Lo power twin opinions please

[tweeddeluxe]

Hey guys, here's my problem. I have de-farted Deluxe clone that sounds great with a tele as expected. But, it has insufficient headroom. I also built a Marshall 18 watt clone with 2 10" Weber blue pups that is by far my favorite amp ever. Amazing overdrive, great clean at lower volumes, tight bass, guitar and effects friendly, etc--except, it also has little clean headroom.

I've begun rehearsing with a band that plays covers of classic rock, blues, and a little country. I'm lacking spanky cleans at practice volumes. Oh, besides two teles I also play a les paul clone.

I've been considering either the lo-power twin, JTM45 and 5F6 Bassman circuit for my next build. Really don't want to lug a 4x10 cab around.

Is the lo-power twin a good choice? Can anyone describe its sound?

Thanks

Tom

[Jim Collins]

One of my amps is a Victoria low powered, tweed Twin. It sports Reverend Alltone 1250 speakers. (This particular amp was originally built with Celestion V30s -- Vickie has always offered those as an upgrade. I bought the amp used. The Celestions were a bit on the bright, harsh side.)

If you don't care about reverb, the low powered tweed Twin is a good choice for your guitars. In addition to Teles, I also play a couple of humbucker guitars and a P90 guitar. This amp likes them all, and I manage to do it all on the same amp settings. The Teles get a good, bright, steely tone when I want it, and nice mellow tones, as well. The humbucker guitars can give me anything from mellow tones to blistering blues tones.

This amp likes to be turned up, even if your guitar is turned down. It works better that way. If you like playing your guitar clean, this amp will give you good, warm, clean tones.

[Mike Better]

Just got my vicky low-power twin yesterday. Haven't had too much time to fool with it yet, but it seems like a killer amp. This one came w/ Jensen c12n reissues, and those have to go.. I'm not really sure what to do speaker-wise, maybe Weber California's.. or some Alltone or Naylor speakers..

I'll give more info on the amp within the next few days..

Mike

[Jim Collins]

A pair of Weber Californias will make that amp weigh a ton.

I've used the Weber CA12 (paper dustcap) in two different amps. One was a Victoria Deluxe and the other was an Allen Accomplice (very much like a Deluxe Reverb). The California has a HUGE bottom end. If the amp you are putting this speaker into has a big bottom end, to begin with, this speaker (or a pair of them) might be overkill. The California gave the Allen too much bottom end. (This amp has an output transformer that is larger than a stock Deluxe Reverb ever had. A larger OT usually means a bigger bottom.)

The California speaker is very clean. To get any speaker breakup from this speaker, you'll have to play extraordinarily loud. Any breakup you get will be amplifier breakup. This is what made the CA so attractive in the tweed Deluxe. That amp breaks up early, so it really doesn't need a speaker that breaks up early. The efficient California made the tweed Deluxe sound louder. I can't really imagine wanting to make my tweed Twin sound louder, but, of course, I have no idea what your needs are.

[Mike Better]

You're saying a lot of the stuff I've been thinking.. I just got the amp, so I'm gonna wait a while to figure out where to go with it.. The goals at the moment here are 1) More headroom (louder), and 2) more detailed cleans..

I played a lp twin once w/ p12n's, and it covered #2 there perfectly.. I just wonder if weber p12n's will give me more or less headroom than the RI c12n's in there now..

Mike

[Paul B]

Mike

Please keep us informed. How does it compare with other amps you have owned ?

Regards

Paul

[Jim Collins]

I tried a pair of Weber P12NTs in the low powered Twin. They sounded great, but they had an unacceptable level of cone cry. Even after I doped them significantly, I couldn't get the cone cry down to a level that was acceptable. (Actually, the doping didn't help that much.)

The N cones in Weber speakers are too dark for me.

[Mike Better]

Hey Jim,

I'm wondering what all you tried in the tweed twin, and what you thought of everything, as well as what you ended up with..

The p12nt's were actually what I was looking at.. do you think it's worth looking into them (with the whole cone cry thing)?

Right now, I'm thinking about some alltone's or naylor sd50's.. some kind of good c12n-ish speaker.. it'd probably be a good place to start..

Mike

[JWK]

Originally Posted by tweeddeluxe

I've begun rehearsing with a band that plays covers of classic rock, blues, and a little country. I'm lacking spanky cleans at practice volumes. Oh, besides two teles I also play a les paul clone.

Is the lo-power twin a good choice? Can anyone describe its sound?

Thanks

Tom

IMO the low-power twin is not a good choice. If you can build this stuff why not just take a SF Bassman and mod/voice to your liking? It's pretty easy to wire one channel as a tweed type circuit and other more or less stock Fender. The low-power twin will definately have a different tone and feel than your 18 watt Marshall clone or your Deluxe, but will not give you any more significant amount of headroom. My two cents.

