PCB or PTP/Turrent Board in Boutique Amps?

[getbent]

The incentive would be improved design and resiliency.

I have a boutique amp (Tone King Imperial) it was made by someone who I consider to be brilliant (Mark Bartel) the amp is the choice of lots of players who are toneful and demanding (like Mark Knopfler.)

This thread is full of tremendous amounts of absolute baloney and ignorance from folks who should know better, but clearly don't.

[fauxsuper]

[QUOTE=Wally;3488580]fauxsuper, you are likely to run into that situation with any PCB amp. Take a look at the TK above....you will see components underneath PCB's.
QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to single out the bassman, I just happened to own one. I was just illustrating the point that for a regularly gigging musician, serviceablity is paramount.

Somehow, I don't see many top hats being regularly gigged with, certainly not by starving musicians who might not be able to afford a tech.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by fauxsuper

That's WAY beyond what I expected. I'd like to see the guy that builds those sock drawer. Guess he's not using PCB's for the cost factor.

Right. So why?

[getbent]

Because he can and he wants to and some guys aren't scared of new methods. I had my tone king imperial checked out by val king and he didn't 'charge extra' or whine about the materials... but, he is a master builder himself and came from the electronics business and is trained and understands how to actually work on something other than the old stuff...

Mark is building for probably a couple of reasons: 1) passion. he loves it. 2) he has ideas about what would be better and wants to try them 3) he has a market which will support his ideas.

[RussBert]

Soldano SLO. "BooTeek" in every sense of the word,

[Wally]

getbent, imho, improved design is not an aim of PCB. There is nothing to say that PCB allows any design improvement over any other method, especially in a one-man operation where lead dress will be diligently repeated time after time as opposed to an assembly line of different workers who might not repeat things as diligently. I would not hold that PCB-mounted tube sockets are an improvement over chassis mounted tube sockets. IME, the opposite is true. The benefits of PCB are cost and ease of construction. The downside...as can be seen from the gut shots...is that there are certain repairs sitautions in that TK that would be more problematic than in a hand-wired amp where one would not have to remove a board to get to the area of work.
AS I noted, there is nothing inherently bad about PCB as far as making good sounds is concerned. There is something bad about badly designed PCB amps. I am sure that the TK does not fit into this category. Otherwise, there would be tonal/sonic/maintenance problems that would preclude the rave reviews that it gets.
Ignorance??? We have no idea at whom your finger points on that one. I haven't read much 'ignorance' in this thread....and I have read my own posts.
IF you are pointing at me, then I suggest you get some bench time pulling apart PCB amps and compare that work to working on hand-wired tagboard, turret board , or true PTP amps and give us some feedback. IN fact, if you have one of the amps that is shown above, replace one of those pots that are obstructed by that construction method or replace some components on the board underneath that piece of metal and feedback to us on that one. (IF you see ignorance, educate us and eliminate the ignorance.) The amp may be worth the work, I admit; but it will be more work for sure than if you were working on an amp with more accessible components. That is my measuring stick on PCB amps...is the amps' sonic result worth the work? There are PCB amps which I feel are worth that work and there are others that I won't pull apart because I sincerely bellieve that they are better off silent. (;^) Riveras are not as well built as this Tone KIng. That said, like the Tone King for sure, Rivera amps are worth working on. I won't name the PCB amps that I will not work on. Ya'll can gain that education on your own.

Jared, what kind of amp are you looking for? IF you are looking for a simpler, more straight-ahead amp, I would suggest buying hand-wired. IF you are looking for complexity, then you are probaly going to be looking for PCB constructed amps.

[RussBert]

A well executed PCB is indeed and improvement. It will lower inherent noise, increase strength/rigidity and provide build consistency from amp to amp.

[Unadan]

Originally Posted by teleamp

A well built amp is a well built amp.

