amp in the same price range as an Allen amp, which is PTP hand-wired like the SF, but with some more modern features.

So this is my question: if the cost of say, an SFDR and an Allen Accomplice, or an SFVR and an Allen Encore, are comparable, which would you go for, and why?

[eryque]

There is also the argument that a vintage amp will probably appreciate in value, while a boutique amp probably will not.

[Thinline]

Really, just wondering; why wouldn't a boutique amp appreciate over time?

[cacibi]

I'm guessing they will - but probably only after they go out of production. I'm sure Reverends have already started to appreciate slightly for example - supply and demand.

[CancerLeoCam]

Originally Posted by Califiddler

So this is my question: if the cost of say, an SFDR and an Allen Accomplice, or an SFVR and an Allen Encore, are comparable, which would you go for, and why?

I don't know if they are comparable in circuitry/tone (maybe in power) without seeing schematics but that's the gamble. Dave has great rep so it's not like you won't have a quality product.

[stevieboy]

Accomplice vs SFDR for same basic money?

Accomplice, hands down. Tone is subjective of course, but the Accomplice is great in that department. Also, a lot more really usable features which give it a ton of versatility. Volume/master volume which gives a lot of variation between clean and driven, the "Raw" pot, which also gives a lot of variation in tone, and a tone control on the reverb, not earthshaking, but nice. Also, the ability to use 6V6's (22W) or 6L6's 35W) and it's really easy to bias without unscrewing anything. I think you can say pretty much the same about the Old Flame, different output numbers, of course.

Probably the SFDR will appreciate more, buying used is usually better than buying new as new things immediately lose some value, but if you're looking for an investment, buy stocks!

[Dacious]

Originally Posted by Thinline

Really, just wondering; why wouldn't a boutique amp appreciate over time?

No reason, except you can always buy a new one with warranty. Allen has a great rep but probably a 1,000 people worldwide know about them.

Buy a new current production amp: lose 30-50% of value instantly.

Used Dumbles sell for heaps. Mark Sampson-Era Matchless going up, too - still some ways to new price for most. Bad Cats going well due to use by big names.

[GopherTele]

I have 2 old Fenders and 2 boutiques and what I like abou the boutiques is that they offer the same tone as the Fenders, plus they are more versatile (6V's and 6L's) AND they always work.

A great amp I want to check out is the Clark Beaufort Special. It's a Deluxe tweed clone for $800.

That's a great deal anyway you slice it.

[/u]

[milocj]

why wouldn't a boutique amp appreciate over time?

This one is pretty easy, at least for starters. As long as the amp is still available new there would be no reason for someone to buy it used for more money. A couple people hit it with the Reverend and Matchless references where the amp is out of production, but it's still no guarantee. I don't think that Hellhounds appreciated much when the replacement was an "improved" version of it. It's a different story when the company is no longer in business or doesn't make something comparable anymore.

The rest of you question is sort of hard to answer completely without more information, plus I think the Allen makes it even more difficult because it's a very similar amp and it's an affordable boutique.

If you gig a lot and the couple of extra features or the warranty would make a difference to you it's probably well worth getting an Allen instead of a silverface Fender. Even assuming that the amp would depreciate 20% or so you might be out $250 over a couple of years. That's pretty cheap rent for a good piece of equipment. A 20% depreciation on a $3000 Matchless is a lot bigger hit out of your pocket book and would have bought over half of that used Fender, but that's not a comparable amp in tone or features. I guess a Carr would be similar though and it's a lot more than an Allen.

If you can get an SF Fender at a decent price and you don't need any other features it would be pretty hard not to eventually make at least some money on the amp in the future unless you trashed it. I don't gig a lot during the course of the year and I've got a couple of BF Fenders and a Bad Cat, plus I can re-cap and amp myself which saves a lot of the initial tech fees. Since I don't really need the additional features that a lot of the boutique amps have it makes more sense to me (at least in my case) to buy the PTP Fenders. They're an investment that I can enjoy as opposed to stocks or collecting interest and at least for the time being they seem to be bringing a better return than any stock or CD account.

Going back to your original statement, though, if someone's intent was originally to buy a new circuit board '65 DRRI or TRRI I think that buying a cosmetically challanged SF equivalent is a much better plan. You can still find good sounding SF amps that are mechanically sound, but have trashed grill cloth and some tears in the Tolex at good prices. These should be more reliable than the PCP Fender, will most likely sound better, and still most likely won't depreciate any in value. The more that collectors snap up the pretty ones, the easier it gets to sell the perfectly functioning ugly ones to people that just want to be able to own and play a good sounding reliable amp.

[CancerLeoCam]

...well done sir!

[Wild Rice Chris]

I've had two Allens, a B1uesboy, a Trace Elliot Velocette, and a HotBottle over the past year. Also, a '68 Bandmaster, '73 Vibrosonic Reverb, and '72 Deluxe Reverb. The VR and DR are the only 2 left (well, and that JCM800 I traded a bass for...). For me, the SF Fenders sound the best (yes, better than the Allens) and have the features I want (reverb, trem, good sound). I had new cabs built for the VR and DR, they look great as well as sounding great.

[stevieboy]

Originally Posted by Wild Rice Chris

For me, the SF Fenders sound the best (yes, better than the Allens) and have the features I want (reverb, trem, good sound).

Now that's the catch, and the tough part if you're trying to decide what to get. It really comes down to what's going to sound best to you, and if don't have them handy to compare, you've just got to take a leap of faith.

