PCB or PTP/Turrent Board in Boutique Amps?

[ac15]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

I know that PCBs have gotten a lot of bad hype, but it's just that; hype. A printed circuit board does not have to be a cheap piece of junk...unless the manufacturer wants it to be. For example, the circuit boards that Bosch used to make for their automotive computers and control modules were gorgeous, (up to the mid to late 90s, I haven't seen later ones). Truly works of industrial art. We joked about hanging some of the smaller ones from the Christmas tree.

Yup, that's how the Tone King amps are - industrial works of art - amazingly built.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by ac15

Yup, that's how the Tone King amps are - industrial works of art - amazingly built.

Thank you. It is my understanding that to have PCB built is a fairly expensive process. So, with the relatively small number of amps that Tone King builds (like Swart, Red Plate, Allen, etc.,), why not use PTP or turret board, especially considering the negative publicity? Like I asked in the original post: what could be the incentive?

[Wally]

Thanks for the correction, guys, on the Tone King construction method. I would love to see some pics of a Tone King board...gut shot if you will. AT those prices, one would expect a thick board with very thick traces. Got pics??

[ac15]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

Thank you. It is my understanding that to have PCB built is a fairly expensive process. So, with the relatively small number of amps that Tone King builds (like Swart, Red Plate, Allen, etc.,), why not use PTP or turret board, especially considering the negative publicity? Like I asked in the original post: what could be the incentive?

I can't answer for Mark Bartel, but my guess is that he doesn't care about that type of "bad publicity," because it's borne of ignorance anyway. He only cares about building the very best amps, and he feels that his method is the way to do it. It's hard to argue with the product he puts out.

[Jared Purdy]

Originally Posted by ac15

I can't answer for Mark Bartel, but my guess is that he doesn't care about that type of "bad publicity," because it's borne of ignorance anyway. He only cares about building the very best amps, and he feels that his method is the way to do it. It's hard to argue with the product he puts out.

I'm asking because I am contemplating either a Red Plate amp (a couple that interest me) or the TK Metro. I think that I will email him, and I'll post the response.

[ac15]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

I'm asking because I am contemplating either a Red Plate amp (a couple that interest me) or the TK Metro. I think that I will email him, and I'll post the response.

That's cool. All I can say is I've never been more impressed with any amp I've owned than I am with the Tone King Meteor. It's tremendous.

One thing I want to add: Each amp is built entirely by Mark Bartel.

[fauxsuper]

Originally Posted by Wally

FWIW, you will if you ever go inside to work on it. OF course, except for the
Rivera/Jahns era FEnders, I can't bring to mind a large production hand-wired guitar amp that switches and has reverb??????? When someone builds handwired amps with reverb and overdrive switching, you see some very high-dollar amps....that very few can afford. HEnce, PCB's.....

Since I don't gig 3 or 4 nights a week, I'm not as concerned with fixing them if they break. When I was a starving musician tending bar for a day job having an amp that wasn't repairable either by me or someone else in a day or so rendered it next to useless to me. Got rid of a Bassman re-issue for just that reason.

Cost and consistency.

I'm a rotten speller, Teleamp. had to look to see if I spelled your name right.

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Originally Posted by fauxsuper

Are Rivera amps considered boutique? Where does one draw the line?

It is a good question you have there.
One that was asked on the Seymour Duncan forums a few years ago.

Some still feel that Mesa Boogie is booteek . . . i do not.
Imho, they are mass produced, so in my eyes they are not boutique (maybe in the 70's, but not any more)

For me, boutique is :

Electric Amp
Matamp
Victoria
Valvetrain
Tungsten
Celtic
Nick Greer
Peters
65 amps
Swart
Evil Robot - Kasha Amps
Verellen
Goodsell
AGL
Reinhart
Fargen
Supro

[teleamp]

looks like a work of art

[fauxsuper]

Originally Posted by teleamp

looks like a work of art

That's WAY beyond what I expected. I'd like to see the guy that builds those sock drawer. Guess he's not using PCB's for the cost factor.

