59 Bassman - a bit of history please

Robin Nahum · April 26th, 2005, 09:33 PM

My amp tech showed me into his workshop recently to see a real '59 Bassman on which he was working.

I know that people like them a lot but I was not aware of the significance of this model until he explained that it can be considered the starting point for the design used in most contemporary amps, and that its popularity comes about because it sounds great with just about anything you can plug into it. It was quite different from what came before.

The early Marshalls 'borrowed heavily' from the Bassman. At the time, Fender amplifiers were very costly in England and an enterprising Jim Marshall was able to see an opportunity. I imagine that the Bassman cab is where the quad box idea came from.

I had read that the early Boogies were also based on the Bassman but my tech advised that, from the experience of having repaired numerous Boogies, they are based on a Blackface circuit.

Is anybody able to post about what was going on at Fender when the Bassman was designed e.g. whose idea it was and how it differed so significantly from what came before?

shakedancer · April 27th, 2005, 05:56 AM

It was made as a Bass amp for Bass players. Guitar players plugged in and discoved it was great for guitar. The 4-10 speaker compliment made for Bass players then became a standard for great clean guitar sound. Many of your great R@R songs of the fifties( and Blues too) were recorded with a Bassman.

Daddy Elmis · April 27th, 2005, 07:19 AM

This is a pretty interesting summary of the Bassman history:

http://www.tone-lizard.com/Bassman_Myths.htm

Wally · April 27th, 2005, 02:36 PM

thanks for the link, Daddy E. Interesting points.
I am excited to get my first 5F6A back together. I picked up a '58 in sad cosmetic condition a while back. I just got the speakers back from T. Weber. Now, I need to get the tweed on the cab and recap the amp and put her back together. The chrome is near mint, and this thread makes me want to hear it TODAY! The 5F6A truly is one of the benchmarks of guitar amplification. When one is properly functioning, it will make a player smile.

Deacon Blues · April 27th, 2005, 03:20 PM

"I had read that the early Boogies were also based on the Bassman but my tech advised that, from the experience of having repaired numerous Boogies, they are based on a Blackface circuit."

The first Boogies were hotrodded Fender Princetons.

Robin Nahum · April 27th, 2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddy Elmis

This is a pretty interesting summary of the Bassman history:

http://www.tone-lizard.com/Bassman_Myths.htm

A great read. Thank you.

sixty4fairlane · April 27th, 2005, 07:12 PM

Boogies came in princeton cabs for sure but with 4 6l6s in the first boogies the cab is where the similarities ended.

RickC2 · April 29th, 2005, 01:27 PM

re Boogies, the power section was stolen from a Twin, but I believe the preamp was based on the 5F9 Bassman. Randall Smith mentioned this in an interview once, and I recall looking at a MkI schematic and convincing myself it was true.

/rick

mark norwine · April 29th, 2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

until he explained that it can be considered the starting point for the design

Starting point? This circuit was lifted...almost exactly...from a tube book. It's a Western Electric circuit dating from the 30's.

Robin Nahum · April 29th, 2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark norwine

Starting point? This circuit was lifted...almost exactly...from a tube book. It's a Western Electric circuit dating from the 30's.

But used to great effect and in a way that had not been done previously.

Joe K · April 29th, 2005, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakedancer

It was made as a Bass amp for Bass players. Guitar players plugged in and discoved it was great for guitar. The 4-10 speaker compliment made for Bass players then became a standard for great clean guitar sound. Many of your great R@R songs of the fifties( and Blues too) were recorded with a Bassman.

Not too be a wise guy, but if it came out in '59 wouldn't its use trend toward the 60's?

Dust my Broom · May 1st, 2005, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe K

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakedancer

It was made as a Bass amp for Bass players. Guitar players plugged in and discoved it was great for guitar. The 4-10 speaker compliment made for Bass players then became a standard for great clean guitar sound. Many of your great R@R songs of the fifties( and Blues too) were recorded with a Bassman.

Not too be a wise guy, but if it came out in '59 wouldn't its use trend toward the 60's?

