Solid State and Digital Technology Progression

[Justinvs]

I think what everybody is overlooking is that if modelling amps were around back in the mid 60's most of the young guns we now call guitar gods would most likely have been jamming their hearts out on them. Remember, Fuzztones and Crybaby's and cranked Marshalls were pretty radical departures from the tones available just a few years before.

[musicmatty]

[QUOTE=Justinvs;3946694]I think what everybody is overlooking is that if modelling amps were around back in the mid 60's most of the young guns we now call guitar gods would most likely have been jamming their hearts out on them. Remember, Fuzztones and Crybaby's and cranked Marshalls were pretty radical departures from the tones available just a few years before.[/QUOTE]


Good point

[StephaninMelb]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh those were the days before air guitar too....

[gwjensen]

Great article, Coolblueglow. While I see great potential in digital technology, its important in my view to keep the old alive. As you correctly point out, tube amps, and some SS amps, for that matter, have a certain je ne sais quoi that make playing through them a more intimate experience that I haven't felt with digital modelers. When I first started playing about six years ago, I started with modeling amps, which I still have and play occasionally, but there is a certain "distance" in the tone that is less satisfying than my simple circuit 5-watt tubers. In addition, there also endless tweaking amoung dozens of different pre-sets that that distracts from the actual task at hand. A good sounding tube or SS amp and a few pedals is all you need, I think.

[jipp]

what i find the most interesting thing about this post, how it shows human behavior dose not change. im only 37 but have tried a lot of hobbies.. some iv stuck with some not so much.. for whatever reason.. and im also at the age of watching computers/technology enter all of these hobbies in one form or another.. and what i haev notice.. you have the purist that anything that is not like what he grew up with, is nothing but garbage period. they are getting older and there point of view will become much much less. then you have the guys who start out with the latest and greatest and then want to feel what then old timers he keeps hearing or reading about. then all of sudden he is a convert and preaching.. then you have the open minded guys who dig it all.. and then you have those who do not care one way or another and just laugh at it all. no matter what camp you are in.. its all good. im just glad im alive now when i can still enjoy both.. ill never know what its like to drive a 32 ford.. bucket t you bet. tube amp, well some of the cost a lot but there are some now on the market i can afford and from what im reading they are of decent quality and in some cases maybe even better than before ( 60s )? hope you all had a great day.. im chill in here munching on some cheese and crackers.. rock on
chris.

[gwjensen]

Originally Posted by jipp

what i find the most interesting thing about this post, how it shows human behavior dose not change. im only 37 but have tried a lot of hobbies.. some iv stuck with some not so much.. for whatever reason.. and im also at the age of watching computers/technology enter all of these hobbies in one form or another.. and what i haev notice.. you have the purist that anything that is not like what he grew up with, is nothing but garbage period. they are getting older and there point of view will become much much less. then you have the guys who start out with the latest and greatest and then want to feel what then old timers he keeps hearing or reading about. then all of sudden he is a convert and preaching.. then you have the open minded guys who dig it all.. and then you have those who do not care one way or another and just laugh at it all. no matter what camp you are in.. its all good. im just glad im alive now when i can still enjoy both.. ill never know what its like to drive a 32 ford.. bucket t you bet. tube amp, well some of the cost a lot but there are some now on the market i can afford and from what im reading they are of decent quality and in some cases maybe even better than before ( 60s )? hope you all had a great day.. im chill in here munching on some cheese and crackers.. rock on
chris.

True comments; the purists, the moderns and everyone in between. I have no problem with tech advances as long they contribute to the music, and don't interfere with a player's development. From my perspective, too many options can be an impediment, confusing and distracting the musician from what he really should be doing - playing and learning.

Say you have an amp with a thousand different tones, and we're not far from that, if not there already, how do you choose? How much time do you spend going through them until you whittle them down to your ten favorite, only to start again in a futile quest that you'll never complete? How much time are you spending in this quest that doesn't contribute to your musicianship? Now, if you get pleasure from this endeavor and it enriches your life, then by all means pursue it, but I would submit that a quest to develop one's skills free from gear distractions would be ultimately more satisfying, and thats the beauty of a simple tube amp; Tactile, pure, immediate and sensitive. You have no choice but to focus on technique.

I'm not a Jack White fan, but he's an skillful guitarist, and I read that he purposefully limits his gear choices, often playing cheap guitars because it challenges him, and the limitations force him to focus on technique and creativity. There's something to be said for that approach. This attitude, which I share to a degree, or at least aspire to, is not necessarily a repudiation or condemnation of technology, but an acknowledgement that the focus has to be on the playing, and not the gear, which can be overwhelming.

