Help me decide, Princeton? <-- HUGE chance paid off!!!

[Rizo]

After not having been terribly satisfied with my Blues Junior for a while now, I'm thinking of selling off some gear and picking up an older PTP Fender Amp. I'm thinking I can scrape up $200-$300

I'm thinking about either a Champ/Vibro Champ/Bronco, Princeton/Princeton Reverb or Musicmaster Bass amp. I know there are guys around here who have these amps, but I'd like to know how they stack up. I'm going for an overdriven, twangy, alt-country type sound, but with some traditional elements ala Luther Perkins.

Champ- Small, light, probably in my price range. Is there any reason not to go this route?

Princeton- Bigger, won't distort at living room levels, will probably blow the budget. Other than a little more resale/speaker size, is this justifiably better than a champ considering the cost?

MMB- Basically a champ, bigger speaker, but will it twang? I hear it's a blues amp. How much do you sacrifice with just the one tone control and oh yeah, will it twang? (Gotta have my twang).

Can anyone offer their take on why one is better than any of the others? I'm not looking to mod anything too much either, and I realize any of these will need a checkup. Fender made so many good little amps once upon a time, I'm having a hard time deciding.

[Durtdog]

I have a Vibro Champ and an MMB. I would recommend the MMB without hesitation. Bigger sound than my Champ, great clean to slightly hairy sounds and much louder, too. I think it twangs better too, depending on the speaker you have in it. In either amp, you will definitely want to replace the speaker.

[CancerLeoCam]

well,
I think you'd stay @ budget with a VChamp. A MMB seems to be essentially a Princeton w/ a 12-though I've never played one. In addition, replacement parts may be a bit harder to acquire. I would stick with the VC as you get free trem and you can always upgrade to a 10" speaker or get a new cab with a 12 or even a 15! Just make sure the chassis is in good condition. Though you may get the chassis at or a hair under budget some necessary refurbishing/upgrades will push the price tag up $100 more. Gluck.

[popthree]

when i play thru it i frequently wish for a touch more clean headroom. if i were going to own 1 amp, i'd go for the princeton (if blowing the budget is an option) or keep a watchful eye on ebay for a good deal on a MMB. keep in mind that you'll probably end up buying some reverb at some point too....holy grail or whatever.... that considered, the princeton reverb would be the best overall...but they do tend fetch a high price.

just my .02

[dean]

Having owned all of those amps, my favorite has always been the Princeton or Princeton Reverb followed by the Vibro Champ. But I think $200-$300 will get you a Champ or maybe a VC. Unless you stumble into a great deal, the Princeton may not fall in that range. The MMB might be the best way to go because of the flexibility of speaker size.

Good luck,
Dean

[dean]

Sorry about the double

[jdfoosh357]

for under $300 i usually only see champs/v.champs. but they sound great. i put in an 8" weber alnico speaker------huge improvement

[Rizo]

So far sounds like 2 votes for the MMB, 2 for the champ/vibro champ and 1 for the princeton.

[3StringGuitar]

Humm well I had a choice between a Pro Jr. and an MMB and have been convincined to get the MMB. If you look down the list of threads you'll find mine that goes rather in depth about the MMB and differnt mods and speaker choices. So I'd vote MMB :) Oh and if you get one make sure it's the 6V6 version as opposed to the 6AQ5 one.

[WickedGTR]

If you use reverb, I'd vote for the Princeton Reverb. No pedal can give you the spring reverb sound.

[BradKM]

I'm going for an overdriven, twangy, alt-country type sound, but with some traditional elements ala Luther Perkins.

The first time I plugged my Princeton Reverb in, the sound I got was "Yesterday's News" from Whiskeytown's "Stranger's Almanac" album, if that means anything to you. It's also my go-to amp for Cash tunes.

I've got a PR and a Champ, and have spent a lot of time with all of the other amps on your list. I'd love to own all of them, but the two I do have cover my bases pretty well...right now.

The problem with the Champ, VC, and Bronco will be headroom. A Princeton (non-verb) will have more headroom, but won't distort like you want it to.

The PR will also give you 'verb and trem...which come in handy for the styles you mentioned.

[Tremo]

Originally Posted by 3StringGuitar

Humm well I had a choice between a Pro Jr. and an MMB and have been convincined to get the MMB. If you look down the list of threads you'll find mine that goes rather in depth about the MMB and differnt mods and speaker choices. So I'd vote MMB :) Oh and if you get one make sure it's the 6V6 version as opposed to the 6AQ5 one.

What do you have against 6AQ5s? There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 6AQ5 version, they sound great.

[Rizo]

The first time I plugged my Princeton Reverb in, the sound I got was "Yesterday's News" from Whiskeytown's "Stranger's Almanac" album, if that means anything to you. It's also my go-to amp for Cash tunes.

For a guy with a Whiskeytown lyrics as his signiture, yeah that means something.

What do you have against 6AQ5s? There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 6AQ5 version, they sound great.

What are the tonal difference between a 6AQ5 and a 6V6 or a 6L6 for that matter?

Looks like we're all tied up with opions (2 each for each model). LOL, you guys are no help at all! (J/K, actually you guys are a great help and I appreciate every bit of it.)

[BradKM]

To make it even more complicated...

Prices on Princeton Reverbs are crazy right now. You can buy used DRRIs and in some cases, SFDRs for less.

