PCB or PTP/Turrent Board in Boutique Amps?

[Jared Purdy]

In the boutique business, if a builder has the choice between using point to point or turrent board, why would they choose PCB, especially given the largely negative associations with it (regardless if whether those negative associations are groundless or not)? What would the possible incentive be to use PCB in a boutique amp?

[fezz parka]

One of the main selling points in the booteek biz is a hand wired amp. That throws a printed circuit board out the window.

[teleamp]

A well built amp is a well built amp.

[middy]

Because it's cheaper?

[fauxsuper]

Are Rivera amps considered boutique? Where does one draw the line?

Semantics aside, Mesa Boogie might be thought of as the original boutique line, and they've been able to sell amps in the upper price range, without being hand wired.

I think if, as most boutique companies do, you're recreating or doing spin offs of great amps of the past, it's going to be a hard sell for PCB amps that will be competing directly with those made by people who have the actual rights to the names "Fender" "Marshall, or "Vox".

Your proposition has to be that "you still make 'em like they used to do back in the day". You're marketing to a group of people who largely have the beleif set that you need to make 'em the old fashioned way for them to sound good.

I think Kendrick might have made a rather huge blunder in releasing a line of amps with PCB's in them. He'd been one of the most audible critics of PCB construction, so doing this was perceived by many as hypocracy.

There are two main "advantages" to PCB construction, cost and consistancy.

You've also got a chicken/egg proposition in that PCB's are more of a mass production idea that requires either massive capital investment or the ability to order a quantity of boards. I suppose it's not beyond the ability of a small shop to produce PCB's, (espcially with the advent of 3D printers), but I'm not sure if the savings would be enough to offset the marketing disadvange of PCB construction.

[Wally]

Cost of production.... Imo, when an amp builder gets into the PCB thing, they are probably a bit beyond 'boutique' with regard to numbers of amps built....but then, I don't make the rules as to what 'boutique' means.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by fauxsuper

Are Rivera amps considered boutique? Where does one draw the line?

Semantics aside, Mesa Boogie might be thought of as the original boutique line, and they've been able to sell amps in the upper price range, without being hand wired.

I think if, as most boutique companies do, you're recreating or doing spin offs of great amps of the past, it's going to be a hard sell for PCB amps that will be competing directly with those made by people who have the actual rights to the names "Fender" "Marshall, or "Vox".

Your proposition has to be that "you still make 'em like they used to do back in the day". You're marketing to a group of people who largely have the beleif set that you need to make 'em the old fashioned way for them to sound good.

I think Kendrick might have made a rather huge blunder in releasing a line of amps with PCB's in them. He'd been one of the most audible critics of PCB construction, so doing this was perceived by many as hypocracy.

There are two main "advantages" to PCB construction, cost and consistancy.

You've also got a chicken/egg proposition in that PCB's are more of a mass production idea that requires either massive capital investment or the ability to order a quantity of boards. I suppose it's not beyond the ability of a small shop to produce PCB's, (espcially with the advent of 3D printers), but I'm not sure if the savings would be enough to offset the marketing disadvange of PCB construction.

Actually, Mesa boasts that their amps are in fact hand wired. PCB aside, you can hand wire the rest of it.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by Wally

Cost of production.... Imo, when an amp builder gets into the PCB thing, they are probably a bit beyond 'boutique' with regard to numbers of amps built....but then, I don't make the rules as to what 'boutique' means.

Hey Wally, OK, cost of production makes sense for a company like Mesa or Fuchs, or Freyette. What about for a company like Tone King?

[fauxsuper]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

Actually, Mesa boasts that their amps are in fact hand wired. PCB aside, you can hand wire the rest of it.

By that definition, those little Epiphone Valve Jr's have some hand wiring in them as well. But your point is well taken, and Mesa amps don't have a lot of the negative things that we associate with PCB construction.

Mesa amps, (aside from the Mark V) are generally not re-issue amps in most senses of the word. They have their own thing. People who buy them aren't looking for a replica of anything.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by fauxsuper

By that definition, those little Epiphone Valve Jr's have some hand wiring in them as well. But your point is well taken, and Mesa amps don't have a lot of the negative things that we associate with PCB construction.

Mesa amps, (aside from the Mark V) are generally not re-issue amps in most senses of the word. They have their own thing. People who buy them aren't looking for a replica of anything.

