Solid State and Digital Technology Progression

[Warm Gums]

Young successful musicians respect the music and technology of the past. But already, they seem to be mixing modern and old to create new directions and sounds. Eventually, the old technologies might be set asside in favour of creativity, convenience and reliability.

And safety..while modern power conditioning, grounding etc. make "gettting shoocked"
less common than it was in the past, there are still many small venues with less than desirable or over stressed wiring, if nothing else this can damage gear.
Its allready common to get 6 plus hours out of laptop batteries, and even more out of tablets and phones. While at this point you still need to plug such devices in to a PA that is pluged in to the house wiring, it is only a matter of time before small but efficent PAs that can be pre charged are avalable to bar bands, singer songwriters etc. thus ending the "the plug is over there hanging off the wall next to the sink" scenario forever.

[brownshoe]

Originally Posted by Asphalt Cowboy

Won't it be great when the day comes where a single multi-effects pedal and a light weight solid state amp can sound as good as a heavy boutique tube head and a dozen boutique pedals?

How will we know when that day comes?

[Eric71]

Originally Posted by brownshoe

How will we know when that day comes?

Apparently we won't. As I mentioned earlier, I think it's here now.

That doesn't mean the technology is super-easy to use and it doesn't mean people understand the distinction between the sound going out to the audience and the sound of their amp when they're playing guitar, but I do believe it's here right now.

[bontay50]

fender mustang 111, is the bomb!!!

[Doug 54]

late celloist, Pablo Casals, said that a good instrument is for the player, not the audience.
As stated above, the audience ain't gonna hear the diff with 95% of the amps.

An amp is part of the guitar "instrument." If it INSPIRES in what you hear, then by all means use it whether ss, tube, digital or hybrid.


.

[gwjensen]

Will guitar still be THE weapon of choice for music... it nearly died in the nineties with boy/girl bands and has taken a major back seat in youth culture and their music! Will there be enough customers to keep valve production viable. It's all stacking up against valves now. But anyhow, what will happen with guitar as an instrument in time? You can't build a secure industry based on such wildly changing 'fashions.' And music is all about fashion!!

You're scarring me, Stewart. I feel like I need to start hording tube amps and all the parts that go into them. I'm a fool for old technology; carburators, mechanical watches, film cameras, and I still spin vinyl. SS and digital are the wave of the future, but those glowing little bottles have soul!

[Warm Gums]

It's also important to remember that the bulk of tube production is in the fomer Soviet bloc, and China.
Right now their largest concern is growing their economies, but it is only a matter of time before they wearout the gear and realize that they now have a bunch of superfund sites they need to clean up. As there are no sub Saharia tube factories to my knowledge, that could be the end of main stream tube production....

[ricks1950]

Originally Posted by tele12

If we look at a good mid-price tube amp, Hot Rod Deluxe for example, it costs $699 retail, the matching extension cabinet sells for $299. So we are left with $400 amplifier cost. But out of that $400 you still need input jacks, knobs, pots, a chassis, power input wire a switch. So the tube related stuff probably doesn't cost more than $300, which puts you at about $100 for an analog amp of comparable quality and power. That is before you add any modeling in. So the way I see it you are only about $200 cheaper in hardware, and software tweaking and programing to get the emulation right is big bucks.

A Fender tube RI '65 twin reverb sells for $1400. A Fender SS Cyber Twin sells for $1300. A Roland JC120 sells for $1200. The actual amplifier sections are not the big cost drivers here.

If you actually do the math, a 25 watt solid state amp with no compromises quality wise will cost about 25% of what it costs to build a 25 watt tube amp, in parts, boards, power supply, etc. Consider the cost of the power transformer and output transformer alone. Increase the power, increase the cost savings in solid state.

A RI Twin reverb is an 80 watt amp with 2 12" speakers, and commonly sells for $1400 -- retails higher -- a 100 watt Mustang 3 commonly sells for $300, only has one 12" speaker. Add another C note and get a Mustang 4 with 150 watts and 2 12" speakers. My friend's ZT Lunchbox puts out 200 watts and cost him around $200.

You have a point that software can be expensive to develop, but you develop it once and put it on hundreds or thousands of devices.

[musicmatty]

This debate will roar on for a long long time no doubt

What I can testify is this...I own both tube and digital modeling..what is tube for most of us..but Phat warm sounding with some air and lush reverb..right Is it possible to get this with digital effects..I say yes.

Granted..my hearing at age 44, isn't all that after all these years of playing like the rest of us..but I think we can still descern good sound when we hear it

I've made a couple of video demos of the same tune using my Tube amp and my Mustang IV digital modeling amp..both sound Phat and warm to me..and thats what counts onstage or in a jam session..I don't think everybody wants a shrill sound when jamming or playing live..and these modeling amps today, serve up some warm sounds in my experience

Try playing and syncing both videos at the same time..sounds cool

Mustang IV modeling amp



Blues Tweed Deluxe Tube amp


Mustang Modeling amp


Deville 212 Tube amp

[rhythmcaster]

Originally Posted by Asphalt Cowboy
Won't it be great when the day comes where a single multi-effects pedal and a light weight solid state amp can sound as good as a heavy boutique tube head and a dozen boutique pedals?


