Fender Tweed Cleans:

[RubyRae]

Can you fellas share with my your experience on various Fender Tweed amps you have used, and how there clean headoom is?

I am looking for a slightly higher wattage tweed amp, and wanting to maximize my clean headroom. I know the 5E3 is a wonderful amp and the clean tone on 3 is great, but that is not what I'm looking for.

I've never played a 5E9 or any of the various Tremolux amps...
I am also real curious about the Super, BandMaster, and Pro in terms of clean headroom.
Thanks!

postscript: when I say "clean" I am simply talking about the tweed style clean, which we know is certainly a different clean than blackface.

[RockerDuck]

After using most every amp Fender has made. Only the Twin Reverb has enough head room. I have distorted all of them up 60 watts. And that wasn't turning them half way up.

[Justinvs]

I have a Tweed Vibrolux. It stays clean well past 5 or 6, and even the breakup is mellow. Sweet amp but nothing like a bassman for distortion.

Oh, and its loud. For a small amp that thing has volume, clean or dirty.

[gatimberframer]

I have a Lil Dawg Superdawg which is basically a 5f4 super.

With a 12ay7 in v1 it has enough headroom for me to play a typical bar gig and stay pretty much totally clean. I have eminence legend 102s in it. On an outdoor stage I can push it enough to get a bit of grit if I want but I'm gonna be micing it to spread the sound out. I have never yet been in a situation where I needed more headroom out of it than it could give me. I guess if it were outside and I wasn't micing it and I wanted to sound like Don Rich then I might have some trouble.

To go the other direction I can lower the clean headroom 3 ways in mine. Switchable cathode bias (which I added), putting a 12ax7 in v1 and jumpering the channels all lower headroom some. If I do all 3 then I am too dirty for Bakersfield type stuff at gig volume but I am sounding good for blues. Not really in rock territory without being too loud for most rooms I play in but outside I could do it.

This is all with single coils. I don't have a HB guitar right now so I don't know how that might change things.

It really is a great amp for me. Loud, portable, nice cleans, doesn't get lost in the mix. Of course, YMMV.

Hope this helps.

[telex76]

None of the Tweed amps were known for clean. That's just not thier thing, but any of the bigger tweeds should have some usable headroom.

[Rob DiStefano]

"tweed" and "clean" don't belong in the same sentence. that is, if lotsa volume matters.

then again, most clubs mic all amps and go through a pa sound board, so even a 5f1 can sound squeeky clean at high volumes.

....

[doc w]

I think we need a new term. A clean tweed should be called something like ... "furry." Before a tweed goes into that lovely saturation, it is clean-ish but not clean like a blackface. There is always a little hair on it. I don't think that is a scientific term.

I had a 1958 Tremolux a while back which had a fair amount of headroom, IIRC.

[spankdplank]

Clean with hair is the term I always use, but furry certainly works. Tweeds have a more pronounced midrange, while blackfaces and silverfaces are very scooped in the mids. The tweed hairy-ness or furr seems to live in that midrange (very unscientific and oversimplified, I know). I can't get my head around the type of volume you seem to want or why you would want it, but to each is own. If a tweed bassman won't do it, then a high power tweed twin would be about as far down that road as you could go. If that doesn't work, how about a silverface twin reverb with one of those Boss tweed bassman pedals?

[Skub]

You can get away with clean..ish on a Bassman59 at high volume...if you are gentle with your picking paw,but the hair is always lurking.

[Gringo13]

Bassman or Twin with 12ay7 in V1 and big 6L6 glass. I'd say that rec tube choice and speaker selection will also help you get more clean volume before dirt, especially if "tweed clean" is clean enough for your needs.

[JTM45blues]

Originally Posted by telex76

None of the Tweed amps were known for clean. That's just not thier thing, but any of the bigger tweeds should have some usable headroom.

Obviously you've never played a High Power Tweed Twin. 80 watts of pure clean whoop ass in a 2x12 cabinet. I use my Victoria 80212 when I want BIG, LOUD Tweed cleans.

[JTM45blues]

Originally Posted by Skub

You can get away with clean..ish on a Bassman59 at high volume...if you are gentle with your picking paw,but the hair is always lurking.