John

[Tim Swartz]

I think the low power Twin would be a great choice. You mentioned tweed Bassman and JTM45, the LP Twin is essentially a 2x12 version of those amps. There should be a significant headroom increase over a Deluxe or 18w amp, as you are doubling the output power and the speaker coverage.

[Jim Collins]

Let's see.

I bought the amp, used, and it had Celestion V30s in it. They were a bit too bright and harsh for me. They actually sounded all right when the amp was really being pushed hard, but they were not very pleasant at anything less than that.

After that, I tried Weber C12Ns. I've tried these speakers in a couple of amps, and I have a hard time liking them. They are quite dark. They also cried a fair amount when I played humbuckers. They didn't cry with single coils.

After that, I went with Mojo's version of the V30. This was the stock speaker that Vickie was putting in this amp, at the time. (Now, they use Jensen C12N reissues.) These were actually pretty good. They had enough bottom end for me, without having too much. They were not harsh or strident on the top end. They weren't particularly complex sounding. Very workmanlike.

I tried a pair of Weber P12NT speakers. It is really too bad that these cried so badly, because they sounded so good -- a nice, complex sound. I really wanted these to work in this amp. I broke them in, well, and even doped the surrounds, but I couldn't make them work for me. If Weber could capture that sound, and eliminate the cone cry, I'd put those speakers in everything. (They are very expensive, though.)

Finally, I went with Reverend Alltone 1250s. These are my favorite, all around 12" speakers. They have a good, strong bottom, and a strong but not harsh top end. They are efficient enough that they make the amp sound loud, yet they will, eventually, break up. The breakup is smooth. I now have these speakers in all my 12" applications (two, 2x12 combos, and two, 1x12 combos).

I've also tried a number of other speakers in other amps. The standout 12" speaker of all the rest was the Weber CA12 . I got one with a paper dustcap, because I was afraid that, since the speaker was supposed to be so clean, the stock aluminum dustcap might have made things too bright. If I were going to do it all over, I'd have gotten the speaker with the aluminum dustcap. This speaker has such a big, yet very firm, bottom end, it could use a bit more on top. Absolutely no cone cry with this one. (Weber now makes an alnico version of this speaker. That might be one to try.)

[Mike Better]

Well, it looks like you covered all the bases that I wanted to touch.. My first choices were the p12nt and the alnico californias.. Do you think it would sound okay to mix the two? That is, if I can get a p12nt that dosen't cry..

Mike

[Jim Collins]

I don't see any reason why you can't mix the two. I have no idea what that would sound like.

The P12NT speaker has a huge magnet. In order to fit both speakers in the Vickie cabinet, I had to remove the bell cover from one of them. The magnet is so big, it was coming in contact with the chassis.

When I talk about cone cry, it may sound like I'm damning everything that comes off of the Weber line. I'm not. I may be more sensitive to crying than others are. There are thousands of very happy Weber users. I suspect that the problem I have with cone cry may have a lot to do with the fact the amps I've tried these speakers in all seem to have big output transformers. The Accomplice has a Vibrolux Reverb output transformer in it -- oversized for a Deluxe Reverb amp. Another Allen amp I've tried some of these speakers in had a Bassman-sized OT in it -- a lot of iron. (That amp now has a smaller OT.) The OT in the low powered tweed Twin is pretty beefy, as well. The bigger OT generally means significantly more low end.

I'd be very interested in hearing how the alnico CA speakers sound.

[tweeddeluxe]

FWIW, when I emailed Ted Weber about my plans to build a lo power twin he recommended one 12A150 and one 12A150W, both at 25w. Sorry, dont know the old model #.

That's probably what I'll use.

C'mon guys, tell me how your twins sound!!

And thanks, too.

Tom

[idylldon]

I built my my low-powered Twin about six years ago and installed some used Weber P12Ns (12A150) and NOS GEC KT-66s in it. I'm not a fan of speaker distortion; that is, I'd rather hear the tubes overdrive than the speaker cones rattle. I don't find the Webers too dark or too bright. Like in the nursery rhyme, they're "just right" for my needs and the volume level I play at with the blues band I'm currently in.

I've found that the best tone I can get out of this amp/circuit comes when I have the amp up high (darn near dimed) and control the volume from my guitar. It just sings. To my ears, this is one of the all-time best circuits ol' Leo and company came up with. This amp has a very smooth transition between clean and overdriven sounds. I have many amps and cabinets, but this is the one that gets gigged the most.

Cheers,
--
Don

[Mike Better]

I agree with what idylldon is saying.. I've been turning the amp up nearly all the way and using my tele volume to set the volume, and the treble knob above "6" is basically gain..

