Taming Champ volume!

JohnnyCrash · August 4th, 2005, 08:26 PM

Yes, that's right - my Champ on 10 is TOO LOUD.

I already posted on the "Stomp Box" thread, but I am down to a few options:

1. Danelectro D-2 Overdrive
2. BadMonkey OD
3. Weber MiniMASS attenuator

I don't like distortion or fuzz effects, I would prefer overdrive to push the front end (12AX7 preamp tube) of my amp than use an "effect".

As far as the MiniMASS I could use it on multiple amps/cabs... so could the pedals. So I'm looking for tone-friendly volume methods :)

cugel · August 4th, 2005, 08:46 PM

its relatively simple to install a MV in a champ. I can't recall off the top of my head, but its in one of weber's books. Natch, you will have to find a place for the pot though. I had a VC that i converted to tweed specs, thus losing the tone controls. i was thinking of throwing in the MV in one of those pots for kicks but i dont have the amp anymore.

that still wont really give you the real champ tone at a low volume though.

its sad when you have to attenuate a 6W amp, but on 10 those things are loud enough to disturb many a neighbor, especially if you have a nice weber speaker innit.

the mini mass may be the only choice but the MV may be worth a try.

JohnnyCrash · August 4th, 2005, 08:55 PM

Never thought of that. I don't want to mess with a semi-original '72.

I'm actually building my own "Tweed" Champ heads. Perhaps I'll drop a MV in one of them.

For now I'm using an EQ pedal redlined. I can get some dist at low levels but over 2 and the volume is SICK. It's gotta Weber 8", but I'm planning on putting in a Weber 8A125.

I'm looking for a budget "home" scenario, BUT for recording I'll just open up on the dial and let er rip :)

Doug T. · August 4th, 2005, 11:26 PM

Try putting a 6K6 power tube in it. Those are normally used in the Fender reverb units.

Lower power by a couple of watts, sooner break-up, but still it's still pretty loud!

Rob DiStefano · August 5th, 2005, 06:35 AM

A minimalist OD is yer best and easiest bet, IMO - the BM works well with a Champ, been there and done that.

Lance · August 5th, 2005, 08:12 AM

Too darn simple and obvious....and cheap!

Just do it!

Daddy Elmis · August 5th, 2005, 09:08 AM

get the mini mass, now. It's way cheaper than any decent OD pedals, preserves very much intact the amp's tone (especially if you just knocking down a Champ -- shouldn't take too much attentuation), and is very flexible.

I have a Weber attenuator on every amp I own and would not be without them. Yes, at extreme attentuation it affects the higher frequencies of the amp -- but you can easily eq around this or have Ted put the bright switch on the Mass.

As I always say, an amp at its sweet spot attenuated sounds better than an unattentuated amp NOT at its sweet spot (using any pedal).

For me, I add pedals AFTER I've dialed in the amp's best tone -- I don't use pedals to create the amp's sound.

jhundt · August 5th, 2005, 11:35 AM

just joking!!!

Wally · August 5th, 2005, 12:15 PM

If the Champ is too much, find a Silvertone 'amp in the case' or similar amp. You know the type....no power tranny, maybe they make a watt and 1/4. Make it safe with an isolation transformer so that the AC Voltage can't come through the chassis to your guitar. Turn it up and wail away. Or....build you an isolation box for the speaker and push that Champ as hard as you want. The microphone inside the isolation box will be the only connection that the speaker has to the outside world. IMO, to interfere in any way with the sound of a Champ would subtract from the essence of the sound of a Champ. My two bits...
8)

skepticult · August 5th, 2005, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Or....build you an isolation box for the speaker and push that Champ as hard as you want. The microphone inside the isolation box will be the only connection that the speaker has to the outside world.

Is there anything like this available commercially? This would solve several of the problems I have trying to record in my apartment. I'm not a handyman, though.

I've tried using a heavy blanket (obviously leaving space for the heat to vent) and while it did a great job of killing some of the volume, it also sounded like...

wait for it

...there was a blanket over the amp, even when miced from under the blanket.

Pedals will add distortion, but unless the speaker is pushing some air the miced sound is really flat and dull.

Edit: Are you talking about something like this?

http://www.amptone.com/demeterssc1.htm

Wally · August 5th, 2005, 01:40 PM

The Demeter box is the one that I had read about. I suppose one could go to the extent of building a
muffling system that would allow open-back speaker movement with lower decibels. There are all sorts of thoughts to follow on this theme, but you found the unit that made me mention the isolation box.

skepticult · August 5th, 2005, 01:54 PM

I've been hunting around on Google a bit now that my curiousity has been prodded into action.