I'm in no position to judge the technophiles, being a chronic pedal collector myself, but in defense of the "purists", maybe they've been through the tone quest and come to the realization that simplicity in quality gear and focus on technique gets you the most mileage. I just hope I can live up to my own words and keep my gear lust at bay!

[jipp]

i saw a show on that guy you speak of. yeah, he def liked cheap guitars hat wont stay in tune. he is hard on them stepping on them etc. he really digs them fiberglass body guitars from the 60s. i total understand you can have to much.. im just learning my self.. i do have a line 6 amp.. but i keep using this micro cube on one setting i really like while i do my finger exercises. heh. im the type who likes to keep things simple thats for sure.
i plan on geting a simple 5wat tube amp to replace the microcube. and i would like to mess around with pedals.. but i think you can only spend so much time on a pedal compared to the line six i could spend forever trying all the tones, and making my own. so, yeah the line six collects dust.. and this 100.00 red roland micro cube gets used, now just gonna take me a few years to learn. which is cool as im a crippled now so i have all the time in the world. problem really comes down on howi m feeling that day. some days icant even get out of bed because of pain.. life marches on.
chris.

[Tele-phone man]

I haven't tried a modeling amp or multi-effect since the POD XT. I gave it a very simple test: I set it up for the best clean tone I could coax from it, running into the effects return of a Yamaha G100112III. I then A/B'd it with just running the guitar into the amp straight. Back and forth, over and over. The POD simply could not provide a decent clean tone compared to the straight amp. It just sounded WRONG. Dynamics were unnatural, that instantaneous touch was gone, etc. Now, we're not talking about an amp that sets the gold standard in tone. Loud, clean, warm, reliable and serviceable, yes, but not quite transcendent. Until a modeling amp can at least do that for me, I have to stick with analog setups.

I will make a point of test driving the new POD HD products, and a Fender Mustang, too, because I can see a real use for a versatile, high-quality modeler that will allow me to go direct, and/or use a powered full-range monitor onstage instead of a traditional guitar amp. I would definitely like to avoid the beaminess of regular amps. I just haven't yet heard the modeler that makes me want to buy it.

[CoolBlueGlow]

How nice that all my silly radical pontificating on tubes and tone and not ONE person flamed me. Good comments and discussion and even disagreement...but very civil. Thanks all! I love the civility on this forum. Its inspiring.

Just for the record, lest you think I am stuck as some kind of "traditionalist", the fact is that I use all kinds of really new technology in the studio every day - for a living. I may have cut my teeth on 2" 16 track in the 70's, but I've historically been an early adopter of many technologies. I bought a first generation drumulator and used it for live performances and studio work back in 1982. In '84 I saw the one-shot Mac commercial on the Olympics and went right out and smacked down five grand for a Mac and a modem (ooohhh - a modem!) I was online by 1985, o.k? I regularly performed using a midi guitar in the late 80's. My first version of Opcode sequencer was a beta - bought when it first hit the market. I was doing audio sweeting for video with a hardware/software interlock on my 24 track MCI with my Mac, and a 1" videotape machine...in 1987. I was using Sound Designer before most folks, too. Heck, I even got on ProTools early, way back in 1992! As a working professional, I've literally gone through EVERY SINGLE VERSION of ProTools since v1.01. That's five generations of hardware and ten generations of software...so I'm all for technological advancement.

My comments about tone and tubes were not because of a fear of new technology or some blind devotion to tube technology. They were based on actual experience watching nearly an entire generation lose touch with the key organic aspects of tone. I mean those aspects achieved via a Tele and a Twin Reverb. I lived and performed through that era of the 70's and 80's when tubes were out and polyester was in...and it was rough on the soul and the ears. Trust me on this.

So, I'm all in for continuous improvements in player and equipment alike. I just don't want guys to miss the fundamental education one gets by getting their sound stripped down to the essence. There's still no pushbutton shortcut to success.

But I do confess that I own a Pod XT and a pedal board. Sometimes I break it out at night and shred with headphones on, when my wife is sleeping. :-)



Cheers to all

CBG

[Jazzerstang]

I have mostly hand wired tube amps from the 60s and 70s, but I always remember the tones and feelings I had as a youth playing a Peavey Rage and Vox Pathfinder 15r- cranking them in my bedroom at my mother's house with my 70s aria les paul copy. Magical.

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by CoolBlueGlow

How nice that all my silly radical pontificating on tubes and tone and not ONE person flamed me. Good comments and discussion and even disagreement...but very civil. Thanks all! I love the civility on this forum. Its inspiring.

Snip - Just for the record.... ....here's still no pushbutton shortcut to success.

But I do confess that I own a Pod XT and a pedal board. Sometimes I break it out at night and shred with headphones on, when my wife is sleeping. :-)

Because you have certain experiences and views are, IMO, no reason to fear retribution!! Period.