Definitely agree with this. I usually gig my Victoria 45410 on about 5-6 and using a ZVex SHO for clean boost, makes for a big, fat clean tone and if you dig in you can get dirt too.

[JTM45blues]

I've said it before but tweed amps are about more than just dirt. Yes you can obviously get a great Neil Young or Elmore James tone by cranking a small tweed amp. However listen to their warm, full cleans with that beautiful full range tone. Then turn them up gradually, experiment with the tone controls and presence knob and dial in all types of vintage tones. These are beautiful sounding amps that are much more than one trick ponies. For tweed cleans list to things like early Buddy Guy with his 57 strat into a 59 Bassman. Lots of 50's jazz was done on tweed amps, early honky tonk was also done with tweed Fenders, early rock n roll and rockabilly also was done with these glorious tone machines.

[Wally]

Tweed and cleans....I am going to be in the camp with JTM45 here.
I can play clean tones on any tweed at some volume. That 'at some volume' is not restricted to some number on the amp's volume control either. I never put a TWeed amp below halfway up on the voume....usually higher. A tweed Deluze will break up at 3 on the dial.....and it can yield cleans at 9 on the dial......for some players. Those players will know how to control their guitar's output through manipulation of the gutiar's volume control's and/or the variation of pick attack.
ON the other hand, I have witnessed more than a few players who couldn't get clean out of a BF Deluxe much less a tweed deluxe with the amp's volume set low....because they beat the strings to death. There is no way to get clean with that approach. EVen a TR will yield ugly sonics, imho, when the strings are hit with great force...and that is how some players play all of the time.
RubyRae, like I said, clean can be had with that 5E3 set to 8 on the volume dial....and one doesn't have to do anything but change the pick attack. The Tremolux and Vibrolux Tweeds have fixed bias with a long-tailed pair PI, so they are a bit different than a 5E3. Run a lower gain tube in V1 of those two amps,and you might have what you are looking for. The Super/Pro/BAndmaster/Low pwer Twin Tweeds will have more headroom than the 6V6 amps, but they cannot match the 5F6A BAssman and the high power TWeed TWin for clean power. Have you played a '57 lo-power TWeed TwinRI? That would give you some idea of what you are looking for because you could compare it to the 5E3 that you have played, right? The lo-power Twin is very close to the Super/Pro/Bandmaster amps but for the addition of one more rectifier tube. One rectifier tube can be pulled to take that Twin back to the Super/Pro/Bandmaster thing...a bit softer with earlier breakup and more of a tendency to 'sing' when it breaks up. Teh lo-power TWin is between the Super/Pro/Bandmaster region and the Bassman/hig-power Twin thing. Then, plug into a BAssman RI...you will hear a difference in comparison to the '57 TWin RI, I assure you....especially if they will pull a rectifier out of the TWin for that exercise.
By the time a BAssman or a high-power TWeed Twin break-up, you are in a high volume situation.....good for some applications...bad for others.
Here is a thought for you, Ruby. GEt you a BF or SF DR. Mod the NOrmal channel for that bumped up mid thing that the tweeds do. Then, you would have the DR's clean reverb channel and a channel that leans more toward the tweed side of things. This can be done to any two-channel FEnder REverb amp.....makes for a very versatile amp. I am about to do it for a DRRI and a SFTR that a fellow owns. AT the same time, I am giving a once over to the '58 5F6A that I resurrected and then sold to him. He has all of the bases covered....especially since he owns a hardwood cab MKIIC+ Mesa that I sold him. He left the Bassman with me for awhile during his move to El Paso....man, that amp is BIG sounding. Lots of OOMPH!
It is intereting to take note of the sonic evolution of Fender amps.

[mad dog]

Plenty of clean in tweeds. But it's not the same as blackface fender clean. Not mid scooped. I've heard it described as lots of harmonic content. A pretty funny way to describe it, but seems true. Whether tweed clean flavors will work for you depends on loud you want to play. Here's my experience:

Gibson GA40. It's tweed, and IMO analogous to the fender tweed tremolux. 2x6v6, cathode bias, oversize, resonant box. At medium volumes, this is the prettiest, richest clean I've heard. As Wally said, there's a whole lot more to tweed than dirt.

