Particle board: really that bad?

[eddiewagner]

I friends,
All my good amps are from real wood, fingerjoint and all, beautiful.
But that new fender excelsior is made from particles.
I looked around and even highclass marshalls are made from that stuff. Is it really that bad?
Eddie

[StephaninMelb]

One issue with particle board is that as it ages it gives off formaldehyde gas, which isn't a particularly green thing. But so does plywood. As far as combos 11-ply birch plywood is really the best for construction from a tonal standpoint.

A solid wood combo chassis would have a round and full tone, not project sound well and be less loud & punchy than plywood. Particle board leans towards atonal or slightly dead tonal qualities. So it seems that plywood is the best choice for construction material. Particle board is obviously an attempt to control costs. For some reason it always reminds me of Ikea furniture. I don't know if there is any type of high-tech particle board that would be rugged and stand the test of time.

Amp manufacturers should offer a [Tick] option for people to pay a little more for plywood enclosure upgrade.

[Wattie]

It's a cheap method to provide a structure for keeping the functional parts in their place.

It doesn't hold screws very well, especially when removed and replaced a couple of times, has no tonal advantages (unless being fairly acoustically dead is an advantage) and it is comparatively heavy.

I feel it is a sign that the designer has chosen profit over longevity.

I have one combo amp made of the stuff, and I expect one day it will be a tolex bag of sawdust. It is my most modified amp, my most moved-around amp, and my most disposable because of all of these points. The back keeps falling off because the screws won't hold, no matter what remedy I choose. Soon I will make something else for the guts to sit in, probably when the handle throws the cabinet away in disgust.

I am sure if I leave the remains in the rain it will wash away in a week.

Having said that, I have plenty of furniture made from similar stuff - just that it is designed to stay in one warm dry place for the duration of it's life.

[tacomamc]

I just built a pine plank cabinet for my Vox AC4TV8, and the change is HUGE! I made no mods to the amplifier, tubes, or speaker. The only change was the cabinet, which I made from a repurposed pine television stand. I did leave the back partially open, and expanded the dimensions by about 1" all the way around, which no doubt has contributed to the change in tone. But, this amp sounds simply amazing to me now (it sounded pretty great to me before). It does have less punch, but the sound is rounder. Where it was very directional before, it fills the room (at home) with sound more completely. I dont know how much, or what aspects it affects most, but I believe the pine rather than particle board has had some impact.

[bdgregory]

In guitar amps I think particle board (actually it's MDF - "Medium Density Fiberboard") is used for cost savings. I think the worst thing about its use is the extra weight it adds. Clearly it kills cabinet resonance - and that's not a desirable thing for a guitar cabinet. This damping characteristic (and weight) make it the preferred material for Hi-End "cost no object" audio speaker cabinets though. It's used in constructions of audio speakers that cost tens of thousands of $ a pair - and the manufacturers brag about it. They put a nice hardwood veneer and finish on it and it looks fantastic.

[cband7]

Heavy (in the wrong sense...), prone to water/beer damage, screws will loosen with use.

I used to make big speaker cabs from it and I think that's why they put casters on the monsters! (That and Fender Twins.....I still keep looking for the block of lead that I KNOW is in there somewhere....)


.

[CoolBlueGlow]

MDF is heavy and prone to water damage and swelling. It doesn't hold some fastener types very well, and when it fails, the results can be rather spectacular. (as opposed to plywood, which tends to give and deform rather than shatter along a single stress line like MDF.

On the plus side, it takes nice clean routes, has an extremely low resonant frequency, costs less than plywood, has a smooth surface which takes coverings and veneers very well.

The savvy cabinet designer must decide which characteristics are most desirable and which compromises are most appropriate for his application.

In general, I do not personally think it is an optimum material for GUITAR cabinets. It is a suitable material for fixed installation loudspeakers, racks, subwoofers, etc.

just my 2c

Cheers,

cbg

[6stringelectric]

MDF and Particle Board are two completely different materials.

MDF is the dark brown stuff, which around this forum you will often see used as templates by guitar builders.

It is easily damaged if it gets wet, is rather heavy, but very stable (doesn't tend to warp like plywood will) In the constuction trades it is called "signboard" since it's smooth finish makes it perfect for signs.

Particle Board is a light "wood" color (it's basically made of particles of wood glued together) and is also rather heavy. It is also prone to water damage but not as much as MDF. It is used in a lot of furniture and is the base used beneath formica countertops.

I don't think either is the best choice for an amp cabinet - but if the amp sounds good to you and it's not too heavy to carry around and you don't get it soaking wet I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[uriah1]

What are current fenders using drri, bluesjr..etc?

[Glen W]

Fender used it for speaker baffles on the bf/sf amps.

[popthree]

the excelsior is MDF ? that is the last nail in the coffin for that amp as far as i'm concerned. i had hopes that fender would sell tons of those and the CL market would be flooded a year from now with cheap excelsior's.... for me the most redeeming quality of that amp is the aesthetic... but i did 'assume' it was a plywood cab. very disappointing for me.

