Change the iron in the bassman output transformer?

lydian · August 25th, 2005, 06:37 PM

Help,
yesterday a tech guy told me that the old iron he has sound sweeter than my MM ot iron. each plate of the old iron has a flame like flame maple wood. they are heavier and much much thinner than mercury magnetics plates
He took them from highend integrated amp from 60' era.
they're 40 watts made in USA
He siad about 20% tone improvement and ask 75 bucks for material and labor.
So i'm thingking about change them for my mercury magnetics OT that i'm going to put in my 1991 59'RI bassman
Please tell me if you know about the iron in the old OT and should I change or not.
thank you guys.

I will post the result later.

my 59'RI Bassman mod project
MM OT(not sure about the iron core swapping.)
MM choke
nos mustard caps
phillips resistor
GE 12ay7
mullard12ax7
Brimar12ax7
Valvo GZ34
hanwired

Ben Harmless · August 25th, 2005, 08:14 PM

First, welcome!

My thought is: What exactly constitutes a 20% tonal improvement? Is it brighter, smoother, tighter, looser, ballsier, more headroom, less headroom, crunchier, cleaner, bluer, browner, inner, outer, fresher, woodier, shinier, slicker, grittier, fuzzier, mushier, quieter, louder, upper, downer, side to side, or just back in time?

Tone is like that. You know this; you've got a mod project. Unless you can get a specific guarantee of performance, with money back if you're not satisfied (which you won't get) then I wouldn't bother. If he can't tell you exactly what it's going to do, then how does he know it will help?

Personally, I'd bet you'll get a much more noticable tonal "improvement" by switching your jewel light to purple. Everybody knows that purple is the tone color.

Joe-Bob · August 25th, 2005, 08:25 PM

It does seem a little like a unsubstantiated claim. If the tranny you have now is no good, replace it. I don't think replacing the just plates would do anything constructive.

Rick S · August 26th, 2005, 02:26 AM

I like Ben's response, it really relays what we are up against on something like this.

I have to really read between the lines on lydian's post, but I think I have a pretty good idea of what's up here.

I think the tech's idea is to substitute a directional grain lam, probably M6 or M4, in the Mercury Magnetics transformer. So, now what to expect when doing this.

This type of core material is often used in high end audio stuff, reason...it's more efficient, reduced core losses. So does this equate to better performance? Well, in the audiophile world, many would think so, but you have to remember that in guitar amps, efficiency is way down the list in performance goals. Often, efficiency can come at the cost of what I call "funk factor" that is responsible for a lot of the character we want in guitar amps. Big difference in hi-fi and hi-funk.

Reading further between the lines, I would almost wager that this tech may have more background in the audiophile stuff than guitar amps.

It seems that lydian was left with the impression that the Mercury Magnetics transformer was made with the wrong material. This isn't true.

I think you will find that among guitar players the consensus would be that the 5F6-A is one of the best amps ever produced and the Triad 45249 output transformer is key to it's tonal character. Mercury Magnetics has gone to the lengths necessary, including metallurgy aspects, to properly reproduce these transformers to perform as the originals. This is what you pay for when you buy these as compared to the cheap import "replacement" units.

In my opinion, going to a M6 core in this transformer is a step in the very wrong direction.

Daddy Elmis · August 26th, 2005, 09:35 AM

Ben nails it. Reading a lot of reviews/mod posts about Bassmans and you find that MM trannies get very high marks, so I 'm not sure what improvement your tech's OT would bring.

I just love that "20% improvement in tone" line. I've got to remember that one.

lydian · August 26th, 2005, 11:40 AM

thank you. I won't swap it.

trdlasvegas · August 26th, 2005, 12:42 PM

If your looking to spend some money I got some "beach front" property for sale here in Nevada.

sorry couldn't resist.

-Tony

Wild Rice Chris · August 31st, 2005, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick S

Often, efficiency can come at the cost of what I call "funk factor" that is responsible for a lot of the character we want in guitar amps. Big difference in hi-fi and hi-funk.