Here's a few other options I've found.

This one looks like you can cram your entire amp inside:

http://www.asc-studio-acoustics.com/iso-box.htm

Randall:

http://www.randallamplifiers.com/pro...tion/index.asp

None of them have multilayered cabinets, though, which seems kind of lame, especially when you're dropping a few hundred dollars on a plywood box.

From the reviews I've read it sounds like they have similar problems to the blanket as far as deadening certain frequencies.

Back to the drawing board...

maestrovert · August 5th, 2005, 01:59 PM

Once upon a time, i'd thought of trying a 4" 8 ohm speaker for my Champ...("Radio Shack" type...and before y'all say anything, i know, i know.... ;-) you'll notice i said i'd THOUGHT of it, but i didn't actually do it though)

i use my GNX4 for recording late at night when i can't/don't want to intrude on other's peace and quiet......

the isolation box and the attenuator will both "work" BUT.....

there's NOTHING like a Champ cookin' on the natch if'n ya ask me !

Wally · August 5th, 2005, 02:00 PM

As with any closed box...closed-back cabs included...there will be an effect on the movement of the speaker and therefore on the freqs/harmonics. It may be time for a new idea.... 8)
With regard to putting the whole amp in the box, I would have reservations as to the heat build up. Again, a mffling approach would provide ventilation as well.

skepticult · August 5th, 2005, 03:06 PM

I'm on my lunch break so I got out the blankets again. It actually doesn't sound half bad (tone-wise, leave my playing out of this!)

This is my Tele bridge->Grail, spring, 1o'clock->SFVC with everything@6 and trem off.

http://kookportal.com/sounds/blanket.mp3

Quiet enough for the daytime/early evening for sure. No way I could go louder than this, though.

Brick · August 5th, 2005, 09:31 PM

If six watts is too loud, find a Dano DM10 or the Silvertone varient. Although it may look like a toy, you can get some very nice power tube distortion dimed at apartment living volumes. If your bank account is really flush, try a Carr Mercury.

I think what most people need around the house is about two watts max.

I bought a Gibson GA15 thinking it was going to be the ticket to low volume cranked tone. What was I thinking?

CancerLeoCam · August 6th, 2005, 01:56 AM

I second the 6K6GT substitution. Idle plate dissipation for that one is 30% less so you should get pretty good breakup.

However, if you leave the cathode resistor value where it is at you may end frying the tube so a bias is necessary here if you do it. Fender sometimes sent out their Champs/VChamps/Broncos with super hot PT's that would push plate voltage up to over 400V in conjunction w/ a very very VERY hot bias.

Premature power tube death was synonymous with those PT's. An appropriate resistor (2W power rated) can serve as effective choke off the tube rectifier to the circuit if you have one of these PT's. I did on my VC and it works fine. GLuck

Deacon Blues · August 6th, 2005, 12:38 PM

but isn't the speaker on a Champ hard wired? If that is the case, a mini mass, or any attentuator isn't going to work unless you wire in a speaker jack.
If it does have a speaker jack, I would recommend the Weber Load Dump. I actually like this device better than the Load Dump.

Lance · August 6th, 2005, 02:53 PM

The champs speaker isn't hard wired but it has an RCA style connector. Weber sells the connector for that style also.

(although, I'd buy the RCA and a standard 1/4" connector anyway)

JohnnyCrash · August 6th, 2005, 03:42 PM

1. I do NOT want to buy another amp. I like the Champs.
2. When recording, the Champ will be fully cranked - I'm fine with that volume. So this quieting down is for "everyday" non-recording use.
3. I'm looking for a cheap easy solution. Nothing fancy.

I am going to be wiring a standard 1/4" jack in the place of the RCA... so that makes any attenuator a non-issue.

Isolation boxes?! Are you kidding me?

