PCB or PTP/Turrent Board in Boutique Amps?

[Unadan]

Originally Posted by jh45gun

Anyway I have taken more than a few PCB amps apart that had either bad solder joints or poor construction and parts. Not saying when they work they do not work good but think about this. How many threads are there here every month that some one is complaining their PCB amp is not working.

Keep in mind the sheer NUMBER of Peaveys, Hot Rod Deluxes, and other mass produced amps that are out there in circulation - if even 1% of them goes bad that is going to be way more than the meager boutique sales that occur in comparison.

I have a Marshall JMP 50 Watt 2x12 combo from about 1980. It has a PCB and I have had this amp all those years with NO service issues. I sometimes think the PCB = needing service right away, or is an accident waiting to happen, is just plain wrong in many instances.

[imsilly]

When I build stuff I usually use a tag-board like the old Vox amps. Out of all the circuit board types I've tried it is by far the best for guitar related applications. Amps and pedals are usually very simple circuits where serviceability and sturdiness are a priority. I would only use a printed circuit board if space was an issue.

I feel as far as ease of use, reliability and aesthetics go tag-boards work best for me. I think manufacturers use printed circuit boards simply because it's cheaper and faster to produces things with. I'm not against it at all, but I figure when you can use something better why not?

The word "boutique" is straight out bull**** by the way. I find most "boutique" stuff neither better built or better sounding then mass produced stuff. There are builders that happen to be better then the regular mass produced stuff, but not everything called "boutique" is actually a premium product as far as I'm concerned.

By the way I've started to use point to point constructions with some added bus wire thrown in to help along. Looks killer if a bit over the top. I've seen some builders use that method to great effect, soon we might even been claiming tags and turrets aren't truly "boutique."

[jh45gun]

Originally Posted by Unadan

Keep in mind the sheer NUMBER of Peaveys, Hot Rod Deluxes, and other mass produced amps that are out there in circulation - if even 1% of them goes bad that is going to be way more than the meager boutique sales that occur in comparison.

I have a Marshall JMP 50 Watt 2x12 combo from about 1980. It has a PCB and I have had this amp all those years with NO service issues. I sometimes think the PCB = needing service right away, or is an accident waiting to happen, is just plain wrong in many instances.

The thing is I see all sorts of threads of folks here with Peaveys that call them built like a tank and bullet proof. I have a Traynor Mono Block built from the 70s too that is PCB but the amps back then were not built like the ones today they still used old school parts and ran wires to the PCB boards. I have never taken the chassis out of my Bandit but I have replaced a pot on a CS 800 and that amp is BUILT to last even if it does have PCB construction. On the other hand I see all sorts of threads of amps like the Hotrod series and others that have board issues and are known for it. As was reported on a current thread about a Deville

The HR series have separate smaller green boards for the tube sockets as they lay at a 90 degree angle from the rest of the amp. These board often get hot to the point that they will burn the traces and or sockets. Causing your tubes to arc,burn,blow a fuse.


Now that is a poor design. I think any modern tube amp that has the tube sockets on a PCB board is a poor design looking for problems. Any Modern tube amp should have the sockets mounted to the chassis not a circuit board. My Opinion which is why I prefer old school vintage tube amps or well made SS amps like PV. To be honest about PV I took apart a PV amp that had a bad circuit board on this one the 4 tubes sockets were on the circuit board and the 4 6l6s over heated the board. Not one of PV's better designs.

[Unadan]

^Agreed. I have a DRRI that has chassis mounted tubes. Yes it still has a couple of PCBs in it but the overall design, at least in my opinion, is well implemented.

[getbent]

j45gun,
Consider this.

1) as a hobbyist you end up with the most total hours on simpler amps and circuits and when you go into territory that is unfamiliar and requires greater skill in soldering, desoldering etc, it is more difficult and results in more mistakes and frustrations.

2) cheap and mass produced are not boutique amps. so, again, it becomes mixing and matching to fit an argument rather than going with the original post. putting wave soldered amps in the same class as a well designed, beautifully executed amp that uses pcb is to miss the initial question entirely and to not make a necessary distinction.

I have met amp techs (I'm thinking of one who works in southern california and is the ONLY Dumble approved repair tech) who works on everything from 'old school' amps to mixing boards to synthesizers. I asked him about this whole thing once and he paused and said, "if you have the skills, the repairs are straightforward regardless of the medium."