True, though I once owned a Lonestar Special and bought it because of the clean channel. It out-did my 75 Fender SFPR in clean. I'd still have it had it not developed repeated electrical problems - a problem prone to the larger companies, I suppose (?). Great amp. I don't blame Mesa, per se, for that, though I digress...

[fauxsuper]

I have a Mesa Studio pre-amp. It makes sounds none of my Fender and Fender derived clones do. I'm really not a Mesa guy and I really didn't have a pre-conceived notion of what to expect, but it's expanded the sounds I can make. I never think of re-creating sounds or making it sound like any other amp. But I bring it out everytiome I'm looking for something different, and I usually manage to find it.

I never really think about the fact that both the pre-amp and the Carvin TS100 I use it with have PCB's inside.

[Jared Purdy]

I appreciate that. However, I'd like to hear a reason as to why a (smaller) boutique builder would go PCB, with all of the negative publicity against PCB.

[Wally]

Mes Boogie....not boutique....haven't been 'boutique' for a long, long time.
Mesa does mount tube sockets, pots and jacks in the chassis...in all of the Boogies I have seen, but that doesn't make them handwired, imo. The FEnder reissues of the vintage blackface amps....PRRI, DRRI, TRRI...are built the same way...PCB with chassis mounted tube sockets. ?Boutique?.....maybe it is in the number produced. That is why when I see a builder start to use PCB's, I expect them to do at least two things....increase production and lower price.
Rivera...not boutique, imho. Very nice amps, though, even though the pots and jacks are PCB-mounted.
Tone King??? They are trying to make some amps available at a 'reasonable' price point in comparison to their totally hand-wired amps. Imo, they are moving out of the 'boutique' classification with that move.
Maybe when an amp builder establishes a production line method of construction with more than one or two sets of hands involved in the process, then that builder is no longer 'boutique'????

[teleamp]

=Jared Purdy;3488221What about for a company like Tone King?

Cost and consistency.

[ac15]

I have a Tone King Meteor. It is a PCB amp. I believe that Mark Bartel probably believes that he can achieve the same quality construction as point-to-point circuits, but achieve greater consistency from amp to amp. There's nothing cheap about the build quality of his amps. He uses all military spec parts and there's nothing mass produced about the circuit boards (or anything else in his amps for that matter). His amps are extremely robust and sound fantastic. It probably comes down to consistency more than anything else.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by fauxsuper

I never really think about the fact that both the pre-amp and the Carvin TS100 I use it with have PCB's inside.

FWIW, you will if you ever go inside to work on it. OF course, except for the
Rivera/Jahns era FEnders, I can't bring to mind a large production hand-wired guitar amp that switches and has reverb??????? When someone builds handwired amps with reverb and overdrive switching, you see some very high-dollar amps....that very few can afford. HEnce, PCB's.....

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

I appreciate that. However, I'd like to hear a reason as to why a (smaller) boutique builder would go PCB, with all of the negative publicity against PCB.

It could be because of cost. It could be because of flexibility.

I know that PCBs have gotten a lot of bad hype, but it's just that; hype. A printed circuit board does not have to be a cheap piece of junk...unless the manufacturer wants it to be. For example, the circuit boards that Bosch used to make for their automotive computers and control modules were gorgeous, (up to the mid to late 90s, I haven't seen later ones). Truly works of industrial art. We joked about hanging some of the smaller ones from the Christmas tree.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by ac15

I have a Tone King Meteor. It is a PCB amp. I believe that Mark Bartel probably believes that he can achieve the same quality construction as point-to-point circuits, but achieve greater consistency from amp to amp. There's nothing cheap about the build quality of his amps. He uses all military spec parts and there's nothing mass produced about the circuit boards (or anything else in his amps for that matter). His amps are extremely robust and sound fantastic. It probably comes down to consistency more than anything else.

I know the Imperial is PCB. Is the Metropolitan also PCB?

[ac15]

Originally Posted by Wally

Tone King??? They are trying to make some amps available at a 'reasonable' price point in comparison to their totally hand-wired amps. Imo, they are moving out of the 'boutique' classification with that move.

All Tone King amps are PCB. There is no such thing as a "more expensive" line of Tone King amps that are hand wired.

[ac15]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

I know the Imperial is PCB. Is the Metropolitan also PCB?

Yes. They all are.