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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Low efficiency 12" speakers for Deluxe Reverb.

I bought a 76 SFDR recently (other than having its speaker swapped out it had never been touched internally ... I recapped it, and its very lively now), and it came with a higher efficiency legend speaker in it. I'm looking for an outstanding low efficiency speaker for the amp that will tame just a bit of the highs, but still have tight bass. I primarily play blues, rockabilly, and surf, but I still need it to twang.

The Legend doesn't sound bad (I actually have a legend 10" in another amp, and like it, but it is efficient), but the amp is louder than I want with it in it, and one of the reason I got this amp was to get that sweet spot at a bit lower volumes. I'm tempted to try a mess of 8ohm organ speakers (if I can find them), but I'm sure someone here has had the same dilemma, and can steer me in the right direction for my search.


I'm also looking for a low efficiency 10" speaker that will retain the power of the legend's bass response for another amp. I'm thinking some of the Jensen speakers are pretty low efficiency, but I don't know if they will hold the tone I want or have the bass response.

The local store here has the ability to allow me to try out anything Eminence makes, but they don't have much in the way of other speakers.

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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:27 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Stick a Les Luis Pedal up front. I used to do that successfully take the bark off several 40-60 watt Fender amps.

I have a 50s Alnico Oxford that made my SF Princeton sound like a 5 wstt amp that would not break up sounded excellent, bit loud, not. Not that it was loud per say when I put a Weber 10F150T in it, but it was a lot louder with the Weber than the old oxford. Also had some older jensend that where not very efficient, C12Rs.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:31 AM   #3 (permalink)
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BTW, look at this chart on eminence drivers. http://www.parts-express.com/resources/emisens.html

It show the sensitivity figures at different frequencies, Something to consider. A given driver may be 90db @ 2k but 98db @ 3.5k...

I'd also suggest you have this conversation with the folks at Weber. i will be money they will have a speaker more suited to that need...

Also google "Eminence Maverick FDM" I have no idea how those sound...
but a possible solution... And if based on the legend probably a good DR speaker perhaps...

Look at this graph:

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Old December 23rd, 2012, 12:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Interesting post because I'm in the same boat. I have a 1980 SFDR and it's LOUD. I'm sure it has to do partially with the Weber 12F150 in it so I'm also curious about an option for a low efficiency speaker. There are plenty of threads on speakers but it seems everyone recommends speakers that are way high in sensitivity. Unfortunately it seems like most of the new production speakers are pretty efficient.

I found some recommendations on the Jensen P12Q which I've been considering. Sensitivity is 95db and you would think that would knock the volume down a bit. Just might take some getting used to tonally compared to what you or I have in our amps right now.

BTW, I have Eminence Copperheads in my blackface Vibrolux. That's a good 10 inch speaker that's not shrill and doesn't seem overly loud. Definitely tightened up the bass response compared to the farty Oxfords that were in that amp when I bought it. That could be something to look into if you're on the hunt for a decent 10 inch speaker.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 01:15 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Consider the Eminence Maverick or Reignmaker speakers. They have a 9db attenuation dial built in... I use a pair of reignmakers in a Velocette twin, the feature comes in most handy. Have your cake and eat it too, in a way.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 01:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjalla View Post
Consider the Eminence Maverick or Reignmaker speakers. They have a 9db attenuation dial built in... I use a pair of reignmakers in a Velocette twin, the feature comes in most handy. Have your cake and eat it too, in a way.

Tell us your observations on what these sound like. I get a real Legend probability, or is this just wishful thinking...
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The reignmaker is the British/Celestion voiced model - if you're going for US/Jensen it'd be the Maverick but I have not tried that speaker. My comment was more from the functionality aspect. The speaker is darker and warmer when dialed down the full 9db cut, but also tames the overall heft and throw of a cranked amp.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The reignmaker is the British/Celestion voiced model - if you're going for US/Jensen it'd be the Maverick but I have not tried that speaker. My comment was more from the functionality aspect. The speaker is darker and warmer when dialed down the full 9db cut, but also tames the overall heft and throw of a cranked amp.
Seems like a reasonable solution to an overly bright amp, like a DRRI. Question is does it take the tone to a even further departure from a SFDR, or close the gap. Or worse [for me] bring the tone to an even newer place a cheap pedal could get you to. ;) I jest, well 1/2 jest really...
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 09:38 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Actually, another outstanding speaker I can recommend is a weber 12A125-O (P12QR if you find an early one). That smooth cone is so vibey to play, and the smaller alnico magnet keeps things from being too efficient. I sold mine because I didn't have an amp application but tonally its one of my favorite weber models.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 04:01 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I had an Eminence legend 1228K in mine for quite a while. Low efficiency. Great speaker. If I was going to just use this amp for blues it would still be in it but I recently changed it out as I need something tighter/higher efficiency in that amp right now.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 04:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Have you seen Weber's DT-12. https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/dt12.html I have DT15 on the way for my SF DR. It is supposed to be inefficient with warm highs.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 12:27 PM   #12 (permalink)
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DT Series, not been over to the W/SVT site in quite a while... Interesting...

