Brown Super?

[milocj]

Does anybody have a brown Super? I may have a line on one, but its a long drive and the owner doesn't know much. The couple of transformer numbers he can see are correct and the speakers aren't original. Looks to be in decent shape, but well used and played. I can open it up when I get there (if I make the trip) but the owner isn't mechanically inclined and doesn't want to open it for pics.

I guess my big question is whether it would be worth grabbing if I may end up having to sell my '62 Deluxe down the road to justify the Super.

Do the extra controls bring a lot more tone shaping than the 6G2 and would it still be able to sound close to the Deluxe if I wanted it to? Does the Super have the same tremolo or is it the multi-tube harmonic type? I really like my Deluxe, I have a BF Tremolux and VR so I really like the 2x10 setup. I don't need the added headroom of the Super and I don't play loud enough to be able to get into the crunch zone of the Deluxe either, so the power difference shouldn't affect my decision one way or the other.

Ultimately it would be nice to have both, but I'd like opinions on what the Super or Deluxe does better if buying one meant the other may have to leave down the road.

[vibrasonic]

The super has the harmonic trem. If you dont play loud enough to put your deluxe into OD then i would stick with the deluxe. Personally i think the deluxe sounds warmer at lower volumes.

[slider313]

The harmonic trem is a big plus with the Super. The Super will also have more clean headroom and "punch". The 2x10's give you a bit more top end "snap" and note definition. It's a win, win if you ask me.

[milocj]

I love trem at home and I don't get to gig very much. If the Pro isn't louder than my BFVR the volume difference wouldn't be an issue. I'm thinking having the bass/treble/presence would give more variety as long as I could still get a lot of the same sound of the Deluxe when I wanted it. In my limited experience with the black and early silver Fender amps the 40 watt and under models work pretty well for me without having to crank them whereas some other brands and later Fenders seem to need volume even to hit a good clean tone.

It would be a frivolous purchase either way, but I have never seen a brown Fender somewhat nearby when I had the funds available.

[BiggerJohn]

I have one. Plenty loud. Doesn't have the sparkle and brightness of a blackface.

[milocj]

I've got the BF covered for sparkle. Can the Super or Pro sound a little fuller (I guess actually either bassier or brighter) than the Deluxe being as it only has the tone control or will it basically just sound like a bigger brown Deluxe? I'm familiar with the basic difference in sound in the BF/SF amps when going from 6V6 to 6L6 so I guess its more the addition of the tone stack that I'm wondering about.

[SoK66]

There are brown Supers, and then there are brown Supers. The earliest are the 5G4, reverse volume 5 preamp tube circuit, which are the most desireable. These are the first produced and ran from late '59 in the third quarter of 1960. Then there are a bunch of undocumented transistion circuits of varying tone stack & PI component values, also with the later 6 preamp tube harmonic vibrato. Most of these are labelled 6G4, but may or may not have the same vales as shown on that schematic. These ran ran until early '61, at which point they'll be labelled 6G4-A and will conform virtually always to that schematic.

For fans of the amps the earliest 5G4 is as I noted the most desireable, followed by the late 1960 amps, then the 6g4-A. ALL of them sound great, with one warning. The original Jensen P12R and P12Q speakers in the 1960-built amps have a life expectancy of MINUTES in a cranked Super. The '61 Oxford alnicos sound just as good and are much more robust, but still won't live in there long if the amp is constantly cranked to the sweet spot. It's why you'll see the majority of those amps with replaced speakers of varying types. The last Oxford ceramics in the 62-63 Supers are the least toneful but most robust.

Brown Supers used yellow Astron caps until the first quarter of '61, at which time Fender beban phasing in blue moldeds. You may see a mix of both in a '61 era amp. Just like in tweed Fenders, the yellow Astrons have by now started to deteriorate at a high rate and may exhibit a lot of drift & leakage. Blue molded far less so.

I'd go check it out and snap it up if it hasn't been hacked or butchered inside. Pull it apart before you buy. My Nov. '60 transition circuit Super:

[milocj]

Thanks for that info.

I know it would be worth more with original speakers, but wasn't surprised to see replacements, and I know its not the reverse knob version. I suspect that I would prefer something other than reissue P10Rs though I can keep an open mind and they did sound good in an old 4x10 Boogie I used to own.

I guess I do need to try to find time this weekend to check it out, and I do know what to look for inside and on the transformers. I hate when stuff I've never seen or heard shows up fairly locally since I don't even need all the gear I've got

[SoK66]

If other than speakers it's fairly original snap it up! Modern, higher capacity speakers will live in them. I wouldn't be put off by Jensen RIs. Mark Baier uses them in his tweed clones, he's not known for using bad components. Eminence blue frame alnico 10s are also good in them.