I was lucky to stumble across mine at a great price. I could easily sell it now for much more than I paid less than a year ago, even though it's a later silver face with a pull-boost (making it less desireable to a lot of folks), but the amp just sounds too good. It's a real keeper.

[OaklandA]

Well, I have 2 Champs and a MMB, so given what style and tone you're going for I'd say go with a MMB with a speaker that will give you the headroom and twang factor you'll need.

The Champs are awesome but they are a lot raunchier and less twangier.

The 6v6 version is a bit better, but you'll probably like the 6aq5 version just fine too. If you use the JAN GE 6AQ5 / 6005's you'll get a nice tone. Those tubes are still easy to find and cheap, too. I happened across a pair of Mullard 6aq5's (EL90) myself, which sound really good.

I've seen MMB's for right at $200 recently on eBay, so they're still cheap too.

Good luck.

[OaklandA]

[quote="Rizo"]

What are the tonal difference between a 6AQ5 and a 6V6 or a 6L6 for that matter?

To expand on that a bit more....I don't think there's a huge difference. The 6aq5 is a 7 pin mini pentode version of the 6v6. I don't know what Fender's reasoning was for changing from one to the other.

With the 6v6 you get much more of a variety of tube choice which is a factor. I've heard that a set of JJ's in a MMB sounds pretty darn good.

I found mine, without a speaker, for $115. Couldn't pass that up and I'm glad I didn't. I really like this amp...and though I sure don't need another amp, if a 6v6 version crossed my path for the right price i might buy it.

IMO, I wouldn't turn away from a good one just because it had 6aq5's.

[Kelsey]

I have a '69 Champ, a '76 Princeton (non-reverb), and a late 70's MMB with 6V6s. They all have a similar flavor with the stock speakers, but I have replaced the speakers in each of them, and they are now quite different from each other in tone and volume.

I would say that the Champ with a P8R Jensen RI is just as loud as the Princeton with a Weber 10F150T. At low volumes, the Champ is pretty clean, but it gets gritty and overdriven as you get past 4 or 5 on the vol. The Princeton stays clean nearly to 10 on the vol. The MMB with Eminence Cannabis Rex sounds MUCH louder than the other two, and has a much fuller tone. The MMB stays clean to about 4 on the vol and then overdrives beautifully -- it reminds me of my tweed Deluxe (until I actually plug into the Deluxe ).

I like the way the Champ and MMB sound with my Fulldrive 2 and Bad Bob Boost pedals, but I really don't like the tone of the Princeton with these pedals. So I guess I would take an MMB or Champ over the Princeton. However, I am primarily a blues player, so you must factor that in.

[CancerLeoCam]

....is that with a tweaked Princeton Reverb, through a 15" speaker, you can actually play bass through and it sounds great. A touch of reverb too is cool but I don't recommend using the trem-pretty heavy.

Prices on BFPR's are fairly high ($850 and up) whereas the SF's are around $550. After speaker changes, tubes, caps and cap can you're looking at $250 plus on top of the price.

Given you're budget I would really hone in on the VC. Since I own one, I will tell you that the amp is awesome at 4 and under on the volume knob. Any higher and you're asking for dirt. My G-Reverb (PR-type clone) at 1.5 on the knob sounds like 4 on my VC. It stays super clean for a long time. gluck.

[maestrovert]

Champ

need more oomph ? run it into a (1x or 2x)12" cab, matching impedence, natch....

[red57strat]

I'd go with the Princeton.

When I bought my Princeton Reverb I stopped using my Vibrochamp completely.

In my opinion, a Princeton is the smallest amp that has the same type of sound as the bigger Fender amps.

A champ does not.

Don

[BradKM]

In my opinion, a Princeton is the smallest amp that has the same type of sound as the bigger Fender amps.

A champ does not.

I agree.

I almost always run my Champ through a 2x10 cab to beef up it's sound. That rig is one of my all time favorites...but it won't get the sounds you say you're after. There simply isn't enough headroom.

Are you planning on gigging with the amp you buy? Do you own amps other than the Blues Junior you'll be selling to help finance this?

Answering those questions could help us steer you towards an amp that's not on your list, but may take you where you want to go, in terms of both sonics and finance.

[3StringGuitar]

Originally Posted by Tremo

What do you have against 6AQ5s? There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 6AQ5 version, they sound great.

It was more that 6AQ5's are getting harder to come by and you tend to have less of a choice. I've also heard..heard that their reliability is not as well. Sorry if I upset you, I'm just going on the personal knowledge I have on it. :)

[Rizo]

Are you planning on gigging with the amp you buy? Do you own amps other than the Blues Junior you'll be selling to help finance this?

I'm not going to sell the BJ, I like the sounds I get out of it for a blues-ish tone and it has it's place so I think I'll keep it as a back up. I'm selling off an Epiphone amp (my previous backup) and an acoustic guitar I don't play much since I bought my Alavarez.

I am not gigging right now as such, but I would like to in the (preferably near) future so that is a factor. I'm talking with a guy halfway across the country who's selling a SF Princeton Reverb but wants 400 plus shipping. It's beat up from what I can tell from the pics, so I think that's a touch high, so I'm trying to talk him down a bit. I would like to have the PR because of the verb and trem, but would settle for a MMB, or a VC with a bigger speaker. You guys are the worst thing for GAS ever...

[BradKM]

$400 is a decent price these days, if it's working.

I'd buy it at that price, even if I had to sit on it a while to scrape up the dough for a cap job and new speaker...which it might not need.

[3StringGuitar]

Is there an easy w