Comparing 1960s Speakers * Jensen * Utah * Oxford * CTS * Eminence * Rola * etc.

[Toppscore]

Originally Posted by StephaninMelb

Here is a Fender 1966 Blackface Twin Reverb with factory JBL D131F belonging to: Oatiehttp://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...d.php?t=940722

AWESOME FANTASTIC
WAY TOO TOTALLY COOL.
I WANT ONE (or TWO)

Toppscore

[Custom Deluxe]

Originally Posted by keithb7

I was tempted to grab an old Rola or Cleveland speaker on Ebay recently when putting together my list of parts on my 5F2A build. I choked and went with a couple of Weber options instead, in the end. I did post a question about the old Rola and Cleveland speakers on this forum, but only got a few responses. Someone claimed they sounded good, but the general consensus seemed to be, go for it and let us know. I never did, but maybe should have. Seems to me that several Leslie and Hammond organs get parted out and have these less popular speakers in them, and end up for say on Ebay.

Well, I know they are reproducing different tones, but a well running Leslie has some of the coolest tone around. If they use the speakers you mentioned above, they'd ought to sound good IMHO.

[Custom Deluxe]

Originally Posted by StephaninMelb

Here is a Fender 1966 Blackface Twin Reverb with factory JBL D131F

belonging to: Oatie

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...d.php?t=940722

Man, I'm surprised that partical board baffle has held up over the years with all of that weight hanging off of it.

[mabley123]

the reason leo started using jbl was because dick dale was blowing ALL of th others up. jenson, cts ect. if you are a very loud guitar player and you have a heavy attack and you crank your amp all the time. the other speakers that originall came with fender amps were not up to the task.

plain and simple.

hendrix went through every celestion they made, emminence, and in the end from what ive read he was using jbl d120f.

dickie betts and duane allman both took the celestions out of thier marshalls and put in jbl d120f. think live at the filmore.

electric ladyland studio was/is all altec lansing equipt.

i do not think ev was original to a fender but SRV used both the jbl e120, jbl e110, and ev 12l and ev 10in.

if i were to but a new speaker it would for me either be a ev12l or a fane.


but for me anything jbl altec and ev are the top of the heap for reliabiliy, tone and and efficiency

[StephaninMelb]

Those JBL D131F are real lookers

The JBL speaker was a real milestone in speaker design. I get real ticked off when companies like Weber state they make a JBL clone when technically what they offer is no where never this level of speaker technology. While it looks impressive on the outside its guts were a fantastic design. Thats why it is an insult to suggest a technology match without similar design features.

As can be seen in the Tube Chart below the JBL D131F were a "special order" item. In a 1966 Blackface Twin Reverb is JB on the Tube Chart for the JBL Speakers and SO written on Production Line section for Special Order. In 1966 Jimmy Hendrix ordered a cousin to this amp.

These speakers with magnets "fully charged," all original factory parts and aluminum domes might just be the "tone kings," but I have a few favourites and not one is perfect for every genre. The D131F is my "big stage" guitar speaker choice for 60s rock in a Fender tube amp backline. I would never ever let a reconner touch these babies that hadn't been a JBL technician employee. A regular reconner can never set these up right and you do need all the original parts and follow the JBL procedure to a T. I believe the same methodology for all great speakers.

Same with Oxfords there are only a few old tech wizards with the parts and experience that know how to setup the Oxfords needed for recording studio work. Most people have never heard an excellent example of the 2 to three excellent Oxford speaker model outside a hearing recording. Most of the time also the general public and guitar amp guys are unaware which amp speakers were used on what. People outside recording haven't a clue about the speakers used by the various large studios.

