Educate me on why one costs more than the other...

[NeckP90]

HI, I've just sold a load of old music stuff on eBay and am now in the market for a new small-ish combo. But I've been out of the market for a long while and don't understand what you get for your money any more. So, for example, I see a Pro Junior for (here in the UK) for £400+, all valve, 15 watts. THen I see a Princeton Reverb, all valve, 15 watts, £900+. What am I paying the extra £500 for? (No, not the reverb tank!)

I totally get why a Custom SHop guitar costs what it does but where does the differential on these mass produced amps come from. This is a serious question by the way, not a sarcastic moan! Cheers for any enlightenment.

[SamClemons]

Here are three things I would note, and someone correct me if I am wrong. Princeton, tube rectifier, Pro jr. electronic, Princeton, real reverb tank, Pro. Jr. electronic, Princeton, better speaker (opinion) Jensen, Pro Jr. Eminence. Does the pro jr. have a vibrato like the Princeton? I don't think so.

Bottom line is I, like many others, really, really like the Princeton. I do not care for the sound of the Pro Jr. and would not buy one, but others do. I lot of folks modify them. For a cheap amp, really like the Peavey Classic 20

[Wally]

IF the Princeton Reverb is a vintage amp, then teh big difference is that he Princeton REverb is a handwired amp while the PRo JR. is PCB construtction.
Teh PRinceton Reverb has reverb and a bias-vary tremolo effect. The PRo JR. is a straight ahead no-frills amp. IIRC, the PRo JR does not have a reverb function.
For me, there is no problem deciding between these two amps. I would take the handwired vintage amp any day of the week over the modern PCB amp.....given that both amp are original and in proper working order. Even if the PRinceton Reverb needed recapping, it would be my choice. The vintage amp will always be worth what you give---if you buy correctly---and could possibly go up in value. I am not on top of the market there. but if that is a BF PRinceton REverb, the deal just got better.
Note: buying vintage demands some awareness on the part of the buyer so that one knows what one is paying for, right? Caveat emptor. HEre is a l ink to some articles that will inform one as to the details that need to be understood to assure thatone is not being ripped off.

http://www.superchamp.dk/papers/dati..._tube_amps.htm

[Billm]

Even if it's a reissue Princeton Reverb, it has easily twice as many components inside as the Pro Junior, including larger transformers and a reverb driver transformer. It has adjustable bias, 6V6s, more tubes, and more hand assembly than the PJ. The pots are higher quality, too.

And it sounds more than twice as good as a Pro Junior.

[Dave_O]

EDIT: While writing this Wally and Billm have posted. Listen to these guys- they know their stuff.

I've used the Fender Amp Field Guide to prompt my memory here

Despite the similar power rating, the Princeton Reverb and the Pro Jr are 2 very different amps.

The Pro Jr is more similar to the Blues Jr than a Princeton. 15watts from 2 x EL84 or 6BQ5s, SS recto, PCB construction. A simpler, although more modern (and less tech-friendly) design. I've played through (not owned, though) a really nice sounding Pro Jr: 2 knobs only- "Volume" and "Tone". No reverb on the one I played. I checked out quite a few when I was in the market for a 15watter, but every one I played sounded blah. I ended up buying an Ibanez TSA15 head and matching cab.

The BF(AA1164 --'64 to '67) and SF(AB868, AB1270; '69 to '81) Princeton Reverb is an older PTP design with a valve recto and 6V6s. I've heard the BF versions in the flesh -- they sound like angels singing...
Although, just to confuse matters, some " "SF" (AB1270) Princeton Reverbs produced between late 1980 and 1981 have a black control panel and silver sparkle grille cloth" according to the FAFG.

The 80s era Princeton Reverb II has a SS recto, and is rated at 20watts.

[Telebrand]

Simple answer is more components and better components.

[NeckP90]

More components and better components??? I understand that adding reverb vibrato will add cost and complexity, but are the basic elements of the amp that different? What difference does a bigger transformer make for example. And what is a 'better' component? Do you mean longer-lasting or one that sound better because....