[fezz parka]

For reproduction type amps, I think buyers want them to be like the originals. The two PCB amps pictured on this thread (TK, Soldano) look like works of art. I'll bet they're reliable as hell, and sound terrific. Isn't that what we want?

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

For reproduction type amps, I think buyers want them to be like the originals. The two PCB amps pictured on this thread (TK, Soldano) look like works of art. I'll bet they're reliable as hell, and sound terrific. Isn't that what we want?

Yes.

[Jared Purdy]

Below is a copy of the email that I sent to Mark Bartel of Tone King:

Hi Mark,

I believe that we spoke once, maybe five or six months ago. At that point I was in the market for an amp, and I stumbled upon a used Imperial at Capsule Music in Toronto. It was beautifuly made, and sounded great, but was not quite the tone that I was after. I also loved the two tone turquiose and white tolex! You had yet to release the new incarnation of the Metropolitan, and it was specifically the "power scaling" (I know, that you have a different term for it) technology in the Metro that I was interested in. I ended up buying a Swart AST Master combo, as there was no dealer for Tone King in my area. Once again, I find myself considering another amp, and a few of them are tugging at me (Red Plate, Carr and Tone King). Like most musicians, I too have been smitten by hand made amps from boutique builders such as yourself. In fact, I have been so smitten and impressed by the boutique industry that it is unlikely that I will ever buy another new, modern, mass produced amp again.

When I begin the investigation into which amp I want, it is not only the tone and build quality that interest me, but also the materials used, such pine or birch ply, MM transformers, or Heyboer, etc. And, PCB vs PTP or turret board construction always comes under scrutiny. I am sure that you have heard the stories, and probably seen enough evidence of mass produced PCB amps that develop numerous issues. Recenty, I found out that you use PCB in your amps, and knowing the glowing reviews that your amps recieve and the second to none reputation that you have as a builder, I wanted to find out why you choose to use PCB over PTP or turret/tag board construction? So, I started this query by asking the folks over at tdpri.com (the Fender Telecaster forum) as I know there are several accomplished musicians who use your equipment, and give nothing but rave reviews. The question generated a lot of interesting comments, obviouslty many in support of your expertise and experience, and obviously many against PCB in general. It got to the point where I just decided that I would email you and ask, why it is you choose to use PCB in an industry (boutique amp building) that is dominated by PTP, turret or tag board construction? I am not asking this question to be controversial, merely to be educated because the Metro is in the line up of possible contenders. However, of the several amps that I had in the past two years, all of them were PCB, and all of them had problems: Peavey Classic 30, Fender PRRI and Mesa Lonestar Special. The only one that has not had any issues is the Swart, hand wired turret board construction. So, I guess I am a bit PCB shy as a result of my experiences, and also through hearing and reading the negative publicity that PCB gets.

Thank you for your time, and I look foward to your reply.

Regards, Jared Purdy

[Jared Purdy]

I just heard back from someone who obviously works for Mark. Mark is on holidays this week, but I was told that Mark will get the email when he returns.

[ac15]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

I just heard back from someone who obviously works for Mark. Mark is on holidays this week, but I was told that Mark will get the email when he returns.

Your letter to Mark sounds sensible; I'll be curious to hear what he says.

By the way, the guy is top notch for customer service.

[Wally]

getbent wrote: "You consistently bring up non boutique amps and builders as evidence of why pcb is unacceptable to you, fine, but completely beside the point. "

getbent, I don't recall condemning all PCB amps in this thread. In fact, I took care to makes sure that I did not condemn PCB construction entirely.
Do I prefer handwired...yes.
Do I understand the need for PCB....YEs.
Do I acknowledge in this thread that there are very good PCB amps...yes.
Do I admit...like the rest of the world...that there are PCB builds that are pieces of junk...yes.
Have I encountered handwired amps that leave much to be desired...yes.

Please assign your observations accurately. Nowhere in this thread did I say that all PCB-built amps were inherently inferior simply because they are built on PCB. There are advantages to handwired. There are advantages to PCB construction. Both methods can produce great amps, and both methods can result in bad amps.
I will say this. Handwired is superior to PCB in at least two regards. Handwired amps are more accessible for repair, mods, and corrections to a bad design...bad lead dress can be corrected, right? A poorly designed PCB---once again, I am not saying that all PCB's are poorly designed.....cannot be corrected for bad 'lead dress'....and, yes, those traces do constitute lead dress. That is one reason why builders will copyright the PCB design, right?
We have a member here who builds pedals on PCB's, and he has had issues with people copying his protected PCB design. Schematics are one thing while layout and design are something else, especially when dealing with PCB's. A good schemataic poorly executed will not yield good results....no matter the method of construction. A good schematic built well will yield good results no matter the method of construction. There, I said it again.....it is the execution and not the method that matters to me.