59 wasn't the first year of the Bassman.

Paul in Colorado · May 1st, 2005, 12:47 PM

The original Princeton Reverb Boogies had a 60 watt Tweed Bassman power section and a 12" speaker shoehorned into the stock PR cab. The first one was done as a joke on Barry Melton from Country Joe & the Fish. "Hey, let's see how loud we can make Barry's Princeton and watch the look on his face when he fires it up!"

The first Boogie with an extra gain stage was a preamp built for Lee Michaels to run with his Crown amplifiers. When they began to build their own amps, they combined the high gain preamp with the Bassman power section to create the "Super Sixty." Options available were Altec, JBL or (later) EV speakers, Reverb, Graphic EQ and a switchable 60/100 watt power section. The "Super Sixty" was later known as the "Mark I" but not until the "Mark II" came along.

CatfishStudios · April 10th, 2008, 12:23 AM

I believe before 559 the bassman had a sigle 15 inch speaker..was too flubby so they went over to 4 10s..hence the 59 ri name ..wow i just awoke a thread from how long ago? sorry

4 Strings · April 10th, 2008, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatfishStudios

I believe before 559 the bassman had a sigle 15 inch speaker..was too flubby so they went over to 4 10s..hence the 59 ri name ..wow i just awoke a thread from how long ago? sorry

And an interesting thread at that. Thanks for awakening it!

slauson slim · April 10th, 2008, 10:16 AM

Barry Melton still uses that first PR/Boogie at his gigs. It's astonishingly heavy, and its paint and sticker encrusted road case is a living piece of music history.

Kerry Vance · April 10th, 2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatfishStudios

I believe before 559 the bassman had a sigle 15 inch speaker..was too flubby so they went over to 4 10s..hence the 59 ri name ..wow i just awoke a thread from how long ago? sorry

According to the book Fender Amps- The First Fifty Years, the 4x10 configuration showed up in the February '55 price list.

CatfishStudios · April 10th, 2008, 11:38 AM

Thanks for that info..do you know when they stopped the 15 inch version ? And also what changed in 59...why would it not be the 58 ri or the 57 reissue...must be some model change that year or did 59 bassman just sound better?

Wally · April 10th, 2008, 12:06 PM

The last 1X15" Bassman was the 1954. In fact, I had the privilege of working on one of the firs5t 4X10 Bassman amps about 10-12 years ago. It was stamped Dec. of 1954. The circuit was a 5D6...5 for the '50's, D for 1954, and 6 for the model...Bassman.
The 5F6 circuit was designed in '56(F) and produced in '57. The 5F6A, which is the circuit for the '59 came on production in 1958. These two years...'58 and '59...are considered to be one of the prime rock guitar amps.

Scott S · April 10th, 2008, 12:37 PM

Epic bump!

The big change for the 1958 Bassman was the switch from an 83 mercury vapor rectifier tube to the 5AR4. Otherwise, it's the same as a '57.

- Scott

Wally · April 10th, 2008, 12:57 PM

The 5F6A does not have the swamper resistors between the grids of the power tubes. The 5F6 uses a 25mfd bypass cab on the cathode of V2 whereas the 5F6A does not have this cap...in the schematic anyway. The swamper resistor is the biggest sonic change, I think. The two rectifiers are both about as close to SS rectification as you can get with a tube....virtually no sag.

Scott S · April 10th, 2008, 02:49 PM

My bad, I didn't spot the missing grid stoppers.

BTW, Wally, do you know the story behind the "83" rectifiers? Seems like Fender tried them in a bunch of their big amps, but decided against it within a year. Safety, perhaps?

- Scott

Wally · April 10th, 2008, 02:56 PM

Scott, I think it was a case of old design(83) going out while a newer design (5AR4/GZ34) took its place in the range of performance specs.

CatfishStudios · April 10th, 2008, 03:08 PM

Wally and Scott..Thanks for the info..you guys rock! Ever play the 15 inch bassman?