Well said. Additionally I don't see people complaining about the PCBs in their cell phones, iPads, and computers, nor are they clamoring for handwired versions of those devices. Well made electronics and their design does not preclude the use of PCBs.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by Wally

getbent, imho, improved design is not an aim of PCB. There is nothing to say that PCB allows any design improvement over any other method, especially in a one-man operation where lead dress will be diligently repeated time after time as opposed to an assembly line of different workers who might not repeat things as diligently. I would not hold that PCB-mounted tube sockets are an improvement over chassis mounted tube sockets. IME, the opposite is true. The benefits of PCB are cost and ease of construction. The downside...as can be seen from the gut shots...is that there are certain repairs sitautions in that TK that would be more problematic than in a hand-wired amp where one would not have to remove a board to get to the area of work.
AS I noted, there is nothing inherently bad about PCB as far as making good sounds is concerned. There is something bad about badly designed PCB amps. I am sure that the TK does not fit into this category. Otherwise, there would be tonal/sonic/maintenance problems that would preclude the rave reviews that it gets.
Ignorance??? We have no idea at whom your finger points on that one. I haven't read much 'ignorance' in this thread....and I have read my own posts.
IF you are pointing at me, then I suggest you get some bench time pulling apart PCB amps and compare that work to working on hand-wired tagboard, turret board , or true PTP amps and give us some feedback. IN fact, if you have one of the amps that is shown above, replace one of those pots that are obstructed by that construction method or replace some components on the board underneath that piece of metal and feedback to us on that one. (IF you see ignorance, educate us and eliminate the ignorance.) The amp may be worth the work, I admit; but it will be more work for sure than if you were working on an amp with more accessible components. That is my measuring stick on PCB amps...is the amps' sonic result worth the work? There are PCB amps which I feel are worth that work and there are others that I won't pull apart because I sincerely bellieve that they are better off silent. (;^) Riveras are not as well built as this Tone KIng. That said, like the Tone King for sure, Rivera amps are worth working on. I won't name the PCB amps that I will not work on. Ya'll can gain that education on your own.

Jared, what kind of amp are you looking for? IF you are looking for a simpler, more straight-ahead amp, I would suggest buying hand-wired. IF you are looking for complexity, then you are probaly going to be looking for PCB constructed amps.

Decisive words Wally, thanks. I like decisiveness (it takes me a long time to get there). I'm not against the TK, but, perhaps, unwittingly, I am a luddite! I have heard rave reviews on the TK Metro : it's Mark's "power scalling" - I know that is not what it is as that is a propitiery term - none the less, that is what I am really attracted to, as well as his incorporation of Gain/Master. Low volume, low wattage, full sound, clean or OD, wow, that is what I want. I hear that the Red Plate amps also do that. That was my original question, not to cast shadows on one builder or another.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by teleamp

A well built amp is a well built amp.

Undoubtably, a truer statement could not be made.

[getbent]

Wally, I think this is similar to the discussion design engineers have with lan techs. The lan techs have valuable field experience but usually not the background in materials nor are they privy to the design goals of the folks designing the device.

It has to do with perspective. If I take my car to get the tires changed and aligned, while I will patiently listen to the tech tell me that x,y,z tire, car, suspension combo is difficult for him to deal with, I don't actually care.

If I have a high end car, lots of things will have a cost associated with that car that will also have a cost (like taking it to a competent repair person who can 'fix anything'.)

You consistently bring up non boutique amps and builders as evidence of why pcb is unacceptable to you, fine, but completely beside the point.

There are advantages and reasons for builders like Bartel to use the materials he chooses. They are probably thoughtful and with regard to making a better amp and a design that meets his vision for how things should be made.

If you can't imagine why someone would do something then: A) Maybe it shouldn't be done, but before offering that argument how about if you log a few hours (your idea) with a tone king in your actual hands before you conclude and/or B) Be part of the 'listening group' where Jared might contact Mark and ask him... or better, if there is high interest AND an open mind, you could ask him too....

The world gets pretty small if we assume we know the answer when things don't make sense.

[fauxsuper]

Originally Posted by Unadan

Well said. Additionally I don't see people complaining about the PCBs in their cell phones, iPads, and computers, nor are they clamoring for handwired versions of those devices. Well made electronics and their design does not preclude the use of PCBs.

I can see it all now, boutique hand wired audiphile cell phones. Now if only there was a market for vintage dial phones. I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. I doubt you'll be finding people restoring and repairing 40 year old I-pads in 2050.

[teleamp]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

Right. So why?

extremely well thoughtout/engineered layout; preamp is on a higher plane than the pi and power tubes.... reverb, pi/power and preamp circuitry is seperated.... lots of shielding inside the chassis....

[fezz parka]

That Soldano is built like a tank.

[Unadan]

Originally Posted by fauxsuper

I can see it all now, boutique hand wired audiphile cell phones. Now if only there was a market for vintage dial phones. I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. I doubt you'll be finding people restoring and repairing 40 year old I-pads in 2050.

