More amp volume via pedal? (guitar knob content)

[Scantron08]

Ok, so here's what I'm wondering: Is it ok to use an O/D or distortion pedal to push an amp much harder by leaving it on during the entire gig and making than it much louder than it is on its own?

I played a gig recently where I just showed up with a Strat and played through another guy's rig (who also played a Strat). He had a Dr. Z MAZ 18 and a A-man Silver-mod TS-9. The TS-9 was wide open - he said he never turned it off, and for me just to use the volume knob on my guitar for gain increases for solos (playing rhythm at about 5 or 6 on the guitar volume knob). I did what he said, and it sounded amazing - it was also very, very loud, which was good because this was an outdoor gig for a large crowd, and we were just using stage volume.

First, off I do realize his incredible amp played a big role, and I don't know how loud it would have been without a cranked TS-9 in front of it (maybe just as loud). I know that there are lots of guys who use the volume knob on their guitar this way - on many kinds of amps. However, my question is just about doing this as a general technique on lower-power amps. My amps are small, low-power 1x12s - a 15w Sears Silvertone and a 22w Gibson Falcon - they are not very loud. The Sears maxes out its volume around 4 - the Gibson continues getting louder up to 10, but its still not really loud at all, even cranked. My guitar volume knob is usually always dimed as a result, and I'm often still not loud enough. I set my pedals to moderate levels - just to add dirt to the comparable clean level.

So.........can I just put my Rat or TS-9 in front of one of those amps, and open it all the way up just like I did on that borrowed rig that day? This will definitely make my amps much, much louder - or will that damage my amp since I'd be pushing the amp and speaker much harder and getting it much louder than it can get on its own?

Whoops, I wrote a book! All help appreciated.

[RomanS]

A pedal will not make your amp louder - your amp has a maximum volume level, and after that is reached, it will just get more distorted and compressed; doesn't matter whether you put a lower level signal (like your guitar) in the input, and turn up the amp's volume knob more, or whether you use a "louder" signal (like with an OD pedal, a booster, or high-output pickups), and have the amp reach it's max. volume level much lower on it's volume pot - the end result will always be the same max. volume (it may just sound different - more compressed, looser or tighter, whatever - depends on the components involved).

If you really want to increase max. volume on your amp, use a more efficient speaker!

[waparker4]

I have never played either of those amps, but on my DRRI a 22 Watt modern production amp sporting a 12AX7 preamp tube, going straight in, cranking all the way up, and hitting it with a strat even with low output pickups with the volume full up would be LOUD. Like painful loud up close... So it makes me wonder if your amps are working 100%, if you don't find them loud when you turn them all the way up, and they are rated at 15 + watts.

That said, loud is subjective. Do you mean it's not loud at all, or that it's not loud enough on stage?

Beyond that, ^^^^ what he said. There is a max volume limit that you should be able to reach without a pedal, adding a boost is just going to clip the signal more. However, this increase in harmonic content to the signal should be perceived as "louder" even if the amplitude of the waveform is not bigger, if I am not mistaken.

[RomanS]

Originally Posted by waparker4

However, this increase in harmonic content to the signal should be perceived as "louder" even if the amplitude of the waveform is not bigger, if I am not mistaken.

That really depends on the amp and the pedal used - with a "bad" combo, it might just sound more compressed and muddy, which might make it appear less loud - but with something that cuts a bit of bass, and adds some high mids and treble (treble booster, TS-style pedal,...) the resulting tone might "cut through" a mix better, which might make it appear louder (even if it's not...)

[Scantron08]

Thanks for the quick input.

RomanS, I would think the amp's volume would be capped, too, but these amps can definitely be made louder with a pedal. I know because if I am playing clean, and then step on a cranked O/D pedal (pedal volume high, pedal drive low, if you wish), it is without doubt much, much, louder, and not just compressed or distorted (the way different output pickups would result in different volume levels). I turn my pedal volume down to keep the two levels comparable right now, but as I said, my guitar vol. knob is wide open.

waparker, those DRRIs are def. way loud (and killer amps). I specified my amp types b/c I thought someone may say, "hey - a 22w? is that a DRRI?" These little amps are nowhere near as loud. Some amps are just louder than others, regardless of wattage. And I mean "loud" as in attaining a giggable stage-volume. (If they're miked, it doesn't matter.) My Silvertone never gets any louder after 4 - just more saturated. And it's much louder than the Falcon.

Re: the amps' efficient speaker (Jensen in the Falcon), or working order, I am not positive, but I can say I had a trusted amp tech check them out, and he gave them both a clean bill of health.

[RomanS]

If your amp gets louder with a pedal than it is by itself, with the vol. pot maxed, there seems to be something wrong with it (preamp tubes? filter caps?)
Unless it is an amp that is deliberately designed to stay completely clean until the vol. pot is maxed (personally, I don't know any tube-driven guitar amp circuit like that, though), it should definitely be able to reach its maximum volume level by itself (without help from a pedal).