I have been looking into the Guytronix Gilmore Jr 1/2 watt for other uses (although, wasn't too thrilled with the soundclips), BUT I love my Champs :)

August 4th, 2005, 08:26 PM	#1 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	Taming Champ volume! Yes, that's right - my Champ on 10 is TOO LOUD. I already posted on the "Stomp Box" thread, but I am down to a few options: 1. Danelectro D-2 Overdrive 2. BadMonkey OD 3. Weber MiniMASS attenuator I don't like distortion or fuzz effects, I would prefer overdrive to push the front end (12AX7 preamp tube) of my amp than use an "effect". As far as the MiniMASS I could use it on multiple amps/cabs... so could the pedals. So I'm looking for tone-friendly volume methods :)

August 4th, 2005, 08:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	hmm Never thought of that. I don't want to mess with a semi-original '72. I'm actually building my own "Tweed" Champ heads. Perhaps I'll drop a MV in one of them. For now I'm using an EQ pedal redlined. I can get some dist at low levels but over 2 and the volume is SICK. It's gotta Weber 8", but I'm planning on putting in a Weber 8A125. I'm looking for a budget "home" scenario, BUT for recording I'll just open up on the dial and let er rip :)

August 5th, 2005, 08:12 AM	#6 (permalink)
Lance Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 2,197	Mini Mass Too darn simple and obvious....and cheap! Just do it! __________________ Lance "not very good...but I make up for it by playing loud"

August 5th, 2005, 09:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
Daddy Elmis Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: USA Posts: 961	get the mini mass, now. It's way cheaper than any decent OD pedals, preserves very much intact the amp's tone (especially if you just knocking down a Champ -- shouldn't take too much attentuation), and is very flexible. I have a Weber attenuator on every amp I own and would not be without them. Yes, at extreme attentuation it affects the higher frequencies of the amp -- but you can easily eq around this or have Ted put the bright switch on the Mass. As I always say, an amp at its sweet spot attenuated sounds better than an unattentuated amp NOT at its sweet spot (using any pedal). For me, I add pedals AFTER I've dialed in the amp's best tone -- I don't use pedals to create the amp's sound. __________________ Elwood: Good evening ladies and gentlemen, we're sure glad to be here in Cocomo tonight. We're the Good Ole' Blues Brothers Boys Band from Chicago. I sure hope you like our show. I'm Elwood, this here's my brother Jake.

August 5th, 2005, 11:35 AM	#8 (permalink)
jhundt Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Age: 54 Posts: 3,127 9 Photos	unplug the speaker just joking!!!

August 4th, 2005, 08:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
cugel TDPRI Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 36	its relatively simple to install a MV in a champ. I can't recall off the top of my head, but its in one of weber's books. Natch, you will have to find a place for the pot though. I had a VC that i converted to tweed specs, thus losing the tone controls. i was thinking of throwing in the MV in one of those pots for kicks but i dont have the amp anymore. that still wont really give you the real champ tone at a low volume though. its sad when you have to attenuate a 6W amp, but on 10 those things are loud enough to disturb many a neighbor, especially if you have a nice weber speaker innit. the mini mass may be the only choice but the MV may be worth a try.

August 4th, 2005, 11:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
Doug T. Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 118	Try putting a 6K6 power tube in it. Those are normally used in the Fender reverb units. Lower power by a couple of watts, sooner break-up, but still it's still pretty loud!

August 5th, 2005, 06:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
Rob DiStefano Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Park Ridge, NJ Age: 63 Posts: 4,915	A minimalist OD is yer best and easiest bet, IMO - the BM works well with a Champ, been there and done that.

August 5th, 2005, 12:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 4,212	Amp in a case... If the Champ is too much, find a Silvertone 'amp in the case' or similar amp. You know the type....no power tranny, maybe they make a watt and 1/4. Make it safe with an isolation transformer so that the AC Voltage can't come through the chassis to your guitar. Turn it up and wail away. Or....build you an isolation box for the speaker and push that Champ as hard as you want. The microphone inside the isolation box will be the only connection that the speaker has to the outside world. IMO, to interfere in any way with the sound of a Champ would subtract from the essence of the sound of a Champ. My two bits... 8)

August 5th, 2005, 01:40 PM	#11 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 4,212	The Demeter box is the one that I had read about. I suppose one could go to the extent of building a muffling system that would allow open-back speaker movement with lower decibels. There are all sorts of thoughts to follow on this theme, but you found the unit that made me mention the isolation box.

