SF vs. BF Deluxe Reverb = Night & Day

[reverbbb]

I was at a local store the other day and they had a new RI Deluxe Reverb and an old silver faced DR side by side. This is the first time I had ever come across this situation.

The SF had horrid tubes and the speakers were all stressed out and flabby. I have encountered several '65 BFDR in similar if not worse condition.

There was no comparison. The new DR-RI won my vote hands down. It was like comparing different brands and models of amps. But both amps were $799. It is a no brainer which one will sell first if compared to each other.

What gets me, is that there is so much hype about the BFDR (originals). Even still, the DR-RI does not turn me on. I have been on stages with several of them lately, and I just don't care for their washed out and muddy sound at all. Every original that I have played (and even the Line6 simulations), sounded like crap to me as a fully versitile amp. They are indeed usable, but the bandwidth of tones seems too limited to me.

No offense intended to DR users. Perhaps you can enlighten me on what you do (or don't do) to stay out of the mushy tone field. I know that the guitar volume is a critical attribute for keeping your tires out of the mud. But what else?

[gls500]

Play a SFDR or original BFDR that's been properly maintained with good tubes and a good speaker, and you'll wonder why the DRRI sounded good at all.

There is so much variation between the old ones that you really just need to play a bunch of them.

[GuitarJonz]

Depreciation is a b@#$%! Try selling that RI in a few months for $799, you'd probably get around $550-600 tops. The SF will almost always hold its value or increase, not so for RI amps. IMO, your comparision was flawed. Of course a SFDR with crappy old tubes and a crud speaker will sound worse than a brand new DR-RI, but when serviced with decent speaker. Over the long run, I'm sure the SFDR would kick butt both sonically and financially.

[Paul G.]

Last Saturday I worked the backline for Kal David in Worcester (Woostah), MA.

I brought him a DRRI and a nothing special rental SG.

He plugged into a tuner, a wah-wah (which he never used) then into the DRRI.

Notwithstanding the fact that Kal is one of the great players, I have to say his tone was perfect, punchy, spanky and smooth. The amp responded to picking by changing character from sparkly to a roar.

So, there's absolutely nothing wrong (tonally at least) with the DRRI. It sound good no matter what, and in the hands of a master can't really be beat.

P.

[dhdfoster]

Let's see what that DRRI sounds like in 30 years if it's still working.

[Jim L]

Not exactly a fair test if the SF DR had old tired tubes and a beat speaker. I got to sit with a local dude who had way too many real bf amps, including a BF DR, and it was simply the sweetest thing I've ever heard.

A properly maintained SF DR is going to sound great, especially if you like the DR RI. Resale will kill you on a reissue, if you buy one new.

I know several folks who, over the past few years, have gone through DR RI amps and had QC and build issues. A good condition SF model is easily maintained by any tech who knows his stuff, and you're not dealing with a circuit board when it comes to tweaking.

But, this all means nothing, really... any decent sounding amp is going to sound better in the right hands. I played with a guy this past weekend who sat in with his Am Std tele through our harp players extra amp, a stock Blues Jr. I've played through that same amp and have never made it sound so good.

Not slamming reissues at all (the '59 Bassman RI is a great amp!), just suggesting that you were comparing two amps in very different conditions.

[reverbbb]

Well, I knew that I would get a rise out of folks that have a passion for these amps.

I will admit, that I have heard some folks play some outstanding tones from their BFDR. There is certainly great tones in there. My beef is that they are too easy to push into mushy territory (for me any ways). I am obviously not a master and coaching the best sounds out of the DR. But I have been known to get some very tasty tones from many other amps.

Back to my point, that indeed the SF was in poor maintainance. It was a 30+ year old amp. Most of the old amps that I have encountered, ARE in poor maintainance, yet somehow the owners are extremely dedicated to them (as if it were they beloved handicap child).

Case in point, my life long friend showed me his beloved '65 BFDR that he got for about $600 a few years back. It was horrid sounding to me. The ground buzz was unbearable, the speaker was flabby, and it had way too much break up that I could never clean up. I just smiled and agreed with his gushing and handed him his guitar back.