About speaker efficieny: That has got nothing to do with "working order" - some speaker models are by design much more efficient than others (and original Jensens are among the least efficient ones - eg. hooking up an Emi Cannabis Rex would make your amp appear at least twice as loud as with a vintage style Jensen...)

[waparker4]

Originally Posted by Scantron08

The Sears maxes out its volume around 4 - the Gibson continues getting louder up to 10, but its still not really loud at all, even cranked. My guitar volume knob is usually always dimed as a result, and I'm often still not loud enough.

The Gibson not clipping all the way up til 10 sounds really weird to me, but only as a user of a handful of other tube amps. "personally, I don't know any tube-driven guitar amp circuit like that, though" << me, too.

It's not the speaker. Even if you had a speaker that turned the biggest signal into a mousefart, you'd still be able to hear the clipping I'd think ... now that I've exhausted my amp knowledge I will shut up

[supersam]

Not all amps are equal. Some amps don't break up like others. Also, my amp definitely gets louder with pedals. I have a '69 Princeton Non-Verb that has been fully checked out, with a recap, emi copperhead, etc. By itself it stays clean just about to 10, with the slightest breakup only if I really wail on the strings.

This amp is not even close to loud enough to hang with a drummer, even a light hitting drummer. So I use a TS-9 to not only give it some grit, but to boost the signal, and it makes the amp way louder! I also use an EQ pedal as a clean boost, when I want to get more clean headroom. It does start to clip the signal, but not heavy like an overdrive pedal. It does give the amp more volume though. It really doesn't seem to be just perceived volume, it seems to be WAY louder. Also, I leave either the Tube Screamer, or the eq pedal on all the time when playing out, and it sounds really good to me, and doesn't seem to hurt anything.

Back to the perceived volume thing, if someone has a db reader, maybe we can put this one to a test.

[jmiles]

Keeley Katana.

[Scantron08]

Yeah, mine seems way louder, too, supersam. Who knows? Perhaps that is just clipping and "perceived volume," but I can tell you this -- you don't need to get out a technical read-out on a meter to know that everyone in your band and your audience believes your amp just got louder. And that's what I'm trying to discuss - call it what you will - I'm talking about pushing your amp this way.

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by RomanS

If your amp gets louder with a pedal than it is by itself, with the vol. pot maxed, there seems to be something wrong with it (preamp tubes? filter caps?)

I'm confused by this statement. Why wouldn't a stronger input signal (pup's or boost) be louder than a weaker input signal? I understand there is a maximum volume, but if that maximum is produced with strong humbuckers, and then I plug in my weaker single coils and the volume is lower, isn't that showing the amp volume is affected by the input? And wouldn't a boost be the same? If I add a boost to the single coil chain, and there is now the same input signal as the humbucker, then isn't the volume higher with the boost?

Isn't that why we have boosts and hot pick ups, to make the sound louder?

[Silverface]

Isn't that why we have boosts and hot pick ups, to make the sound louder?

No, usually we have them to kick an already hard-driving amp into saturated overdrive. Without getting overly technical and burying you in the theory of acoustics, an overdriven (a bad term for "slightly distorted) signal consists of a type of sound wave that consists of harmonics/overtones that are both pleasing to the ear AND have the "appearance" of being "louder". You can measure the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) of a clean signal at 90db and a slightly distorted signal at 90db and while on the SPL meter they show up as exactly the same, the distorted signal will sound louder to the listener.

I've worked on a lot of Falcons - it's hard to tell the specifics without seeing the schematic for your specific model (as they vary widely) but while most Gibson amps are known as clean machines with very little distortion (my old GA-50T could be dimed and play clear as a a bell) *some* were more like similarly-powered Fenders and broke upa bit earlier - many of the Falcons fell into that category.

However - most amp techs don't work on Gibsons much and are not as familiar with "what makes 'em tick. Yes, your amp may have a clean bill of health and be working fine - however, it may not be *optimized* for what you want to get out of it, and just as with Fenders there are tube, speaker, component and minor circuit changes you can make that will get you there. If, however, you just had the amp "checked out" by the tech instead of asking him to optimize it for the sound you WANT to get he no doubt made sure it was healthy and as far as he was concerned.

Also, any tech even basically familiar with both those amps will know in advance that the *normal* use is clean with a little breakup right at the top, not running them super-hot or trying to maximize the distortion. He's not going to have the foggiest idea that you're going had-to-head with a Maz 18, a more modern amp with far more volume.

He will also know both the Gibson and Silvertone had ultra cheap, low-efficiency speakers. - perfect for a gritty, grinding low-gain blues tone but not the type of speaker (or amp, for that matter) that was engineered to get you singing, sustained distortion.

It sounds like volume is not the whole issue here. It sounds like you may have the wrong amps for what you're playing - or, OTOH, the other player has too much amp for what you guys are playing and needs to back off.

Pedals WILL drive each stage in the amp harder. The tradeoff is those stages were designed for lower gain playing, may not be able to take the increase and will fail. The output transformers in both are very small and even if you push a high-gain signal into the phase inverter it may only be able to push the output stage into non-articulate mush. Both are great amps - but maybe NOT the right amps for what you're trying to do.