[Ringo]

Most amp makers use MDF as it is much cheaper than plywood.
Ditto for furniture, computer desks, kitchen cabinets, though they may put a veneer over the outside of it.
It's heavier than plywood or solid wood.
As mentioned Fender used MDF for the speaker baffles in the BF/SF amps, and FWIW I think the newer MDF is much better material than the old stuff, better glues now.
There are plenty of old amps and speaker cabinets around made out of MDF that have held up just fine, I'm looking at an 80s Peavy Triump as I type this that is made completely out of MDF, no issues.
You don't want to get ANY amp wet, no matter what it is made out of
, pine, plywood etc.


Don't sweat it, just go play the Fender amp and see if you like the way it sounds, that's all that really matters.
In a blind listening test I seriously doubt that most folks could tell the difference.

[elmicko]

Hardwood is better, but I wouldn't let particle board construction turn me off from buying an amp (or cabinet for that matter). But as stated above, you'll need to keep a few things in mind:

1.) It's HEAVY
2.) Be careful to always store it in a dry environment. It won't like high humidity and moisture levels at all.
3.) If you're planning to tinker with your amp and take stuff apart...add things...it's not your best choice because it won't stand up to screws being repeatedly removed.

Basically, it's like everything else. Be honest with yourself on what you expect out of the product and make your decision accordingly.

[3 Chord]

My PV Classic 30 is partical board and it sounds good enough and is durable enough for me.

[bdgregory]

I had a vintage Silvertone 1391 amp I bought off ebay a couple years ago. When it arrived I was shocked to find that the cabinet was made from low density fiberboard. This is like the stuff they use for bulletin boards that you use puch pins in. The baffle made from 3/16" MDF. I immediately assume I would have to build a new cab for it, but once I got the electronics tuned up I played it was was shocked by how good it sounded. Further - due to the LDF and aluminum chassis, it was light as a feather.

At the end of the day what matters is how it sounds and does it suit the purpose.

[popthree]

Originally Posted by bdgregory

I had a vintage Silvertone 1391 amp I bought off ebay a couple years ago. When it arrived I was shocked to find that the cabinet was made from low density fiberboard. This is like the stuff they use for bulletin boards that you use puch pins in. The baffle made from 3/16" MDF. I immediately assume I would have to build a new cab for it, but once I got the electronics tuned up I played it was was shocked by how good it sounded. Further - due to the LDF and aluminum chassis, it was light as a feather.

At the end of the day what matters is how it sounds and does it suit the purpose.

that's part of the charm of those old silvertone's.... and you are right.. they are light ... i'm not in the camp who believes the MDF cabs of the last 20 years will be held in the same esteem 50 years from now... but i've been wrong before

[Commodore 64]

I'm not convinced that it's any worse than any other material. And it's more homogeneous than plywood or hardwood so if it was used in a design to get a certain sound/voicing, you can be reasonably certain that all the cabs sound similar.

[tap4154]

Originally Posted by popthree

the excelsior is MDF ? that is the last nail in the coffin for that amp as far as i'm concerned. i had hopes that fender would sell tons of those and the CL market would be flooded a year from now with cheap excelsior's.... for me the most redeeming quality of that amp is the aesthetic... but i did 'assume' it was a plywood cab. very disappointing for me.

You think it would be at it's low $400 MSRP, perhaps well under $300 street, with a quality ply or solid wood cabinet? There's huge difference on not only price, but ease of manufacture, using MDF. Very east to route, compared to ply. It also won't warp, as long as it's well-sealed.

Furniture-grad ply is expensive stuff, and sure, in a high end amp, it would be preferred, but MDF has it's place, and has many qualities that lend it to use in building amp cabinets. Also true that being atonal, MDF may have some advantages in not creating annoying cabinet vibrations and harmonic buzzing.

Any time you purchase MDF it's straight as an arrow. Every piece in the stack. Not so with ply, especially the lower grade ply.

[JDRNoPro]

Originally Posted by uriah1

What are current fenders using drri, bluesjr..etc?

Not sure about the BJR., but the "Vintage Reissue Series", i.e. PRRI,DRRI,SRRI,TRRI all use Baltic Birch cabs with "particle board" speaker baffles - models like the original Blackface amps did. I think the Bassman uses a pine cab..........again, like the originals.

[celeste]

No it is not really that bad, but it is nothing special. The reason to use it is cost. Non structural manufactured wood products reduce cost through lower initial cost and lower waste. Lots of good sounding sounding amps are made form it, but as price goes up, customers expect more expensive cabs. Its draw backs have been pretty much covered, prone to moisture damage, breaks in overload, does not hold hardware well (but really if you are using wood screws only for structural joints, you are asking for trouble). Like plywood, it adds little or nothing to your tone, and that can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you get your tone.