Thats why I laughed when I first heard the "Oxfart" jokes, because I knew these people hadn't a clue from a recording engineer or transducer acoustics engineer perspective. The joke was that starting in 1966 on Oxford are crap speakers, because they have excessive "voice coil gap." I can't see any actual basis in recording studios how this is true for what is considered a highly regarded product in that sector. What is odd is that for over 20 years that a few of the Oxford speaker models have been used to record 1000s of some of the most popular hit songs. So wouldn't be funny if one of those gets selected for world's historically best guitar amp speakers. The irony of it. From my perspective there have been a number of really great speakers from Oxford, Celestion and JBL. I would have to throw in a couple of the Jensens too. Each of them have speakers that are Tone Kings in specific genres.

It appears Ted Weber started the Oxford rumours and for over 10 years it propagated through sites like TDPRI and some of its members. Lots and lots of Oxford speakers ended up in the public dump because of the bad mouthing.

Just by coincidence this week I learned that Weber had Quality Control Issues when assembling speakers for Scumback, a former OEM client account of theirs. The issue was around excessive "voice coil gap." As everyone now knows Scumback and Weber ceased doing business together in a real public %&*-fight.

While I am having significant issues with the last few batches of speakers I received (2 out of 3 bad/built wrong discovered today alone), every speaker I sent out in the last two months was checked, run through FBI, or mounted in a cab and played by me personally to make sure it was good before it shipped.

It's taken a considerable amount of extra time weeding out the bad ones, and I have a nice pile going here that cannot be rebuilt due to having out of round frames/excessive gap/noises/vibrational rattles and loose magnet issues. When I get the time I'll be sending them back to Weber for credit, or just trash them, and take the loss. The whole scenario behind this has been so distasteful and disgusting that I'm going to concentrate on my new production line progress, and deal with this problem later.

Jim Seavall
Scumback Speakers & Cabs

[StephaninMelb]

From Fender '63 Vibroverb Owners Manual

Your “new” ‘63 VIBROVERB amplifier is living proof of the quality and longevity of Fender amplifier designs. Fender first introduced the VIBROVERB in the early part of 1963. Unlike many of the other Fender amplifiers that were produced for years, this version of the VIBROVERB had a production life of less than 4 months. It is estimated that fewer than 600 VIBROVERB units were ever produced.

This limited production is one of the reasons this amplifier has become highly sought after by vintage amp collectors. The VIBROVERB was the first Fender production model to have both reverb and vibrato as built-in “effects”.

The original VIBROVERB shows Fender in a transitional period with amplifiers changing from tweed covering to brown “Tolex” and eventually to black “Tolex.” In the summer and fall of 1963, Fender changed the speaker configuration of the VIBROVERB to a 15 inch speaker and the brown “Tolex” covering changed to black. The single 15 inch model is also fairly rare, but the 2-10 version is legendary.

The speakers used in the ‘63 VIBROVERB are reproductions of the original speakers made by the Oxford Speaker Company. When Fender started work on this project, Fender contacted Oxford who still had much of the original tooling and documentation of this 10 inch speaker from the early sixties.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by Toppscore

Aaaahhhhhhhhh.
I hear that response all the time.
Which speaker sounds best to YOU?
If you had to buy just one 1960s speaker,
which one would you choose?

Toppscore

I prefer 50's speakers.

My favorites:
P12Q
P10R

My favorite modern speakers:
Eminence Red Fang
Fender/Eminence Blue Frame 10's.

[Toppscore]

Originally Posted by mabley123

the reason leo started using jbl was because dick dale was blowing ALL of th others up. jenson, cts ect. if you are a very loud guitar player and you have a heavy attack and you crank your amp all the time. the other speakers that originall came with fender amps were not up to the task. plain and simple. hendrix went through every celestion they made, emminence, and in the end from what ive read he was using jbl d120f.
dickie betts and duane allman both took the celestions out of thier marshalls and put in jbl d120f. think live at the filmore. electric ladyland studio was/is all altec lansing equipt. i do not think ev was original to a fender but SRV used both the jbl e120, jbl e110, and ev 12l and ev 10in. if i were to but a new speaker it would for me either be a ev12l or a fane. but for me anything jbl altec and ev are the top of the heap for reliabiliy, tone and and efficiency