PS Yes, I was looking at the resissue Princeton not a vintage.

[Stubee]

Simple answer to me is plain old marketing: the Princeton Reverb is perceived as worth more by consumers. It ain't about "we've got X$ in costs in this amp so must sell it for Y$". I say this as an old marketing guy.

The Princeton does have more features but is mainly targeted toward a different market. There are plenty of amps out there with minimal features/high price, BTW.

I have a SFPR & a PJ, love 'em both, very different amps.

[andyfromdenver]

Neck, you do bring up a fairly valid, maybe can o worms post/point (ohh I'm gonna start a website called post/point...). I would dare to venture about $200 is model charge. I've never played a pro j, but several players I know and trust seem to like them. Don't get me wrong, as I am firmly in Wally's camp as I own a '71 PR, but when discussing the reissue, it's mostly cause the Princeton has skyrocketed in popularity.
As an aside, my father in law bought one for $50 in the seventies when he walked by a hippie house and they had it hanging in the tree from a party the night before. Apparently they weren't always so prized. And plus, I mean, have you seen the cool video of Jim Campilongo playing one!?! He probably sold several hundred for Fender on the strength of his awesomeness.

[Wally]

The PRo JR and the PRRI are both PCB amps. However, the PRRi's consturction is much more costly.
The PRo Jr is built with a single board holding all of the jacks and controls on the front panel and the tube sockets are PCB-mounted. In the PRRI...as with all PRo Tube SEreis Fenders and the REiisue Series....the jacks and controls on the front panel are on their own PCb that is wired to a PCB that lies in themiddle of the chassis. The tube sockets are chassis-mounted and are wired tot he main PCB. This, probably as much as the addition of the two tube driven effects, drives the production cost of the PRRI up to another level.
So, I don't think it is simply the marketing approach of 'we can get more out of it so let's charge more' philosophy. There is definitely a difference in how the two amps are built and what that difference costs.

[greggorypeccary]

I'd say it's a combination of cost plus the marketing aspect of the Princeton being a "vintage reissue" amp.

Are those PRRI's MIA or MIM?

Of course, the simple answer here is that they are completely different amps!


Either way, I'd rather just find a nice SFPR, myself....

[Billm]

It ain't about "we've got X$ in costs in this amp so must sell it for Y$". I say this as an old marketing guy.

That is often true, but not in the case of the PRRI. It's not a "We can charge X because it's cool" item. Without saying too much, I am rather sure that Fender's build cost for the PRRI is almost the same as the DRRI. Both are built in the US, both use US-built iron.

When the PRRI came out, some people were strongly critical of the street price. I'm not trying to be a Fender-defender, but I believe the pricing is what it should be for the cost of goods and build cost.

[NeckP90]

The PRo Jr is built with a single board holding all of the jacks and controls on the front panel and the tube sockets are PCB-mounted. In the PRRI...as with all PRo Tube SEreis Fenders and the REiisue Series....the jacks and controls on the front panel are on their own PCb that is wired to a PCB that lies in themiddle of the chassis. The tube sockets are chassis-mounted and are wired tot he main PCB. This, probably as much as the addition of the two tube driven effects, drives the production cost of the PRRI up to another level.

OK, that all makes sense re the labour cost, but do these construction techniques have any impact on the actual sound?

[SamClemons]

I would say they have more effect on the durabillity than the sound. I hate input jacks, tube sockets, etc. mounted directly to a pcb board. I don't know how many of these I have repaired with broken solder joints.

[Silverface]

NeckP90 - Wally is one of the most experienced amp guys on this forum. You would do well to learn from such posts and not question the veracity or reasoning behind them.

PCB-mounted pots and jacks are the cheapest form of tube amp construction. Durability-wise there's an exponential difference - hard shocks or extended vibration to the chassis can (and does) break traces with PCB-mounted components. Those components are also a different type then panel-attached parts; cheaper and not meant to withstand heavy usage.

Sound-wise you can only compare same-type circuits that are made using PCB-mount vs panel mount (or chassis-mount, in the case of tube sockets) parts; these are two completely different amps.