[rsi106]

Originally Posted by Unadan

Well said. Additionally I don't see people complaining about the PCBs in their cell phones, iPads, and computers, nor are they clamoring for handwired versions of those devices. Well made electronics and their design does not preclude the use of PCBs.

Right. And what happens when one of those devices stops working? Most of the time you throw it away and buy a new one.

There's no rule that says PCB amps can't sound as good as a turret board amp. However, there's a very large difference when it comes to repairs. A blown trace in a PCB amp requires a time consuming repair job. Possibly costing more than the amp is worth, meaning you buy a new amp. The same problem in a turret board amp is likely to be a 15 minute repair job.

[imsilly]

Originally Posted by getbent

"if you have the skills, the repairs are straightforward regardless of the medium."

That is like saying if you can paint like Michelangelo the fresco of the Sistine chapel are straight forward.

It's far better to rely on your construction method being easy to service then relying on the hacks who might wave a soldering iron at it to be skilled.

Some PCBs are a complete pain to deal with.

[Wally]

imsilly quoted getbent: "Originally Posted by getbent
"if you have the skills, the repairs are straightforward regardless of the medium."

Originally Posted by imsilly

That is like saying if you can paint like Michelangelo the fresco of the Sistine chapel are straight forward.

It's far better to rely on your construction method being easy to service then relying on the hacks who might wave a soldering iron at it to be skilled.

Some PCBs are a complete pain to deal with.

+1 with imsilly.

getbent, 'Repairable' and 'straightforward' are two different terms.....go pull a few PCB boards just to replace one little component and get back to me about straightforward. THe TK pictured above may be a great sounding amp, and I agree that it looks to be a well-built PCB amp. However, as I noted much earlier.....if you have to replace one of those pots that is covered up by the piece of metal...or any component underneath that.....straightforward is not a term I would use to describe the situation in comnparison to a pot or other component that is sitting in plain view in a handwired amp and requires removal of nothing except that component to deal with a problem associated with that one component.
I say this while fully understanding that this TK is well laid out and is much less troublesome than some mass-produced PCB amps.

[jh45gun]

What Wally and Imsilly said. It stands to reason that working on a complicated circuit board is gonna cost more money as it normally takes longer then P to P or turret boards and I have messed with enough Non Amp Circuit boards to know they are a PITA. They are delicate and even when careful soldering can mess up the copper foil traces or they can separate off the board. Not saying they are not necessary for a lot of things but for most amps I consider old school better. And as I said any tube socket that is mounted on a circuit board to me is a poor design I do not care what any one says.

[imsilly]

Originally Posted by jh45gun

They are delicate and even when careful soldering can mess up the copper foil traces or they can separate off the board. Not saying they are not necessary for a lot of things but for most amps I consider old school better.

This is my feeling on the matter. Nearly every piece of equipment I own has at one point or another had to be fiddled with. From my own experience that easiest and most forgiving forms of construction have been the more tradition turrets, eyelets and tag boards.

When amp circuits are simple enough and use large enough components I see little benefit outside the speed and cheapness of construction for using PCB. I don't really subscribe to PCBs sounding worse then more labor intensive methods of construction, but I don't like how PCBs melt, warp, split, loose traces after regular servicing.

It's something you won't notice if you aren't working on your own equipment. I like how I can basically repair anything in a turret, eyelet or tag board amp with off the shelf pieces. It's nice to know you can fix any part of your equipment easily with readily available parts or tools.

[Cliff Schecht]

Hmmm the classic debate. Wally and imsilly are spot on in their assessments. I do repairs on both PCB and turret amps and to be honest, I don't prefer one to the other. I'll take a well built Peavey PCB amp with through-hole plating over an early ratsnest Gibson amp with reverb and tremolo anyday. Anybody that has worked on both will probably agree too because the Peavey stuff is quickly repairable from the component side whereas the Gibson requires a super steady hand and many awkward angles to get inside the ratsnest and hit a solder joint.