I'm not too sure we can't do that now with an iPad.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

A few important 'Standard' marketing rules to bare in mind too:

1. Reversed Justification - Customer justifies the cost by "If it's expensive it must be good!"
This is what makes you buy a Mercedes over a Hyundia!

Wow!

If you can't tell that there are real and profound differences between a Mercedes and a Hyundai, then you need to get the Hyundai, and buy stock in Yugo.

[tele12]

Originally Posted by ricks1950

....................

A RI Twin reverb is an 80 watt amp with 2 12" speakers, and commonly sells for $1400 -- retails higher -- a 100 watt Mustang 3 commonly sells for $300, only has one 12" speaker. Add another C note and get a Mustang 4 with 150 watts and 2 12" speakers. My friend's ZT Lunchbox puts out 200 watts and cost him around $200.

..................

Not really a fair comparison because the TRRI is made in USA and the Mustangs and Lunchbox are made in China, most of the cost differences are in labor.

A better comparison would be comparing a SS 150 watt 2x12 Mustang 4 that sells for $499 with a Tube 100 watt 2x12 Peavey Valveking that sells for $649.

I'm not anti-SS, and I think the Lunchbox is the 1st guitar amp that really takes advantage of what SS can be. But what everyone else is doing with SS modeling amps is approaching the design similar to a tube amp and that keeps the cost still fairly close to a tube amp.

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by gwjensen

Will guitar still be THE weapon of choice for music... it nearly died in the nineties with boy/girl bands and has taken a major back seat in youth culture and their music! Will there be enough customers to keep valve production viable. It's all stacking up against valves now. But anyhow, what will happen with guitar as an instrument in time? You can't build a secure industry based on such wildly changing 'fashions.' And music is all about fashion!!

You're scarring me, Stewart. I feel like I need to start hording tube amps and all the parts that go into them. I'm a fool for old technology; carburators, mechanical watches, film cameras, and I still spin vinyl. SS and digital are the wave of the future, but those glowing little bottles have soul!

Soul is something your mind bestows upon them!

You know, incandescent light bulbs (those with fillaments) are now banned throughought Europe! It's illegal to sell them!! So everyone got stocked up with them before the ban!

If that's what you feel you need to do, then go do it with your toooobs!! Whilst they are still around!!

Do yourself a big favour... try something new today. Trying new stuff often increases your chance of finding something really worthwhile. Not trying stuff means... well, the same old, same old!

[gwjensen]

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

Soul is something your mind bestows upon them!
You know, incandescent light bulbs (those with fillaments) are now banned throughought Europe! It's illegal to sell them!! So everyone got stocked up with them before the ban!

If that's what you feel you need to do, then go do it with your toooobs!! Whilst they are still around!!

Do yourself a big favour... try something new today. Trying new stuff often increases your chance of finding something really worthwhile. Not trying stuff means... well, the same old, same old!

Right again, and I'll take your advise. There is a used Roland Cube 30 at the local Guitar center for $149. Maybe I can talk them down a few bucks and pick up an assortment of tubes while I'm at it.

I like new technology, especially in the area of computers, and I see a bright future for digital applications in the guitar world, but I also like to keep the old stuff alive...

[GigsbyBoyUK]

I very much doubt that tubes will be rare for a long time yet. Huge manufacturers are still making tube amps in vast quantities and so demand will continue to drive supply.

[krueger]

Perhaps Bugera should have some credit for flooding the market with cheap tube amps and thereby increasing the market for tubes?

[claudel]

http://www.fractalaudio.com/p-axe-fx...-processor.php


I'm fairly certain that this ship has already sailed...

[CoolBlueGlow]

Not trying to start a pissing contest here but I believe you guys are missing it on the "why tubes are great" thing.

Tubes are great because of how they smell...how they look, how they are finnicky. Tube amps crackle and vibrate and change when they get hot and do all kinds of cool unpredictable things. They're one way the market sorts out the real players with real tone from the wannabees with a modeling amp and a "play like your favorite guitar god" track on their iPod.

They're great because they create an envelope of sonic delight right around the amp. That's where the player lives when he's playing. Tube amps are not supposed to be condom'd off somewhere 40 feet away on a backline, and then repeated through microphones, processors, SS class D power amps, and finally crossovers horns, closed back wedges or ear-condom monitors. They merely endure that circumstance at the hands of the music and entertainment industry.

By original intention, tube amps are MEANT to create sound which is directly absorbed by the ears of the players in the immediate vicinity of said amp. Anything else, however electronically assisted, is something LESS than what is happening right up near the amp. Even the best re-amplified and repeated signal is a copy. It may be a fabulously well done copy, but it will forever be a copy and therefore something other and therefore less than the original tone happening in that five foot ring around that amp.

Now, the above is not what a player clubbing the greatest hits of the 80'-200's necessarily wants or needs...but it is what tube amps do best. I'm not knocking working players. I've done that...plenty. I'm just saying that the very idea of mechanistic repeatability is what dooms modeling amps to wannabee status. You and 30,000 other guys and gals can all sound like patch 4b on your Pod.