A youtube of this speaker exists. The author refers to the DT as the Derick Truck Speaker FWIW. "dt-10 speaker that I have installed in my 1968 fender champ."

hmmm, kind of sounds like a speaker with the dome torn out, which is another idea. ;O

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Old December 24th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The Weber DT got me thinking, I bet the mid 60s smooth cone Alnico Cleveland I got would be worth a try for the task.. ;)
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Old December 24th, 2012, 01:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Use a 5y3 rectifier. Bias it a little hotter.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 01:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I'm sure this has been beat to death , however my two favorite speakers for DRRI's were the Cannabis Rex (super smooth highs) and the Weber 12A150 sweet warm speaker !

The one vintage Fender I have not owned in blackface or silverface is a Deluxe Reverb
I had both a victoria and a kit 5E3 that both had the weber 12A150 in them and sounded excellent !
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Old December 24th, 2012, 01:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I'm sure this has been beat to death , however my two favorite speakers for DRRI's were the Cannabis Rex (super smooth highs) and the Weber 12A150 sweet warm speaker !

The one vintage Fender I have not owned in blackface or silverface is a Deluxe Reverb
I had both a victoria and a kit 5E3 that both had the weber 12A150 in them and sounded excellent !
The Cannabis Rex sounds great for sure but it's a 102 dB speaker...

Phil.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 01:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Pretty much all guitar speakers are high efficiency, they are for "public address". They're all up there at over 90dB.

Otoh hi-fi speakers are low efficiency.
The average 5W guitar amp will down a domestic 40+40W hi-fi - speaker efficiency

So if you want, you can run your amp into an old (cof) hi-fi speaker of sufficient/excess power handling and correct impedance. The latter is important.
I have done this. I seem to collect these speaker boxes over the years. The result is you can crank the amp up pretty high but whether you likes the result is erm, debatable.

Slightly OT - going the other way ... I have just rigged up the "Christmas music" from laptop iTunes through the TonePort into the Denon hi-fi "studio monitor" (PMA350SE 50W per) into a pair of 12-in Celestion in ext cabs. High efficiency guitar speakers. In the parlour - had to drop input and output levels right down.
Result not bad, jukebox-like, but very loud!
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Old December 24th, 2012, 01:53 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Old December 24th, 2012, 02:14 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robt57 View Post
BTW, look at this chart on eminence drivers. http://www.parts-express.com/resources/emisens.html

It show the sensitivity figures at different frequencies, Something to consider. A given driver may be 90db @ 2k but 98db @ 3.5k...

I'd also suggest you have this conversation with the folks at Weber. i will be money they will have a speaker more suited to that need...

Also google "Eminence Maverick FDM" I have no idea how those sound...
but a possible solution... And if based on the legend probably a good DR speaker perhaps...

Look at this graph:

That's actually the graph showing the effects of using the attenuation knob on one of the adjustable Eminence speakers tjalla mentions.

It's also a fairly typical guitar speaker chart. If you look at most speaker response charts they'll have a quite similar shape. The speakers efficiency rating is an average of the total energy it puts out with 1 watt input with test tones. it's kind of a rough guide as to what to expect in the real world. In general though, if a given speaker has a lower rating, it will have less output with a given amp at a particular volme setting. Most likely, though, when you change a speaker, you're going to get a change in tone, as well.

If you look at why the lower effciency speakers are lower efficiency, you usually discover there's a valley in the 100 Hz to 1Khz area, which is exactly where most of the fundamental frequencies lie on a guitar. Here's a curve from a Jensen P12Q re-issue:



Compare this to a Celestion Alnico Blue, for example, and you'll find the Celestion almost dead flat at 100db from 100Hz to 1Khz.

One thing I'd be careful with is that it's sometimes difficult to copmpare speakers from different manufacturers as there really isn't a standard way to measure speakers, here's a helpful explanation from Big Tony at Eminence:

http://www.eminence.com/2010/09/understanding-spl/

I also think you should try Fezz's suggestion before anything else as you might find that fixes your "problem" fairly easily.

Last edited by fauxsuper; December 24th, 2012 at 06:55 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The new celestion Creamback G12M-65. 97db sensitivity with an "M" or medium size magnet. Very warm and smooth right out of the box.

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