The major differences are:

1. The PR has a far more complicated circuit and is made with higher-quality (read=more expensive) resistors and capacitors than the PJ. The added components require a more robust build quality than the simple PJ.
2. The PR has panel-mounted controls; more expensive, more reliable and easier to service than PCB-mount controls.

There's nothing inherently "wrong" with a PJ, and there are plenty of mods available on the internet, from replacing specific parts to improve tone to wholesale circuit board replacement with hand-wired boards. Same with the reissue of the PR, which is no match durability or service-wise for the original hand-wired model.

I suggest doing some reading - Dave Hunter's Guitar Amp Handbook is a good intro into tube amps and how certain parts work (and why some are more expensive). There are also plenty of internet sites with more in-depth amp discussion forums that you can read through to learn about the differences - durability, service ease, cost and tone - between PCB-mount amps, partial-PCB amps, and hand-wired amps.

But as far as comparing the PJ and PR you're comparing apples and oranges. One simple has far more features, components and a better build quality than the other.\\

Tone differences become unimportant if the amp is to be used heavily and won't hold up.

[Wally]

NeckP90, please take Silverface's comments on my observations with a grain...er... block of salt. (:^) I appreciate Silverface's comments--thanks you kind sir!, but I would defer to BillM on the last question posed by NEckP90. BillM has vast experience with these FEnder amps like the Pro JR, Blues, JR and the HOt Rod SEries. All of these amps are built similarly. IIRC, BillM has gone so far as to identify problems with the ribbon cnnectors that are used. HE has separated one wire out of a ribbon in order to deal with inducted noise in the Blues JR, IIRC.
IF a PCB design is well-thought out and well-built, then the sonics will not suffer. Imho, that is more the case with the PRo Tube SEries and theREissue Fenders. Their PCB design and construction is better, imho, and is more expensive to build. The sockets are wired much like the handwired amps were. There are fewer sitautions where problems of induced noise occur....and in some situations those types of problems can be dealt with more easily.

FWIW, at 1000 pounds, I would look to see if I could find a Silver FAce Princeton REverb....handwired, last-long-time construction, and the possibility of increased value down the line...or maybe at least it would keep pace with inflation, right? Or...for my money, I would buy a used PRRI long before I would pay the new price for one if I could not find a used SF or BF example. And......of the 'inexpensive' PCB Tube amps that Fender builds, I like the PRo JR. the most. I wouldn't buy a new one of them, though, either. When you walk out the door that day, you have lost a chunk of that change.

[Stubee]

Guys, I agree the Princeton is 'more amp' than a PJ, had both for years. Just trying to clarify that value to us consumers often has very little to do with 'cost'. No big deal...

I have great respect for the opinions of amp experts here & as this ain't the "Marketing Subforum" I'll desist.

[tweeddeluxe]

Originally Posted by Billm

And it sounds more than twice as good as a Pro Junior.

Wow, more than twice as good?! There you go

[NeckP90]

You would do well to learn from such posts and not question the veracity or reasoning behind them.

Silverface, I don't want to make a big deal about this, but can you please point out where I did any such thing?

[beep.click]

Originally Posted by NeckP90

I see a Princeton Reverb, all valve, 15 watts, £900+. What am I paying the extra £500 for? (No, not the reverb tank!)

You're paying money to someone or some entity, somewhere, and that's where it gets complicated.

For awhile, here in the States, the going rate for new reissue Princetons was $800-900. I got mine for $600, because the chain store I bought it from didn't want to carry that model any more.

In a market economy, prices work that way. Recently, I paid $4.25 for a gallon of gas -- a week and a half later, I'm paying $3.55 a gallon at the same station.

In short: you're paying the extra £500 to close the deal. You might not have to pay that exact amount tomorrow, and you might not have to pay that particular price to some guy down the street, for an identical item. You might pay way less, and you might pay way more.

P.S. I used to do pricing for a living. I can assure you, pricing almost NEVER works the way people think it does.