Anyways, I ordered a pair of NOS JAN Philips 7581A's. Those should hopefully bump the headroom up a bit..

If it sounds like I'm knocking the amp by screwing with speakers and tubes and whatnot, well, I'm not. This is a keeper and I want to get it the best I can be..

Mike

[tweeddeluxe]

That's what I'm talking about. So with these things dimed what kinda volume you talking about?

[Mike Better]

FYI: 12A150 = P12N, 12A150-W = P12NT

We generally talk using the old model numbers 'cuz they correspond (at least mechanically) with old Jensens..

We're talking righteous volume, although it's gonna be directly related to speakers and speaker efficiency.. That's one of my problems with Weber VST, there are no efficiency ratings posted. .

Mike

[minoru]

Hi,

My friend has a tweed high power twin with original speakers, blond twin with celestion V30's and we have also tried a low power twin. Tonally, I would say that the tweed high power twin has more headroom than the low power, but both definitely have a tweed type tone. A comparison would be a tweed deluxe would be more condensed, and a bassman would be more focused sounding. I personally prefer the high power design over the low power.

The twins do have to be cranked up to sound at it's best though, and they are LOUD. Loud as in I don't want to be near that thing loud, especially with the tweed high power. With original Jensens, it means that it can fart out the low end quite quickly, especially with humbucker guitars.

One thing you have to be careful with Twins and tweed amps in general is that the baffle board is usually too thin for heavier speakers like the Celestions. With the stock baffle boards, they tend to resonante too much, which in effect makes the sound unfocused, especially in the low end.

The blonde twin sounds different from the tweed, probably has a little less midrange, making it more suitable for country, etc. It's loud as well.

Hope this helps.

[Mike Better]

Something needs to be said about the low end on these things: It's massive.. The 7581A's are supposed to expand it even more, so my house is gonna be a shakin' soon.. And this is with the bass on like '3'... That twang on the low E is just amazing..

Mike

[Jim Collins]

The low powered tweed Twin is loud, but it isn't LOUD. A Twin Reverb is LOUD. If I'm in a club, and I see a Twin Reverb comin up on stage, I'll be prepared to leave the place, because those things can hurt. If I see a low powered tweed Twin coming up on the stage, I'll stick around to hear who is going to play it. (Of course, you can't tell a high powered one from a low powered one by looking at it, from the front, but I don't think I've ever encountered a high powered tweed Twin, in person.)

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Tim Swartz

I think the low power Twin would be a great choice. You mentioned tweed Bassman and JTM45, the LP Twin is essentially a 2x12 version of those amps.

Actually, isn't the low power Tweed Twin 5D8 a bit different from the 5F6 Bassman and the JTM 45, which is modeled on the 5F6-A? The Bassman 5E6-A has a circuit that is similar to the low power Twin, but the 5F6 utilizes a totally different phase inverter. The 5E7 Bandmaster(3X10) is more similar to the low power Twin than is the 5F6 Bassman. The preamp sections on these amps are all similar, but the PI circuit changes to the long-tailed pair with the advent of the 5F6 schematic in the Bassman. There is a difference in the rectifier sections, also. The 5E6-A Bassman and the 5D8 Twin utilize dual 5U4G rectifiers. The 5F6 Bassman uses an 83 and the all-time fave 5F6-A uses a GZ34 for rectification. The 5E7 Bandmaster uses a single 5U4G..maybe that is what I like about it. The rectifier sag allows it to sing a bit more. The other amps have beefed up rectification and therefore less sag.
That said, I agree with Tim that any of these amps would cover the territory that you are playing in.

[Mike Better]

The similarity between the tweed twin and the bassman are basically between the "big box" tweed twin (high power)5f8-a, and the narrow panel bassman 5f6-a... they are exactly the same circuit, except the twin has a double power section.. they both use a gz34 rectifier..

The low power twin we are talking about is generally the 5e8-a circuit. Not many of us here are talking about originals, but repros.. and the most reproduced circuit is the 5e8-a. This circuit originally used 2x5u4g rectifiers, but the Victoria copy in particular (the one I have), uses 1xgz34 rectifier- it's a lot easier on the power tranny, yet gives about the same amount of sag... if you were looking for more sag, a 5u4g is a drop-in replacement (with a rebias). This would probably drop the realized wattage to around 40 watts.

Any 5f7 fan looking for a bit more power for the bigger rooms would do good to check out the 5e8-a. The main difference between this amp and the rest of the lineup is the gigantic layer wound OT, which keeps the bottom end tighter than the rest of the tweed amps.

Mike

[tweeddeluxe]

Hey guys. Thanks for the responses.

Will let you know my thoughts after I finish building the thang.

Tom