[sidneystreet]

Originally Posted by Wild Rice Chris

the SF Fenders sound the best (yes, better than the Allens) and have the features I want (reverb, trem, good sound)...

I'd appreciate it very much if you could elaborate a little on what you liked and didn't like about the two Allens you have tried. I'm contemplating another boutique amp purchase, and any extra input is helpful.

Thanks in advance.

[Wild Rice Chris]

Originally Posted by sidneystreet

I'd appreciate it very much if you could elaborate a little on what you liked and didn't like about the two Allens you have tried. I'm contemplating another boutique amp purchase, and any extra input is helpful.

Thanks in advance.

Mostly the breakup. The Allens had a gritiness to them that was not to my liking. This was with the master all the way up and the raw all the way off. Turning down the master had a castrating effect on the overall sound, and I just couldn't get them to sound how I wanted. I had a David-built Old Flame 1x15" and KBR's Old Flame head. Also, they would get loud without sounding loud. The lack of trem wasn't a real problem (I have a great trem pedal). I spent 2 months with the 1x15" and 3 months with the head, so it wasn't a rushed conclusion. I tried the head through an EVM-15L, pair of Bag End S-15D cabs, Rhodes 2x12" with Eminence speakers, and a few other cabs. The final decision maker was when I got the Vibrosonic Reverb. I tried the OF through the VR cab and speaker and was not impressed. The VR was fatter, warmer, more responsive, and didn't exhibit any grittiness. I should add that I like things loud and clean. I come from a string bass background, where you play quieter during quiet passages and louder during loud passages, not with a volume knob. Someone who is trying to cop their favorite guitar tones off a record would be happier with the amp than me. Many of the "classic" guitar sounds leave me cold and uninterested. Bottom line is to find one to play before you buy it. That's how I ended up with the SF Fenders. I liked my dad's Twin (3-channel 90's model) on the clean side, I love 15" speakers, and the Vibrosonic is a Twin with a 15" and a lower price tag. I have also spent some quality time with a '72 Deluxe Reverb, which is why I ended up with mine. If I want dirty, I play through the DR and turn it all the way up.

Hope that helps more than it hurts! 8)

[Durango Twango]

For me it was format. I wanted a Bassman level of power (small enough for the house, big enough for small venues) and a single 12 with reverb. There was no such vinatge piece. So, with the help of a friend, I found a Penn amp that just "fits" and put in my favorite speaker. Since I bought it used, it cost me less than it would to build the equivalent.

I also got a little leary of depending on 30+ year old parts - by buying a new build, I fealt like I lessened the odds of a crash. I played Fender's for years and really never had a problem myself, but I sure saw a lot of guys have issues with their amps. For my way of thinking, a newly built point to point amp that fills a particular need - often with parts that surpass the vintage production standards by a long way - is a very practical way to go.

[endzone]

I've been asking this same question. I have been looking for a SF Princeton or Deluxe Reverb. I have come to one conclusion...I will not buy one on Ebay. I believe the bubble is going to pop on vintage equipment mainly because it was created by Ebay. It may take a little longer but it's going to happen. In the meantime, I'll continue to look around and keep my eyes open as deals are still out there. You just have to be patient and lucky.

[sidneystreet]

Originally Posted by Wild Rice Chris

...Bottom line is to find one to play before you buy it. That's how I ended up with the SF Fenders. I liked my dad's Twin (3-channel 90's model) on the clean side, I love 15" speakers, and the Vibrosonic is a Twin with a 15" and a lower price tag. I have also spent some quality time with a '72 Deluxe Reverb, which is why I ended up with mine. If I want dirty, I play through the DR and turn it all the way up.

Hope that helps more than it hurts! 8)

I really appreciate the detailed review. I think our tastes in amps appear very similar, so your feedback is particularly helpful. I hope to get the chance to audition an Allen amp eventually, I'd like to compare the Accomplice to a SF Deluxe Reverb.

[Vol. Knob]

Ask yourself this question:

"What am I buying an amp for?"


If you want to plug your favorite tele in and enjoy some great guitar tones, then buy whatever sounds good. If you want to buy something that goes up in value, then buy an old vintage peice and don't play through it. Besides, chances are that any vintage amp you buy is gonna have a handful of aftermarket parts in it since tubes and capacitors burn out and need to be replaced after a while.

I've had booteek and I've currently got vintage. I like my Silverface Pro better than any of them (except for my Crate Vintage Club with a 15 incher, but it's neither booteek or vintage). The Pro has been bf'd and aftermarket speakers and sounds killer. Besides, I don't think having a Silverface hurts their resalve value, I think it helps.

That said, I had a booteek deluxe copy that was amazing, sold it for what I bought it for years later. I almost bought a booteek Vox copy that sang like angels.

[Wild Rice Chris]

Some of those Crate VC amps are killer! I had a Vintage Club 50 with 3 10s that was way cool. Blonde tolex...I'm starting to see a pattern here... I traded it and a strat for a tele...good deal.

[sidneystreet]

Originally Posted by Vol. Knob

If you want to plug your favorite tele in and enjoy some great guitar tones, then buy whatever sounds good.

Awesome advice!

I am not looking for investment opportunites in audio gear. I only care about inspiring tone. Sometimes it comes in those rare combinations of equipment. My fav all time amp for sitting around pickin' is my early 70's Woodson transistor amp. I will never part with it. My boutique stuff sounds "better" by most standards, but I find myself playing longer, and more creatively through that old amp. Go figure?