Fantastic info. Thank you, Mabley123.
Celestions out of Marshalls???? Is that legal?
Toppscore

[Toppscore]

Originally Posted by StephaninMelb

Same with Oxfords there are only a few old tech wizards with the parts and experience that know how to setup the Oxfords needed for recording studio work. Most people have never heard an excellent example of the 2 to three excellent Oxford speaker model outside a hearing recording. Most of the time also the general public and guitar amp guys are unaware which amp speakers were used on what. People outside recording haven't a clue about the speakers used by the various large studios.
Thats why I laughed when I first heard the "Oxfart" jokes, because I knew these people hadn't a clue from a recording engineer or transducer acoustics engineer perspective. The joke was that starting in 1966 on Oxford are crap speakers, because they have excessive "voice coil gap." I can't see any actual basis in recording studios how this is true for what is considered a highly regarded product in that sector. What is odd is that for over 20 years that a few of the Oxford speaker models have been used to record 1000s of some of the most popular hit songs. So wouldn't be funny if one of those gets selected for world's historically best guitar amp speakers. The irony of it. From my perspective there have been a number of really great speakers from Oxford, Celestion and JBL. I would have to throw in a couple of the Jensens too. Each of them have speakers that are Tone Kings in specific genres. It appears Ted Weber started the Oxford rumours and for over 10 years it propagated through sites like TDPRI and some of its members. Lots and lots of Oxford speakers ended up in the public dump because of the bad mouthing. Just by coincidence this week I learned that Weber had Quality Control Issues when assembling speakers for Scumback, a former OEM client account of theirs. The issue was around excessive "voice coil gap." As everyone now knows Scumback and Weber ceased doing business together in a real public %&*-fight.

Stephanin. I am the OP of this thread. I really enjoyed your discussion of the Oxford speakers. Over time, while studying speakers, one gets the feeling that Oxford, CTS, Utah, Rola, Cleveland, etc were only used when Fender was low on inventory. That none of these speakers could stand up to Jensen. Starting and reading this thread has definitely helped to change my mind.

Stephanin & Wally and others who have helped with great comments;
Following are two amps I just purchased and they have yet to arrive.
Maybe you could glance at the original speakers (CTS & Fender OEM)
and let me know what you think? Did the following two amps in 1964 and 1968
always ship with CTS for the 1964 Super Reverb? or Fender OEM for the 1968
Twin Reverb? Should I be thinking about getting JBLs?

Also, if you kindly checked out the listings, if you have ANY OTHER COMMENTS
about the two new family members, please comment. Thank you.

1) 1968 Fender Twin Reverb * Speakers state Fender
and no mention of the OEM name. Amp is in shipment:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110839553107...84.m1439.l2649

2) 1964 Fender Super Reverb * all four speakers are original CTS:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270921324376...84.m1439.l2649

Toppscore

[StephaninMelb]

Blackface Super Reverb had three speaker types in production in 64 through 68 production years.

• CTS
• Oxford 10L6
• Jensen P10R AlNiCo

EAI Manufacturer ID Numbers for Blackface Super Reverb Speakers

Jensen = 220
CTS = 137
Oxford = 465

[StephaninMelb]

In regards to 1968 Silverface Twin Reverb there was ONE speaker type used for this amp model for 67 through 81 production years:

• Jensen C12N

The Chassis Serial number: A14690 is appropriate for 1968 production year. The codes on the Tube Chart will allow you to work out the specific production month. I am unable to read the information from the eBay Tube Chart photo but I expect one you receive the amp there will be no issues. This "drip edge" version of the first production period of the Silverface is the most desirable for collectors and returns a premium value. Silverface Twins are currently undervalued and I expect at some near point prices should start heading back up. SF Twins are a great amp.

Power Transformer Code
It hard to read in the eBay photo but appears it might be

022xxx
606 727

1967 production year in 27th week.