PCB's are consistent and repeatable. For mass production this is the only method that makes sense. Consistency in the sound for a large manufacturer is the key. You should be able to try an amp out in the store with your guitar and cord, go home, order that amp and get the exact same sound (ideally). This is where modern manufacturers IMO do succeed. Where they tend to fail is in the quality control department, but I must also gripe about the designs of the PCB's themselves not being practical sometimes. Fender IMO is especially notorious for making sub par PCB's, both in design and implementation (i.e. bad layouts and shoddy construction). If you get a good one then great but I'm never surprised to open up a Fender and find that half of the wave soldered components aren't what I would consider to be well soldered. As an engineer I can tell when a PCB designer has actually worked with amps before; you can tell in the quality of the design and how well thought out the serviceability is. When the designer doesn't know what he's doing, it shows up in many ways. Not understanding the mechanics of the wave soldering process, trace integrity (i.e. if a part has a high probability for failure make the trace BIGGER), lead dress and the layout of the components are all dead giveaways IME. Of course all of this is ignoring the bad circuit practices I see in various amps (not just Fender).

The people who swear off PCB amps tend to be the people who don't understand the difference IME. I can appreciate how careful Wally is in his wording, he never dismisses them completely but warns of the downfalls that many PCB based amps face. Since amp building is a hobby for me all of the amps I own are PTP/turret, but I've played plenty of PCB amps that were killer and many PTP/turret amps that sounded for crap. In the end all of the construction methods are a means to an end and if the designer knows what he's doing, (s)he can make an amp sound good regardless of construction method.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by Cliff Schecht

Hmmm the classic debate. Wally and imsilly are spot on in their assessments. I do repairs on both PCB and turret amps and to be honest, I don't prefer one to the other. I'll take a well built Peavey PCB amp with through-hole plating over an early ratsnest Gibson amp with reverb and tremolo anyday. Anybody that has worked on both will probably agree too because the Peavey stuff is quickly repairable from the component side whereas the Gibson requires a super steady hand and many awkward angles to get inside the ratsnest and hit a solder joint.

PCB's are consistent and repeatable. For mass production this is the only method that makes sense. Consistency in the sound for a large manufacturer is the key. You should be able to try an amp out in the store with your guitar and cord, go home, order that amp and get the exact same sound (ideally). This is where modern manufacturers IMO do succeed. Where they tend to fail is in the quality control department, but I must also gripe about the designs of the PCB's themselves not being practical sometimes. Fender IMO is especially notorious for making sub par PCB's, both in design and implementation (i.e. bad layouts and shoddy construction). If you get a good one then great but I'm never surprised to open up a Fender and find that half of the wave soldered components aren't what I would consider to be well soldered. As an engineer I can tell when a PCB designer has actually worked with amps before; you can tell in the quality of the design and how well thought out the serviceability is. When the designer doesn't know what he's doing, it shows up in many ways. Not understanding the mechanics of the wave soldering process, trace integrity (i.e. if a part has a high probability for failure make the trace BIGGER), lead dress and the layout of the components are all dead giveaways IME. Of course all of this is ignoring the bad circuit practices I see in various amps (not just Fender).

The people who swear off PCB amps tend to be the people who don't understand the difference IME. I can appreciate how careful Wally is in his wording, he never dismisses them completely but warns of the downfalls that many PCB based amps face. Since amp building is a hobby for me all of the amps I own are PTP/turret, but I've played plenty of PCB amps that were killer and many PTP/turret amps that sounded for crap. In the end all of the construction methods are a means to an end and if the designer knows what he's doing, (s)he can make an amp sound good regardless of construction method.

Now that's a sobber reply!

[jh45gun]

I agree with Wally and Imsilly and I never said I swore off them I have a Vox DA 5 and Teal Stripe Bandit and other electronics like pedals and a couple of Mixers ect but If they go down they are gonna cost me more money to get fixed than my MMB or my PA 100 which I can work on my self. A complicated amp with chips and other complex circuits is a different story to work on then a simpler old school designed amp. Put it this way a guy who knows what he is doing with a multi meter can pretty much diagnose and fix an old school amp. The circuits are easy to follow with a schematic and simpler in design. That's pretty hard to do with the modern PCB boards and what is on them.

[Jared Purdy]

I suspect that we will be in for a very informative and interesting reponse from Mark when he gets back from his holidays. He sent me an email stating that he did not have access to a decent computer (and as any of us would also, he would likely want to avoid doing work while in St. Lucia!), but that he had a lot to say regarding my questions. I really look forward to his reply, as I'm sure everyone here does.