Need Help with 1964-1968 Fender REVERB Amps * SHOWMAN BANDMASTER TWIN SUPER REVERB * - Telecaster Guitar Forum
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Old March 10th, 2012, 01:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Need Help with 1964-1968 Fender REVERB Amps * SHOWMAN BANDMASTER TWIN SUPER REVERB *

Please help me to better understand these four amps. Thank you. I have a few questions or concerns. Instead or three or four different TDPRI threads about 1960s Fender Reverb amps and reverb trays, I hope having one TDPRI thread to cover all areas would be good.

1) The Fender Twin Reverb & Fender Super Reverb amplifiers were both introduced in late 1963, and I have an early 1964 Blackface Super Amp and am searching for a Twin Reverb.

2) The Fender Bandmaster Reverb TFL5005D and the Fender Dual Showman Reverb TFL5000D amplifiers were both introduced in 1968 as Silverface “Drip Edge” models and I own both early 1968s.

The Bandmaster Reverb & 1964 Super Reverb are both in transit. During the past few months I've purchased amps for myself and friends/customers. We want to know what is possible with these four 1960s Fender Reverb Amps. The 1964 Super Reverb is in incredible condition and will arrive next week. This weekend I’ll pick-up the 1968 Bandmaster Reverb TFL5005. I've had the 1968 Fender Dual Showman Reverb TFL5000D for a short time, but have waited until the other amps arrive.

We all want to get the amps into best player condition possible. Hopefully, all three will sound great & equal. After searching the market, I’ll buy one or two Weber Attenuators with head-phone jacks for non-D!CK DALE volume controls - LOL

My questions are:
1) Do or will all four amps use the same footswitches?
Some amps will arrive with originals and I've purchased two footswitches (they have not arrived). They are two black two-button footswitches with the “VIB/REV” separate switch buttons. I’ve had seller reassurance they’ll work.
Question: Did I get the wrong or correct footswitches that will work with all four amps? They have the two RCA jacks and I believe the amps will receive RCA plugs. I could be wrong? Will a “one- button” footswitch work with these amps and/or make sense? Will the amps work with either “one or two” buttons? I’m not sure if vibrato is on a switchable channel with these four amps. As I recall, the last few faceplate controls are "Reverb-Speed-Intensity" on all four amps. Are they still separately switchable? See my confusion?

2) I have read that the Fender Twin Reverb and the Fender Dual Showman Reverb are kissing cousins, except for a couple of extra power tubes. Is this true? Are the capacitors resistors tubes & chassis components the same between these two amps? Are there other similarities? Use the same trannys & choke?

3) I just bought a 1968 Fender 40w Bandmaster Reverb. The seller (an amp technician) said that essentially the 40w Bandmaster Reverb is almost identical to the 40w Super Reverb. Is this true? Are the chassis similar or the same? He said the two chassis’ are so close they could be switchable? Can they share the same parts? same transformers & choke?

4) For the life of me, what the H#LL is TFL??? What do the TFL5000D and TFL5005 stand for? I know the “D” is for domestic rather than an “X” for export. It was suggested that TFL meant Teflon for wire coating, away from cloth covered wires ~ but someone killed that idea stating that Teflon coated wires were used in the 1970s, not TFL 1968. What about the 5000 or 5005 numbers ~ any ideas?
The best I’ve heard is when making the Dual Showman Reverb, Fender insiders said “this amp is Too Freakin’ LOUD” = TFL – seriously.

5) Last but not least ~ The Reverb Pans!!! I understand Gibbs & Accutronics are reverb units that Fender installed or are good replacements. Two of the amps will arrive with bottom panel reverb units and I believe one will arrive with a speaker baffle mounted reverb unit. Some reverbs from Fender naturally shipped with the bottom mounted reverb trays (I believe the very first “very few” very early 1968 Bandmasters & 1968 Showmans had bottom mounted reverb). I was told that there are part numbers for side mounted reverb units and for bottom mounted reverb units. I purchase a 1968 Super Reverb two-spring reverb unit (yet to arrive) for backup or parts. How do you techs know which reverb is side or bottom mounted, and does it make a difference? What else can you share about 1960s combo amp reverb units?

Thanks again for any and all input and opinions and related subject matter
Toppscore


Last edited by Toppscore; March 10th, 2012 at 03:13 PM.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 08:47 AM   #2 (permalink)
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great questions!! can't wait to read some of the answers...
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Old March 10th, 2012, 10:52 AM   #3 (permalink)
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1. The same footswitch will work on them all. 2 button with 2 RCA jacks is correct.
One button wouldn't work. I don't know if it might work either reverb or tremolo, but it for sure wouldn't work both.

2.I don't know if Twin and Dual Showman use the same trannys and choke, but the board components are the same on most Blackface amps. Filter caps are different on each model, not sure if they are different on these 2.

3. I have no experience with Bandmasters vs. Super Reverbs. They look very similar in size and I'm sure at least most of the board components are the same.
4. Don't know off hand.
5. Don't know, I've only had bottom mounted.

Make sure all the amps you are getting have had cap jobs and 3 prong plugs installed.
Enjoy them.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Bandmaster uses a 4 ohm OT, Super has a 2 ohm.

"TFL" stands for TOO FRICKEN' LOUD!!! A Dual Showman is a Twin. Fender got good mileage outta the Twin chassis. The whole Twin family is Vibrosonic, Showman, Twin, Quad, Super Six.