Output Transformer Code:

022099
606-7-40

It was made in 40th week of 1967

The Silverface Twin Reverb Output Transformer used 4 ohm taps for the Internal dual speaker pair and the External Speaker Jack.

[Toppscore]

Originally Posted by StephaninMelb

In regards to 1968 Silverface Twin Reverb there was ONE speaker type used for this amp model for 67 through 81 production years:

• Jensen C12N

The Chassis Serial number: A14690 is appropriate for 1968 production year. The codes on the Tube Chart will allow you to work out the specific production month. I am unable to read the information from the eBay Tube Chart photo but I expect one you receive the amp there will be no issues. This "drip edge" version of the first production period of the Silverface is the most desirable for collectors and returns a premium value. Silverface Twins are currently undervalued and I expect at some near point prices should start heading back up. SF Twins are a great amp.

The Power Transformer code is hard to read in the eBay photo but appears it might be 022xxx 606-727 = 1967 production year in 27th week.

The Output Transformer code listed are: 022099 606-7-40
This was made in 40th week of 1967

The Silverface Twin Reverb Output Transformer used 4 ohm taps for the Internal dual speaker pair and the External Speaker Jack.

Stephanin; Thank you very much for taking the time.
He actually shipped it today, so should arrive soon.
The seller told me about the only 1968 item was the tube chart,
probably "RA" January 1968 if they have those two numbers in 1968.
That is why he advertised 1967/1968.
Said the tube chart has AB763.
So, from what I have been reading, it should be a Silverface with Blackface
circuitry that will not need an added Blackface modification.
Even "if" it is not a Blackface circuit, I will leave it alone, not matter.

Seller stated the speakers state "Fender" on them.
Are you thinking the "Fender" speaker's actual OEM is Jensen C12N????
That would be real cool.
And you stated that Fender only shipped Jensen C12Ns for several years
from 1967 through 1981. So, are the "Fender" labeled speakers OK?
Are they really Jensen C12N's in disguise?
Thanks again and looking forward to your response. Toppscore

[Toppscore]

Originally Posted by StephaninMelb

In regards to 1964 Blackface Super Reverb there were two speaker types used for this amp model for 64 through 68 production years:

• CTS
• Oxford 10L6

Either type is appropriate

So, the 4x10 CTS is original to the 1964 Super Reverb cabinet.
Even though "appropriate", are they desirable?
Could I pull them and put in four JBL's??? or even four Jensens?

If I did put in four Jensens, what Jensen model would you suggest?
C10N's C10Q's C10P's P10Q's ???
I desire lower bluesy tones, than bright aggressive tones.
Or, maybe a combination of 2x10 C10N's on the bottom and C10Qs on top?
. . . . and save the four CTS speakers for another day if I ever sell.

What do you think? I seldom hear about CTS, as I hear Jensen all day long.

Within your past experiences, do CTS 4x10's sound good?
Thanks again. Toppscore

[BobbyZ]

With a Super Reverb there is lot's of love for the CTS speakers. If your lucky with the Twin Reverb it'll have C12Ns. (well I like them)
If your real real real lucky none of these speakers will have problems.

[Toppscore]

Originally Posted by BobbyZ

With a Super Reverb there is lot's of love for the CTS speakers.
If your lucky with the Twin Reverb it'll have C12Ns. (well I like them).
If your real real real lucky none of these speakers will have problems.

Thanks, BobbyZ.




GOSH!!! I WANNA BE LUCKY!!! PLEASE

I have my legs crossed, fingers crossed, tongue tied,
Saint Patty's Day Green Briefs
Drinking Saint Patty's Day Green Beer
Eating Lucky Charms
Got Rabbits-Foot in Pocket

Mirrors around the house, Garlic on the front door,
Crosses on my chest, . . . . oh, sorry, that's for something else.