No one is actually saying tubes suck! At least, I've not read that anywhere. What some of us are saying, is that SS does not get a good press, because of people not giving modern designs a fair trial. Many here claim that SS sucks, but quite a few of those are working on opinions formed by auditioning amps designed twenty or more years ago.

What I am saying is that, as a designer, I have no use for tubes/valves any more and I will not be going back to them. I'm completely happy with the sounds I get from my amps. Although, I confess I might not be so happy if I had to use some of those from the big name makers.

Some will be thinking, but none have had the courage to say, that I must have defective hearing! Lol. But I would reply, well you've just not heard what I have in SS amplification.

Because so many have an automatic distain (prejudice?) for any SS amplifier, the big makers have not in the past invested so heavilly in their design. But that's all changing now. Many players here have 'come out' and admitted their acceptance. Why? Because it ain't that bad really... in fact it is pretty good now. And will get better. However, most of what SS is available is aimed at young outright 'rock' music players and, resultantly, hardly any of these big name SS amps will ever satisfy the traditional tone lovers here on TDPRI. For the same reasons, I can't see many tone 'traditionalists' ever using a tube Marshall amp. They just ain't designed for the typical TDRPI player, unless they're into rock tones too!

In the begining, there were very bad valve amps... they developed into what we all now know as the classic amps. But they were not born that way, they developed into that iconic status. Then along came very bad SS amps and they are developing still, and some will become classic. The latest technology is modelling amps. Well guess what... they still have a long way to go, but will get there in the end.

What I find so silly about all this is the way some people will not even plug into an amp if they know it's SS. I've experienced this sooooooo many times at exhibitions all over the world. Prejudice and a fear of being caught out liking something they think they're not supposed to. I remember a dealer telling me about a customer who was convinced a SS amp was tube and threatened the dealer with violence for insulting his intelligence, after the dealer told him it was SS!

I have had guys tell me that they love my guitar sound... spent years looking for that tone and enquired what tubes are in my amp. When I tell them there are none... they freeze, give me a blank look of 'is this guy taking the mick?'... and then the ten seconds of silence. After which I can guarantee they'll reply. "Well, I knew there was something not quite right!"

Every time a new technology arrives, it'll have it's heavy critics who will not change their opinions for any money. Those never give anything a fair chance. But take on board this... there are only a certain number of potential customers for gear at any one time; and each new technology that comes along will divide the available market for the older technologies into smaller chunks... inescapable fact! Even now, the boutique toob amp makers are not earning a decent living... and never will! There simply ain't enough customers for their wares. The time will eventuially come when some older technologies will have to be buried simply because it is not commercially viable any more. And, maybe, legislation will kill it off before that time arrives... who knows.

For the customer, it's all just one big expanding melting pot... until today's future arrives! Then there will be tomorrows future to look forward to... and many more futures after that... ad infinitem!!

[frenchi-farina]

What are we talking about?
The vast majority of the guitar sounds we hear on modern recordings is done with a software! It's a guitar straight into a good soundcard with good plugins.
Modern studios simply can't afford different amps, or engineers spending time to find a sweet spot an a speaker...
Even my cheap Behringer V-amp gives me a decent enough impression of a roaring amp in a room through my cheap headphones!
The technology is already here, guys...

[AJBaker]

Exactly. SS amps aimed at beginners and metal heads, and made as cheaply as possible aren't going to appeal to someone used to good tone. If however you put some thought and effort into it, SS can sound fine, or even great! I'm a fan of tech 21, their amps are solid and made in USA. The character pedals sound even better than their amps too!

[ballynally2]

There are lots of SS amps and modelling amps that emulate a valve amp sound. It's up to everyone's ear to decide. One question: does almost endless versatility enhance your enjoyment? A friend of mine tried an amp modeller and hooked it up to a monitor. Didn't get the valve sound he wanted.For months he was struggling to get a good sound. I told him he still needed a good speaker and cab to get there, so that's another 150 euro. I then asked him: why not just get a good valve amp? He bought a Fender Blues Junior and now he's happy as larry. He was very happy that he could just stop thinking about possibillities.I borrowed a Line6 guitar modeller that had about 20 different 'guitars' in it. I had to chose which one for each song. Then you might have software based tech amp modelling where you can chose the amp, tweak it to sound just like a...Personally, i like simplicity. You therefore can concentrate more on playing. Henceforth, the right amp for the right gig, one small one big. Please do not give me more choises.
At the moment i'm struggling with getting the right computer/tv/broadband/ provider/setup box/ integrated system/ cable company/package/ all in one. So, STOP GIVING ME OPTIONS.Have mercy, please! All this, of course, shows my age. Young people probably find it all very interesting

[StephaninMelb]

I saw a "double blind" experiment today where 90% of the players couldn't pick between a tube amp and SS.