They all use the same '60s two button footswtich with RCA connectors.

There is nothing to prevent you from wiring the 16 ohm Celestions in a Marshall 4x12" and using it with your Showman or your Bandmaster.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 02:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by telex76 View Post
The same footswitch will work on them all. 2 button with 2 RCA jacks is correct. One button wouldn't work. I don't know if it might work either reverb or tremolo, but it for sure wouldn't work both.
Thanks for the answer. I just received another email from a high profile seller of Fender parts telling me the one-button is the answer. I have the 1964 Super Reverb coming in with the original BLACK Two-Button "VIB/REV" switch. I got a picture to boot. If all four amps use the same two-button with two-RCA plugs. then we are in goooooooooood shape - hahaha.
Thanks again. Toppscore
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Old March 10th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Toppscore asked for my thoguhts on Bandmaster REverbs and Dual Showman REverbs. Here are my thoughts on these 6L6 FEnders and their differences along with similarities. OT's and rectiifcation...outside of power tubes...are the differences, imho.

Dual Showman REverbs and Bandmaster reverbs....great amps...identical preamps and phase inverters.
The Bandmaster reverb is tube rectifed while the Dual Showman is solid state rectification like the TWin Reverb. Those are the major differences outside of the number of power tubes and the output tranformers.
The output transformer in the Bandmaster Rev. is a 'small' OT. The small OT will saturate earlier than say the OT from a Bassman, Super Reverb, TR or the Dual Showman amps. This causes/allows the Bandmaster...along with the other BF/SF 6L6 Fenders that use 'small' OT's ---Pro, Pro Rev, Vibrolux Rev, Vibroverb....to 'sing' a bit more readily than the amps with the big iron.
So, a Dual Showman REv is simply a TR with a separate cab. The Bandmaster is like a Pro Reverb with a separate cab. All of these amps have the same basic sonic qualities until they are pushed. When pushed, the Bandmaster Rev and the other small OT amps take on another aspect than the bigger amps can't duplicate---at least at any kind of 'club venue' volume level, ime.

ADdition: This difference in OT's is why in the past many players would sub the OT from a BAssman into say a Bandmaster and get a punchier and slightly more powerful amp. Ceasr Diaz did this kind of mod to SRV's Vibroverbs and SR's, IIRC.
In today's world where guitar players are drawn to less powerful amps, the smaller OT's may actually be what one is looking for in a 2 X 6L6 Fender.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 02:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telex76 View Post
I don't know if Twin and Dual Showman use the same trannys and choke, but the board components are the same on most Blackface amps. Filter caps are different on each model, not sure if they are different on these.
Thanks, maybe other forum members will know.
Since the Twin Reverbs and Dual Showman Reverbs are kissin' cousins, their similarities should be great.
Isn't there a transformer for the Reverb Tanks, also? I'm guessing all four amps will have threee transformers:
Power Transformer * Output Transformer * Reverb Transformer * and one choke. It that right?

Good to know about the dog-house large filter caps and Blackface amp's board components.
Let's see, the 1968 Bandmaster Reverb amp is 40w and the 1964 Super Reverb amp is 40w
The Twin Reverbs are usually 85w and the 1968 Dual Showman Reverb is 100w.
Thanks again. Toppscore
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Old March 10th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Bandmaster uses a 4 ohm OT, Super has a 2 ohm.
"TFL" stands for TOO FRICKEN' LOUD!!!
A Dual Showman is a Twin. Fender got good mileage outta the Twin chassis.
The whole Twin family is Vibrosonic, Showman, Twin, Quad, Super Six.
They all use the same 1960s two-button footswtich with RCA connectors.
Thank you, MuchXS! Great facts to know.
I am keeping notes. I am very appreciative of this TDPRI Forum.
It helps to save time from searching and guessing. Thanks again. Toppscore
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Old March 10th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
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IIRC, the BFSR is a 45 watt amp, with the big iron OT making the difference. The 'small OT' 2 X 6L6 FEnders are 40 watt amps. The BF BAssman with a solid state rectifier and big iron OT was rated at 50 watts, IIRC. The TR and the Showman/Dual Showman amps should be equal output, I think....85 watts in the beginning of the BF era and increasing to 100-watts a few years later.....maybe in the early '70's??? The TR and the Dual Showman amps use the same transformers. The Showman---single speaker 8 ohm OT..uses a different model of OT with the same output as the 4 ohm Dual Showman.
IN 1977, everything changed with the ultralinear circuits....the big amps went to 135 watts and the 2 x 6L6 amps went to 70 watts.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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IIRC, the BFSR is a 45 watt amp, with the big iron OT making the difference. The 'small OT' 2 X 6L6 FEnders are 40 watt amps. The BF BAssman with a solid state rectifier and big iron OT was rated at 50 watts, IIRC. The TR and the Showman/Dual Showman amps should be equal output, I think....85 watts in the beginning of the BF era and increasing to 100-watts a few years later.....maybe in the early '70's??? The TR and the Dual Showman amps use the same transformers. The Showman---single speaker 8 ohm OT..uses a different model of OT with the same output as the 4 ohm Dual Showman. IN 1977, everything changed with the ultralinear circuits....the big amps went to 135 watts and the 2 x 6L6 amps went to 70 watts.

Thank you, Wally. I am going to draw a chart to decipher the comparisons. Toppscore
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