[Raybob]

I just finished building our first brown Super at Tube-Tone. It's not on the web site yet but will be sometime next week. Totally amazing. The Fender brown circuit is an overlooked gem, I think. I've always concentrated on the black face Fenders. Built a Tweed Bassman and heard that raw, un-hi-fi sound. As Fenders evolved, Leo was trying to clean up the tone and make it more "hi-fi" as there were no clean steel guitar amps then. Blackface is much cleaner than tweed, but the circuits in the brown Fenders are a SWEET compromise between the tweed and bf, IMO. So much more variation in adjusting the tone controls, especially that tapped treble pot.



Tremolo on the Super is amazing, shifting highs/lows, not loud/soft. Unique to the brown Super and brown Vibrasonic. We'll be adding 3 new browns to the web site at tube-tone.com, the Vibroverb 6G16, Super6G4-A, and Vibrolux 6G11 (with added tube reverb).

[bananafist]

Crumbs, I should just dive in and get it, if this was available in the UK I'd probably trade the wife for it!

[jipp]

looks great ray, i find it interesting how much influence leo had on amp design. did he go to school, or picked it up from his uncle tv repair man i forget. i thought i read something like that. the telecaster, strat, and so many fender amps. has to be said leo accomplished a whole hell of a lot for man kind. thank you leo.

id put you right up there with fred bear ( the leo of archery) :)
chris.

[bananafist]

Raybob, those brownface models are the three I'd get if I won the lottery, for sure. Any idea of prices and shipping for the UK, 240volt?
I like the Super, am drawn to the Vibroverb, and, well, ya gotta have the Vibrolux like Mark K.

Milocj - If you decide not to keep it, sell it to me!

[drf64]

Originally Posted by Raybob

As Fenders evolved, Leo was trying to clean up the tone and make it more "hi-fi" as there were no clean steel guitar amps then. /).

Bob Crooks would beg to differ:

[ASC67]

Originally Posted by milocj

Thanks for that info.

I know it would be worth more with original speakers, but wasn't surprised to see replacements, and I know its not the reverse knob version. I suspect that I would prefer something other than reissue P10Rs though I can keep an open mind and they did sound good in an old 4x10 Boogie I used to own.

I guess I do need to try to find time this weekend to check it out, and I do know what to look for inside and on the transformers. I hate when stuff I've never seen or heard shows up fairly locally since I don't even need all the gear I've got

What is the reverse knob ?

[drf64]

Originally Posted by ASC67

What is the reverse knob ?

The treble control is a tapped 70k / 350k (IRRC) pot. Treble response is cut as it is turned CW.

[bananafist]

I think reverse knob means the earliest version where the volume wasn't the first knob in the row but came after the tone knobs. Unless, its a get-you-off-the-stage-quick knob you only used when one of them pesky Standel guys came on.....?

[drf64]

Originally Posted by bananafist

I think reverse knob means the earliest version where the volume wasn't the first knob in the row but came after the tone knobs. Unless, its a get-you-off-the-stage-quick knob you only used when one of them pesky Standel guys came on.....?

Well, the treble control is definitely tapped. I thought i recall it being kind of like a cut/boost, with 5 being neutral and 1 being full cut?

sorry to intrude, but i love brown amps.

dan

[milocj]

When I said reverse knob I was reference to the earliest ones.

I'm hoping to make the drive today. Assuming once I get there the transformers and most of the guts are original, and from the outside pics it seems original but dirty and very stained grill cloth, is $2k too much?

Out of curiosity, would the basic tone be similar to a 6G6B Baseman? I used to have one of those that I used in a custom 1x15 combo cab. Just trying to ballpark the tone before driving.

[Raybob]

Originally Posted by bananafist

Raybob, those brownface models are the three I'd get if I won the lottery, for sure. Any idea of prices and shipping for the UK, 240volt?
I like the Super, am drawn to the Vibroverb, and, well, ya gotta have the Vibrolux like Mark K.

Milocj - If you decide not to keep it, sell it to me!

The Vibrolux went to Denmark. That was a special order that was ordered just when I was building the other two. He had good timing on his order. :)

Price for the Super is $1850 USD. Shipping Super to UK is $270 USD via FedEx. I do now have one complete Super and one Vibroverb ready to ship. Both amps have Weber (2) 10F150T (broken in on Variac). Need extra day to swap in EU tranny if needed. Normally 4-6 weeks build time from ordering.