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by ballynally2

There are lots of SS amps and modelling amps that emulate a valve amp sound. It's up to everyone's ear to decide. One question: does almost endless versatility enhance your enjoyment? A friend of mine tried an amp modeller and hooked it up to a monitor. Didn't get the valve sound he wanted.For months he was struggling to get a good sound. I told him he still needed a good speaker and cab to get there, so that's another 150 euro. I then asked him: why not just get a good valve amp? He bought a Fender Blues Junior and now he's happy as larry. He was very happy that he could just stop thinking about possibillities.I borrowed a Line6 guitar modeller that had about 20 different 'guitars' in it. I had to chose which one for each song. Then you might have software based tech amp modelling where you can chose the amp, tweak it to sound just like a...Personally, i like simplicity. You therefore can concentrate more on playing. Henceforth, the right amp for the right gig, one small one big. Please do not give me more choises.
At the moment i'm struggling with getting the right computer/tv/broadband/ provider/setup box/ integrated system/ cable company/package/ all in one. So, STOP GIVING ME OPTIONS.Have mercy, please! All this, of course, shows my age. Young people probably find it all very interesting

"Simplicity = Popularity = Money in the bank" - Eastman (Kodak) talking about the principal behind the 'Brownie' box camera.

A well designed 'classic' sounding SS amp can fulfill this role admirably for 'most' guitarists. I have such an amp... my RetroTone.

'Most guitarists' is what sustains the manufacturing industry and creates the jobs. So moving with technology is the only safe way to sustain those jobs and the industry's future. Boutique makers contribute nothing to the bigger picture, other than serve to satisfy the very small band of traditionalists; they just about 'exist' on the income they earn.

Hard facts, but if you're a serious industrialist and want to give your family a good quality life style, you have to go with the flow or die!

.

[StephaninMelb]

Look what happened with the film market once digital cameras became status quo.

Early this morning a rubbish truck came by and picked up tube TV sets left by the curb for the yearly Australian "hard rubbish" pickup. It seemed weird hearing these TVs crushed. But for the most part, plasma and LED TVs are so much better that society quickly lost interest in the older more expensive TV technology.

It doesn't take much to work out that the majority of guitar tube amps found the same fate and we are now left with just a few survivors. There is also a trickle of new production used by a few professionals, part-time giggers and hobbyists. It is a very small specialised market that can't afford much development. The bulk of what is purchased are used items and a limited amount of spare part.

[Warm Gums]

On the other hand it's not terribly difficult to turn all the effects off on any type of amp.
I have the basic Fender patch for I rig, it comes with a DR..
Nothing to it to pull that up and turn everything off, but why? It's like when I dial everything off on the little line6 in the studio. The kids just tune out..old is just old to most people and nothing is going to change that, to be tilting at the pure tone windmill is just letting the next generation pass you by.

Yea I know basic is cool...and educational for about 1in15 people...maybe.

Go your average music consumer, tell them about how ditching their digital device is the way to go..for all of these cool reasons, now watch them walk away.

Same with a photographer, film..man ain't nothin like the darkroom..yea right.

Car, hey dude you will only appreciate driving after spending some time in a 65 bug.

Personally I love this stuff, but the average joe with the disposable income could care less.

[Justinvs]

It isn't just young metalheads or beginning shredders that the new SS and modeling technology appeals to, either. Most of us have to view our purchases and equiment on a cost/return ratio, even if, maybe especially if we are just weekend warrior types, players who make a little money at their music but not enough to justify top flight equipment for what we get out of it. This is where SS shines. Why by an amp that only has one tone - irregardless of how good that tone is - when for less money we can get an amp that gives us numerous, almost infinite tonal possibilities?

The thing is, and some of you have already said this, but in a way Tube technology is hampering SS development. Most SS manufacturers are still trying to emulate the classic tube amps without really exploring what computer driven SS amps might in fact be capable of if they didn't have to live in this percieved shadow of what an amp should sound like.

And, just tossing this out there, when is some smart cookie going to invent a touch-screen control panel for an amp? The younger generation is being raised and educated on icons, not knobs. Just saying... <G>

Justin

[Magnawolf]

I honestly don't believe anyone can tell which tone is better, a solid state vs tube amp, purely clean with no breakup. After that, I'm not sure many could tell which tone is better, solid state with OD vs a broken up tube if it was a blind test. I think tube amps rely more on their history and standardization than actually being better than solid states. People want to play instruments and guitars that their idols play(ed), and many idolize bands that play(ed) tube amps.

And I'm not even beginning to talk about how good direct line amp simulators on computers are now. Or even post-production work on tone.