Wally · April 10th, 2008, 03:14 PM

Catfish, I have never had the pleasure. I will say that I have never played a bad tweed Fender...each model has its own identity and they are all good amps, imo. I do love the old 1X15 PRo tweeds...they have similarities to the 1X15 Bassman circuit and yet have differences, also.

TexGoneNW · April 12th, 2008, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

The last 1X15" Bassman was the 1954. In fact, I had the privilege of working on one of the firs5t 4X10 Bassman amps about 10-12 years ago. It was stamped Dec. of 1954. The circuit was a 5D6...5 for the '50's, D for 1954, and 6 for the model...Bassman.
The 5F6 circuit was designed in '56(F) and produced in '57. The 5F6A, which is the circuit for the '59 came on production in 1958. These two years...'58 and '59...are considered to be one of the prime rock guitar amps.

5F6A was also produced in '60.

Like yours, mine was in sad shape. Best $150 I ever spent

Wally · April 12th, 2008, 10:25 AM

Tex, of course you are correct about the '60 tweed. I sometimes forget that 1960 was part of the tweed decade.

April 26th, 2005, 09:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
Robin Nahum Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia Age: 56 Posts: 1,561 12 Photos	59 Bassman - a bit of history please My amp tech showed me into his workshop recently to see a real '59 Bassman on which he was working. I know that people like them a lot but I was not aware of the significance of this model until he explained that it can be considered the starting point for the design used in most contemporary amps, and that its popularity comes about because it sounds great with just about anything you can plug into it. It was quite different from what came before. The early Marshalls 'borrowed heavily' from the Bassman. At the time, Fender amplifiers were very costly in England and an enterprising Jim Marshall was able to see an opportunity. I imagine that the Bassman cab is where the quad box idea came from. I had read that the early Boogies were also based on the Bassman but my tech advised that, from the experience of having repaired numerous Boogies, they are based on a Blackface circuit. Is anybody able to post about what was going on at Fender when the Bassman was designed e.g. whose idea it was and how it differed so significantly from what came before? __________________ RN

April 27th, 2005, 05:56 AM	#2 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,634	It was made as a Bass amp for Bass players. Guitar players plugged in and discoved it was great for guitar. The 4-10 speaker compliment made for Bass players then became a standard for great clean guitar sound. Many of your great R@R songs of the fifties( and Blues too) were recorded with a Bassman. __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE

April 27th, 2005, 03:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
Deacon Blues Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 490	Not exactly... "I had read that the early Boogies were also based on the Bassman but my tech advised that, from the experience of having repaired numerous Boogies, they are based on a Blackface circuit." The first Boogies were hotrodded Fender Princetons. __________________ This is the age of the expanding man.

April 27th, 2005, 07:12 PM	#7 (permalink)
sixty4fairlane Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Shreveport, Louisiana Posts: 293	Princeton with a Twin power section ? Boogies came in princeton cabs for sure but with 4 6l6s in the first boogies the cab is where the similarities ended.

April 27th, 2005, 07:19 AM	#3 (permalink)
Daddy Elmis Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: USA Posts: 958	This is a pretty interesting summary of the Bassman history: http://www.tone-lizard.com/Bassman_Myths.htm

April 27th, 2005, 02:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,530	thanks for the link, Daddy E. Interesting points. I am excited to get my first 5F6A back together. I picked up a '58 in sad cosmetic condition a while back. I just got the speakers back from T. Weber. Now, I need to get the tweed on the cab and recap the amp and put her back together. The chrome is near mint, and this thread makes me want to hear it TODAY! The 5F6A truly is one of the benchmarks of guitar amplification. When one is properly functioning, it will make a player smile.