Simple tube amps strip away the lipstick on the pig...revealing the essential greatness (or otherwise) of the person plugged into the amp. They MAKE you hear yourself like you are...with just enough sonic honey to tempt you into better playing. They're one trick or maybe two or three trick ponies if you count reverb and tremolo and maybe overdrive. They're not sonic whorehouses replete with 250 of your favorite tonal temptations.

A player who goes and buys 250 different tones at the touch of a button really has no tone at all. He's merely borrowing and therefore plagiarizing 250 other people's work. Modeling amp manufacturers know this. In fact, they've invented a market to all the wannabes who will NEVER become great - just like sneaker sellers sell tens of thousands of shoes "just like those worn by LeBron" to guys who will never play ball. Same essential market force at work there.

Of course, working players doing cover tunes on a cruise ship or in the club need modeling amps...for the same reason that they need boring reliability, light weight, and a warranty. They are repeating (badly or otherwise) the work of others who made decisions about guitar tone long ago in a studio far away. The audience on the cruise ship doesn't want to hear the live player standing in front of them inventing something new and (hopefully) wonderful right before their eyes and ears. Rather, they want to experience a live automaton recreating as best as he can the sound of the listener's favorite piece captured in that studio setting long ago and far away. Live cover bands have brutal work to do, and I applaud them for it...but their need for modeling amps does not eliminate or reduce the intrinsic value of classic simple tube designs. In fact, it validates it - since what they are recreating is so often the sound of a simple tube design (more or less) captured and then copied into the ears of the listeners.

Of COURSE great players can make modeling amps sound great. That's because they can make ANYTHING sound great. Unfortunately, they didn't get great by the use of a modeling amp. They got great by being stripped to the minimum - just them, their notes, and their tone. and that is the point, isn't it? Tube amps expose you. (so do some SS amps).

When simple tube (and SS) amps disappear, then we will loose an essential teaching and developmental tool for up and coming players. We will stop requiring players to listen to themselves alone and in the context of the mix. We'll stop teaching them to think touch, dynamics, tone, attack, and even emotion. That's going to be a sad day, if it arrives.

Further, when modeling amps do become the exclusive market presence, what tone will THEY copy? When the fifth generation of modeling amps hits the market in 2024, what will be it's tonal model and heritage? I can see it now..."The new Pod XX exactly recreates the tones of the original Pod IV!" Really?

Remember folks, we all know and love the creamy sound of psychedelic fuzz because of Clapton and Hendrix through a Marshall, the honk and howl of a tele at 11 because of Townsend's Hiwatts, the shriek and cry of a dozen Chicago harps because of the green bullet and a Champ, and the over the top chime and snarl of SRV because of Vibroverbs, Supers and a TS-9.

Without the original source material for the classic tones, we're not just moving "beyond tubes". We're losing our heritage, emptying the tone well, and training an audience of players to be ignorant of greatness - one modeling amp at a time.

of course, as the forum rules explicitly state this is just MY OPINION.

:-)

[classicplayer]

Who knows? In 2024 the Tefuten may the instrument of choice for Rock and other types of music. No need for amplification then.

[musicmatty]

[I]

Originally Posted by CoolBlueGlow[/I

;3946584]
Of course, working players doing cover tunes on a cruise ship or in the club need modeling amps...for the same reason that they need boring reliability, light weight, and a warranty. They are repeating (badly or otherwise) the work of others who made decisions about guitar tone long ago in a studio far away. The audience on the cruise ship doesn't want to hear the live player standing in front of them inventing something new and (hopefully) wonderful right before their eyes and ears. Rather, they want to experience a live automaton recreating as best as he can the sound of the listener's favorite piece captured in that studio setting long ago and far away. Live cover bands have brutal work to do, and I applaud them for it...but their need for modeling amps does not eliminate or reduce the intrinsic value of classic simple tube designs. In fact, it validates it - since what they are recreating is so often the sound of a simple tube design (more or less) captured and then copied into the ears of the listeners.


Without the original source material for the classic tones, we're not just moving "beyond tubes". We're losing our heritage, emptying the tone well, and training an audience of players to be ignorant of greatness - one modeling amp at a time.

of course, as the forum rules explicitly state this is just MY OPINION.

:-)

Lota truth in your remarks above..I edited it down a bit, as it was real long

As a somewhat new fan of modeling {the Mustang In my case}, and a guitarist in a cover band, I love the easy convience of this amp. The convience is this..all the effects in each and every preset you craft for any tune..This is something you can't do with all the pedals on the floor in front of you for a live gig..at least in a timely manner of having to activate and adjust each pedal for it's parameters

Non the less..the lushness of a real Tube amp, can't be beat in my opinion and should be enjoyed from time to time like a fine Cigar or bottle of Bourbon I crank up my Tubes every couple of nites and use my multi effects Zoom pedal with all the presets that I crafted in that gizmo and then I just play thru my setlist as I would with the Mustang. Hopefully, real Tube amps won't go to pasture like Rock N' roll and real Country music did years ago