[BobbyZ]

You should be fine I'm just unlucky with speakers. Maybe I play too loud?
Sent my brother a youtube link of me playing a few amps and the first thing he said was "so do your ears ring all the time?"

[Toppscore]

Originally Posted by BobbyZ

You should be fine I'm just unlucky with speakers. Maybe I play too loud? Sent my brother a youtube link of me playing a few amps and the first thing he said was "so do your ears ring all the time?"

Let's see the YouTube???

[StephaninMelb]

Originally posted by Toppscore
Stephanin; Thank you very much for taking the time.
He actually shipped it today, so should arrive soon.
The seller told me about the only 1968 item was the tube chart,
probably "RA" January 1968 if they have those two numbers in 1968.
That is why he advertised 1967/1968.
Said the tube chart has AB763.
So, from what I have been reading, it should be a Silverface with Blackface
circuitry that will not need an added Blackface modification.
Even "if" it is not a Blackface circuit, I will leave it alone, not matter.

Seller stated the speakers state "Fender" on them.
Are you thinking the "Fender" speaker's actual OEM is Jensen C12N????
That would be real cool.
And you stated that Fender only shipped Jensen C12Ns for several years
from 1967 through 1981. So, are the "Fender" labeled speakers OK?
Are they really Jensen C12N's in disguise?
Thanks again and looking forward to your response. Toppscore

Fender on some speaker models like the Jensen C12N applied Fender labels on the dome caps. This was perfectly normal. In most Fender price lists during 60s and 70s regardless of speaker model Fender identified the speakers generically as "heavy duty speaker" without identifying the brand & model. The main exception were JBL speakers which were a prominent option. It is also possible they might have listed Electro Voice (EV) speakers as an option in some price lists.


Blackface Twin Reverb introduced with AA763 circuit
A00001 to A01200 - 1964 <-- 2 x Oxford 12T6 12" speakers
A01201 to A04300 - 1965
A04301 to A07000 - 1966 <-- JBL D-120F speaker option introduced

Silverface Twin Reverb
1967-69

• Stock factory OEM speaker configuration at Silverface Twin Reverb Amp introduction is: 2 x Jensen C12N speakers. These speakers had a Fender blue label applied on the dome cover.
• Other OEM speaker brands replaced the Jensen C12N at later dates: Oxford 12T6 12" and Utah 12" (later became Pyle Speakers). The exact amp production years these speaker models apply to at this stage is unclear.

Confusion is created by speakers swapped out during warranty repairs to other brands and owners in early years swapping to other speaker brands. Reconing wasn't a common business until 1970s, so prior to this time period it was common to install a new speakers to replace blown ones. All these situations make it hard later to track OEM speaker factory installation time periods in Silverface Twin Reverbs.

[Toppscore]

HOLY MOLY MONSTER MOUNTAIN FREAKIN' LOAD OF AWESOME INFO OVERLOAD!!!!

I am going to copy all of this and comment later

After a very heavy DIGESTION PERIOD

Toppscore

[mabley123]

[QUOTE=StephaninMelb;4004951]In regards to 1968 Silverface Twin Reverb there was ONE speaker type used for this amp model for 67 through 81 production years:


that is not correct.

from 1965 on anything 15 inch speaker....jbl df series was the factory original upgrade. then in 66 you could get the jbl d120f and also the jbl d110f... they ( jbl) were all offered as factory upgrade from the 60's until the 80's when they stopped making the jbl e120-e110-e140.

d110f was offered in the super reverb.

in the 60's and i believe maybe into the very very early 70's the jbl d120f was the factory offered upgrde for a twin reverb and anything that had a 12 in it. the came the jbl k series. then came the e series which was the last and most powerful series..

here is some info from dick dales site and the historical account as to why those speakers ( jensen, cts ect... ) dont hold up worth a crap if you are a loud player and a player that demands the most reliability, efficiency and power handling. even the df series could be blown if pushed hard enough long enough.