Unfair comparison? Perhaps. But they were indeed a random comparison that I had no preconceived notion or influence on the conditions of the two amps. So on the poorly maintainanced SFDR I would need to, replace the speaker, replace the tubes, clean (or replace) the pots, replace the ungrounded power cord, tolerate fabric tears and all the scratches on the SF panel. Then would it sound right? What was the point of a well maintained amp? Certainly not that it was cheaper. I have sunk money into amps several times and still did not get the sonic results that everyone said that I should expect (a.k.a. the money pit syndrome).

Again, I will state that there are good sounds that can come from nearly every type of amp, including the DR. But I can't seem to find 'my sound' on these amps. They just don't fit my playing style I guess. More power to you guys that can make these amps sing. Perhaps one day I will own one that works for me. But I would rather put my interests in a cleaner sounding amp if it were the Fender tone that I was hoping for (of course, that can also equate to LOUDER amp too :? ). I already have a gritty sounding Blues Jr.

[Jim L]

I get where you're coming from... you're more into the clean Fender tone than a DR is likely to give you. I had a 73 Pro Rev for years and it had the most amazing clean Fender tone... again, it needed lots of work... had it blackfaced, a cap job (it had the originals), and speakers. Someone had put in Emis prior to my buying it, and they were shot. I eventually put in some 50w Webers and it brought the amp alive. But, for some I bet, it hardly got dirty at all... you could crank it and it stayed clean.

Big difference between 6v6 and 6L6 power tubes, too... sounds like you're much more of a 6L6 guy. All a matter of taste, of course.

I just held back from unloading my Holland to jump on a DR, and in the end, I'll probably be happy I did. The Holland's a bit too loud for most of the gigs I play, but I do love the 6L6 tone. It's more like a Super than a Pro, but in a 1x12 combo. Folks here are suggesting a Weber MASS atenuator so I can get its cranked tone at lower volumes, but still have an amp with plenty of power for the rare larger room.

[Tim Swartz]

Without new caps and tubes an old one is going to sound..well, old! I have no gushing passion for these amps, but there are a couple reasons to select an old one over a reissue. Resale would certainly be one. I've watched BF and SF Fender combos triple in the last 10 years...with no end in sight. Build quality would be another. A BF/SF amp was built to last a lifetime, a reissue, will only last a lifetime if it never leaves your house. One thing that the new ones have over the old ones is a better speaker (still not the greatest, but better), the BF/SF amps have really lightweight speakers that do mush out when pushed. A speaker upgrade on the old amps is essential IMO.

[trag-o-caster]

Hey Tim! Fancy meeting you here!

It just so happens that I dropped off both of my SFDR's with Tim a couple days ago.

I am pretty nuts about those amps. The difference between the stock speakers, and just about anything else that's respectable that you can name, is like night and day. My 68 came with a Celestion Silver Series 80 watt - not their most popular speaker, but actually pretty nice in the DR. My 77 had it's original CTS (VERY bad). My buddy's 75 had it's original Oxford (equally as bad). I put two different kinds of Webers in mine, and those babies just stood right up and introduced themselves! My buddy's 75 has the aforementioned Celestion Silver 80 in it, and it keeps up with the Webers just fine.

I've never compared an old one to a re-issue, but I've read that they don't sound the same. I have played through exactly three DRRI's since Fender introduced them. I liked one, and absolutely HATED two.

I think it's the nature of the DR to mush out on the low end at high volume. You have to keep the bass down below 2. If you play it lower/cleaner, then bring the bass up. That's why I put a Weber Calif. ceramic in my 68 - to beef up the low end, without turning the bass knob above 2. I've got the 12F150 in the 77, and that works out nicely too. It's just a different flavor. Sounds GREAT with both of 'em running at the same time!

[reverbbb]

Funny that you should show up Trag.

I have often wondered how you were getting that quinessential blues tone on your recordings. If had to make three guesses, I would have eventually guessed a DR.

A saxophone player friend of mine got a real good chuckle once at a blues jam. The host said to him, "I like your style . . . you know when not to play.". My friend was not sure if that was a complement.

To the same token, I believe that you know what not to do while playing in order to stay away from the mud pit. My problem is, I just jump right in the pit and get all nasty until even I can't take it no more.

So, I stand here emotionally naked. It is certainly more my playing style than the amp's fault.

(hmm, Emotionally Naked . . . I think I'll right a song based on that phrase)