Yeah I know it is a stretch. That said you'd think the word "PCB" was associated with the black plague when reading over at TGP. I bet a lot of those complaining about PCBs in amps being inherently wrong have homes full of other electronics that contain them and have no complaints in that dept.

Wait for it: the 5 year anniversary Gold Edition iPad - handwired, point to point electronics, to allow no degradation of video or audio quality and to allow easy end user modification. Limited to 1000 units. MSRP $3,000.00.

[Swee_tone]

nevermind... it matters not.

[Ronsonic]

A very large part of the PTP or PCB decision is simple practicality. You are not going to build a Mesa Boogie on turret board in any reasonable fashion. Anything requiring more than say one relay and a half dozen solid state switching support components just plain needs to go on a PCB to be practical and give a clean layout. There are plenty of examples of that sort of hybrid construction.

There is no reason to not use a PCB on a high quality tube amp, even a simpler one. The old Marshall ST-1 board was brilliant. Less convenient to repair and mod than the previous turret construction but there was nothing wrong with it. Current PCB practice could make it even better. With modern layout and through hole plating you don't need to get under the board to change components neatly. Extremely robust materials are available that take heat better and are resistant to moisture and other contaminants. And as mentioned it is far easier to support more complex circuit designs and added features.

The turret board aesthetic is another thing. There is an inherent beauty to things like vintage HiWatts that you won't find on a PCB. I do prefer to keep tubes off the board unless absolutely necessary. But then I consider a lot of those amps far more complex than they should be.

In either case, quality is in the execution. Planning and care of assembly is the difference between well and poorly made amps. The rest is relatively unimportant.

[jh45gun]

I do not have the bench time Wally does in fact I am just a hobbyist though I have had training years ago with a year degree in Electronics. Anyway I have taken more than a few PCB amps apart that had either bad solder joints or poor construction and parts. Not saying when they work they do not work good but think about this. How many threads are there here every month that some one is complaining their PCB amp is not working. Not saying all PCB amps are bad look at PEAVEY they are built like tanks at least the USA ones are. We will wait to see how well the Chinese ones last. No I am not knocking all Chinese stuff they make good stuff and poor stuff depending on what the company specs are. What I am saying is I would prefer to work any day on a P To P or Turret board amp then a PCB amp. I would bet a lot of folks that work on amps feel the same. My self if I want a vintage amp or a amp that is a vintage amp clone I would prefer old school construction. Sure I have had PCB amps I have a Bandit and a old Traynor that has PCB construction but their construction is also more robust then some of what these new amps are putting out.

[jrfrond]

Every amp I build uses a fiberglass turret board. I've been servicing amplifiers way too long to use anything else. No one can convince me yet, after 30+ years, that PC boards and tube amps mix. Mesa Boogie??? Some of the hardest ***** to service! Vintage 70's Ampegs? Nice amps, but very prone to cracked solder joints.

Call me silly, but I like products that are easy to service. Again, as always, Leo had it right. About the only issue with vintage Fender amps is that the vulcanized fiberboard is hygroscopic, and in some cases, can absorb enough moisture to become conductive (when the moisture combined with other elements in the board). Easy to service is easy to build, and vice versa.

If you are boutique amp builder, turret boards also convey a hardier and more elite image. However, call a spade a spade: they are downright easier to repair when necessary, don't crack easily, and even if they do, the components are connected with wires, no copper foil, plus you never have to worry about foil lifting from the PC board.

Yeah, turret boards and the like all the way.

[vox Phantom]

I've been reading these replys and trying to understand the
the difference beteen the PCB and PTP. I my self like the Tone
King Galaxy and Imperial but now knowing that Mark has been
using a PCB Board I would gut it and send back the board. I'm
in the market for a new Amp and Tone King is one that I'm
looking at. When buying an Amp I would ask the dealer for
the (Schematics) because I have a friend who can read them.
So is the VOX Heritage Collection AC30 the new one with the
Master by pass switch is that Hand Wired or PCB Board
What about Juke Amps or Windfield Amps and I do have the
(Schematics) for the reissue Fender 59 Bassman LTD and the
form the late 50's. This is my own thing I don't like Amps with
PCB in them I like them PTP. I'm not knocking any Amp builder
so my question is this are they using Sub Standard parts when
using a PCB Board in there Amps and are they over priced. What
about Top Hat and 3 Monkeys and Swart I've read some good reviews.