Hi-funk is my new favorite amp descriptor.
Thanks Rick

August 25th, 2005, 06:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
lydian NEW MEMBER! Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2	Change the iron in the bassman output transformer? Help, yesterday a tech guy told me that the old iron he has sound sweeter than my MM ot iron. each plate of the old iron has a flame like flame maple wood. they are heavier and much much thinner than mercury magnetics plates He took them from highend integrated amp from 60' era. they're 40 watts made in USA He siad about 20% tone improvement and ask 75 bucks for material and labor. So i'm thingking about change them for my mercury magnetics OT that i'm going to put in my 1991 59'RI bassman Please tell me if you know about the iron in the old OT and should I change or not. thank you guys. I will post the result later. my 59'RI Bassman mod project MM OT(not sure about the iron core swapping.) MM choke nos mustard caps phillips resistor GE 12ay7 mullard12ax7 Brimar12ax7 Valvo GZ34 hanwired

August 25th, 2005, 08:14 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ben Harmless Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany, NY US of A Posts: 3,374 12 Photos	First, welcome! My thought is: What exactly constitutes a 20% tonal improvement? Is it brighter, smoother, tighter, looser, ballsier, more headroom, less headroom, crunchier, cleaner, bluer, browner, inner, outer, fresher, woodier, shinier, slicker, grittier, fuzzier, mushier, quieter, louder, upper, downer, side to side, or just back in time? Tone is like that. You know this; you've got a mod project. Unless you can get a specific guarantee of performance, with money back if you're not satisfied (which you won't get) then I wouldn't bother. If he can't tell you exactly what it's going to do, then how does he know it will help? Personally, I'd bet you'll get a much more noticable tonal "improvement" by switching your jewel light to purple. Everybody knows that purple is the tone color. __________________ "I think I'll go for the life of sin, followed by the last-minute, presto-change-o, deathbed repentance." - B. Simpson

August 25th, 2005, 08:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
Joe-Bob Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Age: 46 Posts: 4,016	It does seem a little like a unsubstantiated claim. If the tranny you have now is no good, replace it. I don't think replacing the just plates would do anything constructive. __________________ "German is the language God uses when He really means business." --FZ

August 26th, 2005, 09:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
Daddy Elmis Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: USA Posts: 961	Ben nails it. Reading a lot of reviews/mod posts about Bassmans and you find that MM trannies get very high marks, so I 'm not sure what improvement your tech's OT would bring. I just love that "20% improvement in tone" line. I've got to remember that one. __________________ Elwood: Good evening ladies and gentlemen, we're sure glad to be here in Cocomo tonight. We're the Good Ole' Blues Brothers Boys Band from Chicago. I sure hope you like our show. I'm Elwood, this here's my brother Jake.

August 26th, 2005, 11:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
lydian NEW MEMBER! Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2	thank you thank you. I won't swap it.

August 26th, 2005, 02:26 AM	#4 (permalink)
Rick S Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 494	I like Ben's response, it really relays what we are up against on something like this. I have to really read between the lines on lydian's post, but I think I have a pretty good idea of what's up here. I think the tech's idea is to substitute a directional grain lam, probably M6 or M4, in the Mercury Magnetics transformer. So, now what to expect when doing this. This type of core material is often used in high end audio stuff, reason...it's more efficient, reduced core losses. So does this equate to better performance? Well, in the audiophile world, many would think so, but you have to remember that in guitar amps, efficiency is way down the list in performance goals. Often, efficiency can come at the cost of what I call "funk factor" that is responsible for a lot of the character we want in guitar amps. Big difference in hi-fi and hi-funk. Reading further between the lines, I would almost wager that this tech may have more background in the audiophile stuff than guitar amps. It seems that lydian was left with the impression that the Mercury Magnetics transformer was made with the wrong material. This isn't true. I think you will find that among guitar players the consensus would be that the 5F6-A is one of the best amps ever produced and the Triad 45249 output transformer is key to it's tonal character. Mercury Magnetics has gone to the lengths necessary, including metallurgy aspects, to properly reproduce these transformers to perform as the originals. This is what you pay for when you buy these as compared to the cheap import "replacement" units. In my opinion, going to a M6 core in this transformer is a step in the very wrong direction.

August 26th, 2005, 12:42 PM	#7 (permalink)
trdlasvegas Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lost Wages, Nevada Posts: 205	If your looking to spend some money I got some "beach front" property for sale here in Nevada. sorry couldn't resist. -Tony __________________ www.trdpartsonline.com www.thermalrelief.com