April 29th, 2005, 01:27 PM	#8 (permalink)
RickC2 TDPRI Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 91	re Boogies, the power section was stolen from a Twin, but I believe the preamp was based on the 5F9 Bassman. Randall Smith mentioned this in an interview once, and I recall looking at a MkI schematic and convincing myself it was true. /rick

May 1st, 2005, 12:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
Paul in Colorado Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fort Collins, CO Age: 55 Posts: 4,012 3 Photos	The original Princeton Reverb Boogies had a 60 watt Tweed Bassman power section and a 12" speaker shoehorned into the stock PR cab. The first one was done as a joke on Barry Melton from Country Joe & the Fish. "Hey, let's see how loud we can make Barry's Princeton and watch the look on his face when he fires it up!" The first Boogie with an extra gain stage was a preamp built for Lee Michaels to run with his Crown amplifiers. When they began to build their own amps, they combined the high gain preamp with the Bassman power section to create the "Super Sixty." Options available were Altec, JBL or (later) EV speakers, Reverb, Graphic EQ and a switchable 60/100 watt power section. The "Super Sixty" was later known as the "Mark I" but not until the "Mark II" came along.

April 10th, 2008, 12:23 AM	#14 (permalink)
CatfishStudios Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon , United States Age: 32 Posts: 713	I believe before 559 the bassman had a sigle 15 inch speaker..was too flubby so they went over to 4 10s..hence the 59 ri name ..wow i just awoke a thread from how long ago? sorry

April 10th, 2008, 10:16 AM	#16 (permalink)
slauson slim Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 667	Barry Melton still uses that first PR/Boogie at his gigs. It's astonishingly heavy, and its paint and sticker encrusted road case is a living piece of music history.

April 10th, 2008, 11:38 AM	#18 (permalink)
CatfishStudios Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon , United States Age: 32 Posts: 713	Thanks for that info..do you know when they stopped the 15 inch version ? And also what changed in 59...why would it not be the 58 ri or the 57 reissue...must be some model change that year or did 59 bassman just sound better?

April 10th, 2008, 12:06 PM	#19 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,530	The last 1X15" Bassman was the 1954. In fact, I had the privilege of working on one of the firs5t 4X10 Bassman amps about 10-12 years ago. It was stamped Dec. of 1954. The circuit was a 5D6...5 for the '50's, D for 1954, and 6 for the model...Bassman. The 5F6 circuit was designed in '56(F) and produced in '57. The 5F6A, which is the circuit for the '59 came on production in 1958. These two years...'58 and '59...are considered to be one of the prime rock guitar amps.

April 10th, 2008, 12:37 PM	#20 (permalink)
Scott S Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SW CR IA US NA PE Age: 27 Posts: 1,211	Epic bump! The big change for the 1958 Bassman was the switch from an 83 mercury vapor rectifier tube to the 5AR4. Otherwise, it's the same as a '57. - Scott

April 10th, 2008, 12:57 PM	#21 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,530	The 5F6A does not have the swamper resistors between the grids of the power tubes. The 5F6 uses a 25mfd bypass cab on the cathode of V2 whereas the 5F6A does not have this cap...in the schematic anyway. The swamper resistor is the biggest sonic change, I think. The two rectifiers are both about as close to SS rectification as you can get with a tube....virtually no sag.

April 10th, 2008, 02:49 PM	#22 (permalink)
Scott S Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SW CR IA US NA PE Age: 27 Posts: 1,211	My bad, I didn't spot the missing grid stoppers. BTW, Wally, do you know the story behind the "83" rectifiers? Seems like Fender tried them in a bunch of their big amps, but decided against it within a year. Safety, perhaps? - Scott

April 10th, 2008, 02:56 PM	#23 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,530	Scott, I think it was a case of old design(83) going out while a newer design (5AR4/GZ34) took its place in the range of performance specs.

April 10th, 2008, 03:08 PM	#24 (permalink)
CatfishStudios Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon , United States Age: 32 Posts: 713	Wally and Scott..Thanks for the info..you guys rock! Ever play the 15 inch bassman?

April 10th, 2008, 03:14 PM	#25 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,530	Catfish, I have never had the pleasure. I will say that I have never played a bad tweed Fender...each model has its own identity and they are all good amps, imo. I do love the old 1X15 PRo tweeds...they have similarities to the 1X15 Bassman circuit and yet have differences, also.

April 12th, 2008, 10:25 AM	#27 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,530	Tex, of course you are correct about the '60 tweed. I sometimes forget that 1960 was part of the tweed decade.