Victoria Trem de la Trem. Like the GA40, this amp is louder than you would expect. Such pretty edge and drive sound it's hard to keep the volume down. Pretty cleans here too, up to medium loud. The ceramic 15" speaker helps.

Tweed pro type, such as Vicky 35115. If you like tweed deluxe clean but not enough of it, try a pro. As versatile an amp as I've encountered. How clean it stays up to how loud is a function of tube and speaker choice. Set it up right, you can get a pretty loud clean. With an alnico speaker, overdrives earlier.

Lo power tweed twin. Mine was the '57 RI. This amp can do loud. And it can do loud clean. Just beautiful. I heard John Scofield play his Vicky 50212 live once. Mostly clean, definitely loud ... sounded so good I had to try one.

MD

[teleamp]

The tweed tremolux has a bit more clean headroom (similar to a DR, IMHO).

Edit to add that I just saw that Wally gave a more detailed bio of the tremolux.

The tremolux I had had more headroom than a 5E3, plus the volume pot had in more control over the loudness of the amp.

Hey Ruby, I know you like the Princetons, which solid state practice amp would you recommend for lower than Princeton volume practicing?

[waparker4]

Wally can you provide a link to the DR normal channel -> tweed territory mods? Im intrigued

[Wally]

waparker, it entails separating the cathode bypass that is shared between pin* on V1 and V2. Maintain tehe gain structure in the Vbi Ch by installing a 1.5K rsistor on pin8, V2 in place of the shared 820 ohm resistor. USe the 820 ohm resistor for a new bypass on pin8, V1 along with a new 25mfd/25V cap.
then, choose your poison as reagards the tone caps. The .1 bass and the .047 mid need to go to a smaller value. Your ear and your guitar might have somethign to do with your choice.....but .022 in both positions is a place to start. You will see .02mfd in the 5F6A BAssman and the other 'big' tweeds in their final incarnation...which is what most people think of when they think 'tweed'. The 5E3 uses .1mfds.....and maybe that is where the 'fartiness' on the low end comes from.?. IF you want to decrease the low end of the BF/SF amps but not lose all of that lower end, anything less than a .1mfd will change it.... .068mfd or .047mfd. The Tweed Deluxes prior to the 5E3 used .05mfds there. INteresting that Fender used a bigger cap in that 5E3 than they did in the 5F6A, isn't it? Marshalls use the 5F6A/hi-power Twin values in the 'clones' they started out with. I use silver mica treble caps....same value as stock.
You can also change the slope resistor to a 56K...this affects the mid freq curve. IF there is not enough low end for a single coil, then go to a bigger bass cap. I have used .033mfd in some cases. IT isn't rocket science...and these mods have been around a long time. Dave Funk explains it well in his book. These reversible mods make for a much more versatile amp compared to stock, ime. You will have to get an A/B pedal once you hear the 'option'.

[Rob DiStefano]

having played through many different tube amps since the mid 50's, i like those lowly single ended, cathode biased tube amps like the 5f1 champ or 5f2 prince best of all. no, not known for "pristine clean" unless played at really low volumes (and if need be, mic'd through the pa system to fit in the mix). there's something dynamically harmonically magical with this type of tube amp. i own more than a few and i'm building another 5f1 right now. everyone should have at least one good 3 tube champ.

[RubyRae]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Some real good points and suggestions. I think most of us know the difference between tweed clean, brown clean, and blackface clean, so clean being relative to the amp (in this case tweed). If you want it call if furry, hairy, curly, or moe, feel free. JTM45Blues nailed it in his 3rd post, and I couldn't agree more.

I also like your suggestion Wally about modding the normal channel of the various blackface amps. Depending on what I could get my hands on and the calculated risk of modding any good vintage amp will have to be determined.

I have loved playing my clean Princeton amp for a long time now, but the tone I am searching for comes in the tweed family, so will just need to see what I can find and afford. I think the Tremolux in the larger cab would be a great amp to have.