[Wally]

Tahnks for the picture, teleamp. To my eye, that is not a work of art, but it is a really well done PCB amp. IT can't compare to looking at a handwired HiWatt for the days gone by, or a Matchless. I had a Sano built on the EAst Coast that was a work of art....every wire a straight line except for the 90 degree bends...a la HiWatt or Matchless.
SEcond look.....I see at least two tube sockets mounted in the PCB in certain areas, don't I? The power tube sockets may be board-mounted. IT would be interesting to say the least to deal with a problem underneath that board on the top of the pic. This is not a death knell for an amp, obviously; but if this amp were handwired, it would cost maybe twice as much if not more than that. IF all tube sockets were chassis mounted, it would be more expensive than it is right now.
Fauxsuper, there is no reason why your BAssman RI wasn't repairable except for the tech who was doing the work or availability of parts. All of its sockets are chassis mounted. I would rather work on a BAssman RI than almost any Boogie. The Boogies are much more complicated...believe me.

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

One of the main selling points in the booteek biz is a hand wired amp. That throws a printed circuit board out the window.

http://www.pbase.com/image/108434602/large.jpg


This is clean work

[teleamp]

Originally Posted by Wally

SEcond look.....I see at least two tube sockets mounted in the PCB in certain areas, don't I?

[teleamp]

reverb driver and power tube sockets are chassis mounted

[Wally]

SirJack, that is a nice looking amp there....everything solid, everyting accessible, everything repairable.
I have a friend who has been working on amps since he was 7 by his father's side. IF he saw the Tone King, it would be a minimum $100 charge to go into it. The TK must be a great amp from what I have read and heard, but I will testify just by looking at it that one is gonig to spend some time and effort doing some things that would take 2 minutes on an amp like the one Sir Jack pictures. For instance, what if there is a bad connection or bad pot--I know, not likely, right?, but feces occurrum, ime----on one of those pots behind that silver cover?????

I will modify my assessment of the tube mounting in that TK. The power tubes are chassis mounted. IT is the preamp tubes and the rectiifer that are PCB-mounted, right?

[fauxsuper]

Originally Posted by Wally

Fauxsuper, there is no reason why your BAssman RI wasn't repairable except for the tech who was doing the work or availability of parts. All of its sockets are chassis mounted. I would rather work on a BAssman RI than almost any Boogie. The Boogies are much more complicated...believe me.

I had to replace a resitor that I had to remove the board to get to. It was a time consuming pain in the ass.

[Wally]

fauxsuper, you are likely to run into that situation with any PCB amp. Take a look at the TK above....you will see components underneath PCB's.
Teleamp, I am not trying to say anything except....the power tubes are more than likely the only chassis mounted tubes in that amp. That 9-pin tube off by itself appears to be also pcb mounted....as the other 4 9-pins and the rectifier. You can see the connections on the PCb fot that lone 9-pin tube, and you can see the green PCB through the opening of the chassis, right? Not that it matters one bit as long as one doesn't have to go into it for a repair. AS I said, this is what makes this amp as affordable as it is.....adn that still isn't 'cheap', is it?
I am not trying to bad-mouth any amp...just taking note of how this one is built.

[ac15]

Originally Posted by fauxsuper

That's WAY beyond what I expected. I'd like to see the guy that builds those sock drawer. Guess he's not using PCB's for the cost factor.

Looks like a Meteor. Is that what it is? Is it yours?

[teleamp]

Originally Posted by Wally

fauxsuper, you are likely to run into that situation with any PCB amp. Take a look at the TK above....you will see components underneath PCB's.

Wally, I agree.

Originally Posted by Wally

...
Teleamp, I am not trying to say anything except....the power tubes are more than likely the only chassis mounted tubes in that amp. That 9-pin tube off by itself appears to be also pcb mounted....as the other 4 9-pins and the rectifier. You can see the connections on the PCb fot that lone 9-pin tube, and you can see the green PCB through the opening of the chassis, right?

I misstook the rectifier as the reverb driver.

[Jared Purdy]

Some, or all of the tube sockets on a TK are mounted to the PCB. But, there is a caveat: the board is supposedly 1/8" thick, and there is a reinforcement thingy on the PCB ( I know that is a totally untechnical description) that eliminates the possibility of weakening the connection due to heat and or replacement of tubes. But, why? There are lots of complicated amps out there: Two Rock, Red Plate, Carr, and probably a load that I have not mentioned. What gives????