August 5th, 2005, 01:54 PM	#12 (permalink)
skepticult Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 405	I've been hunting around on Google a bit now that my curiousity has been prodded into action. Here's a few other options I've found. This one looks like you can cram your entire amp inside: http://www.asc-studio-acoustics.com/iso-box.htm Randall: http://www.randallamplifiers.com/pro...tion/index.asp None of them have multilayered cabinets, though, which seems kind of lame, especially when you're dropping a few hundred dollars on a plywood box. From the reviews I've read it sounds like they have similar problems to the blanket as far as deadening certain frequencies. Back to the drawing board...

August 5th, 2005, 01:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
maestrovert Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: West Branch Mi. Posts: 6,732	Once upon a time, i'd thought of trying a 4" 8 ohm speaker for my Champ...("Radio Shack" type...and before y'all say anything, i know, i know.... ;-) you'll notice i said i'd THOUGHT of it, but i didn't actually do it though) i use my GNX4 for recording late at night when i can't/don't want to intrude on other's peace and quiet...... the isolation box and the attenuator will both "work" BUT..... there's NOTHING like a Champ cookin' on the natch if'n ya ask me ! __________________ Sing the Song Bro' Play on Drummer www.godonthe.net

August 5th, 2005, 02:00 PM	#14 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 4,212	As with any closed box...closed-back cabs included...there will be an effect on the movement of the speaker and therefore on the freqs/harmonics. It may be time for a new idea.... 8) With regard to putting the whole amp in the box, I would have reservations as to the heat build up. Again, a mffling approach would provide ventilation as well.

August 5th, 2005, 03:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
skepticult Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 405	Okay, so I got curious I'm on my lunch break so I got out the blankets again. It actually doesn't sound half bad (tone-wise, leave my playing out of this!) This is my Tele bridge->Grail, spring, 1o'clock->SFVC with everything@6 and trem off. http://kookportal.com/sounds/blanket.mp3 Quiet enough for the daytime/early evening for sure. No way I could go louder than this, though.

August 5th, 2005, 09:31 PM	#16 (permalink)
Brick Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Jose Age: 58 Posts: 793	Dano DM10 If six watts is too loud, find a Dano DM10 or the Silvertone varient. Although it may look like a toy, you can get some very nice power tube distortion dimed at apartment living volumes. If your bank account is really flush, try a Carr Mercury. I think what most people need around the house is about two watts max. I bought a Gibson GA15 thinking it was going to be the ticket to low volume cranked tone. What was I thinking?

August 6th, 2005, 01:56 AM	#17 (permalink)
CancerLeoCam Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mule Deer-Mt. Lion Safari, CA Posts: 1,692 5 Photos	Re: Dano DM10 I second the 6K6GT substitution. Idle plate dissipation for that one is 30% less so you should get pretty good breakup. However, if you leave the cathode resistor value where it is at you may end frying the tube so a bias is necessary here if you do it. Fender sometimes sent out their Champs/VChamps/Broncos with super hot PT's that would push plate voltage up to over 400V in conjunction w/ a very very VERY hot bias. Premature power tube death was synonymous with those PT's. An appropriate resistor (2W power rated) can serve as effective choke off the tube rectifier to the circuit if you have one of these PT's. I did on my VC and it works fine. GLuck __________________ Everyone's your "buddy" or "friend" when they want you or something from you. If you're not willing to work for free why should somebody else?

August 6th, 2005, 12:38 PM	#18 (permalink)
Deacon Blues Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 498	Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the speaker on a Champ hard wired? If that is the case, a mini mass, or any attentuator isn't going to work unless you wire in a speaker jack. If it does have a speaker jack, I would recommend the Weber Load Dump. I actually like this device better than the Load Dump. __________________ This is the age of the expanding man.

August 6th, 2005, 02:53 PM	#19 (permalink)
Lance Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 2,197	Nope...but The champs speaker isn't hard wired but it has an RCA style connector. Weber sells the connector for that style also. (although, I'd buy the RCA and a standard 1/4" connector anyway) __________________ Lance "not very good...but I make up for it by playing loud"

August 6th, 2005, 03:42 PM	#20 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	Wha...?! 1. I do NOT want to buy another amp. I like the Champs. 2. When recording, the Champ will be fully cranked - I'm fine with that volume. So this quieting down is for "everyday" non-recording use. 3. I'm looking for a cheap easy solution. Nothing fancy. I am going to be wiring a standard 1/4" jack in the place of the RCA... so that makes any attenuator a non-issue. Isolation boxes?! Are you kidding me? I have been looking into the Guytronix Gilmore Jr 1/2 watt for other uses (although, wasn't too thrilled with the soundclips), BUT I love my Champs :)