Leo Fender gave the Fender Stratocaster along with a Fender Amp to Dale and told him to beat it to death and tell him what he thought of it. Dale took the guitar and started to beat it to death, and he blew up Leo Fender's amp and blew out the speaker. Dale proceeded to blow up forty nine amps and speakers; they would actually catch on fire. Leo would say, 'Dick, why do you have to play so loud?' Dale would explain that he wanted to create the sound of Gene Krupa the famous jazz drummer that created the sounds of the native dancers in the jungles along with the roar of mother nature's creature's and the roar of the ocean.

Leo Fender kept giving Dale amps and Dale kept blowing them up! Till one night Leo and his right hand man Freddy T. went down to the Rendezvous Ballroom on the Balboa Peninsula in Balboa, California and stood in the middle of Four Thousand screaming dancing Dick Dale fans and said to Freddy, I now know what Dick Dale is trying to tell me. Back to the drawing board. A special 85 watt output transformer was made that peaked 100 watts when dale would pump up the volume of his amp, this transformer would create the sounds along with Dale's style of playing, the kind of sounds that Dale dreamed of. BUT! they now needed a speaker that would handle the power and not burn up from the volume that would come from Dale's guitar.

Leo, Freddy and Dale went to the James B. Lansing speaker company, and they explained that they wanted a fifteen inch speaker built to their specifications. That speaker would soon be known as the 15'' JBL -D130 speaker. It made the complete package for Dale to play through and was named the Single Showman Amp. When Dale plugged his Fender Stratocaster guitar into the new Showman Amp and speaker cabinet, Dale became the first creature on earth to jump from the volume scale of a modest quiet guitar player on a scale of 4 to blasting up through the volume scale to TEN! That is when Dale became the "Father of Heavy Metal" as quoted from Guitar Player Magazine. Dale broke through the electronic barrier limitations of that era!

Dale still wanted to go further, and as the crowds increased, Dale's volume increased, but he still wanted a bigger punch with thickness in the sound so that it would pulsate into the audience and leave them breathless. The JBL-D130 was doing its job until Dale froze it in the frame that held the speaker, the speaker cone would twist from the heavy playing from Dale and it would soon twist and stop to fluctuate back n forth.

Leo, Freddy and Dale went back to the JBL speaker company and told them to rubberize the front ridge of the speaker allowing it to push forward and backward from the signal of Dale's guitar without cocking and twisting. The new updated version was called the JBL D-130F; the F stood for Fender.

Leo, Freddy and Dale designed a speaker cabinet and in which they installed 2 -15''-JBL-D130F's. This caused Leo Fender to have to create a new and more powerful output transformer, they would call it the Dick Dale Transformer and it was made by the Triad Company.

This became the 100 watt output transformer that would actually peak 180 watts. Nothing like this had ever been done before in the world of guitars and amplifiers. This became known as the Dual-Showman Piggy Back Amp. This is why Dick Dale is called the Father of all the power Players in the world


i bought a 100 watt carvin back in 72. it had cts speakers in it. 2 x 15. you would think 2 cts 15's could handle 100 watts rms.... solid state power too ? i had waited on my new amp my grandmother bought me for 2 months.

of course i turned it up to 20 and it blew both the speakers into oblivion. it had a lifetime guarantee but my grandmother bought me 2 x 15 altec 418 -8h series speakers. i never looked back and i still have the speakers in the original carvin cabinet and they still have the original cones and are in perfect condition and have taken all the 100 watt rms amps ( dimed ) i have thrown at them and never complained 1 time....in 40 years!!!!!!!!!!!!

i also have jbl e120's in a 4 x 12 cabinet. same for them. and 2 e120's in a fender cyber twin. ive tried to blow them. hook up every effect possible and make it where everything is maxed out amp included and just make noise and see if they blow. wih 100 watts? they do not even move. nothing.

so the story for me is...my cts 2 x 15 lasted less than 1 second after i dimed the amp and hit a chord. the altecs are still alive and kicking after 40 years.