Amp miking = Destroying your tone?

[trag-o-caster]

I keep seeing comments along this line, that miking an amp will destroy your tone - WHAAAAATT?????

The only time that I've felt that way was when either:

1. The mic position wasn't correct.

2. The mic channel's EQ was set incorrectly (I try to keep it flat if possible)

3. The monitor EQ is incorrect - usually the monitor sound is NOTHING like the FOH sound.

I've heard complaints about the tone coming from the monitors, but it's only just recently that I've started reading complaints about amp miking in general wrecking your tone.

Any thoughts?

[Pepi]

Originally Posted by trag-o-caster

I keep seeing comments along this line, that miking an amp will destroy your tone - WHAAAAATT?????

The only time that I've felt that way was when either:

1. The mic position wasn't correct.

2. The mic channel's EQ was set incorrectly (I try to keep it flat if possible)

3. The monitor EQ is incorrect - usually the monitor sound is NOTHING like the FOH sound.

I've heard complaints about the tone coming from the monitors, but it's only just recently that I've started reading complaints about amp miking in general wrecking your tone.

Any thoughts?

All my years of playing I always said " You are your soundman" Your soundman can make you sound good or sound total @ss

[Daddy Elmis]

I mic all my amps when playing out, using either an Senn. E609 (preferred mic) or SM57 -- never had a problem, always liked the tone (or rather, the tone at FOH was what was coming out of the amp).

I don't run the guitar through the monitors because my amp serves that purpose -- and generally on stage it's enough for the band to hear (I've yet to encounter anyone, anywhere that says, "gee, can I get some more of YOU in the monitors?").

[Pigsfootpeete]

I keep seeing comments along this line, that miking an amp will destroy your tone - WHAAAAATT?????

I've had "sound men" ruin my tone on several occasions. It makes you wanna choke him (or her). Alot of "sound men"- ALOT- don't have a clue about tone.

[SteveY]

Best sound I've ever had was a 15w amp mic'd through an SM-57 with a decent soundguy at an outdoor concert.

[mkg]

Originally Posted by Daddy Elmis

I mic all my amps when playing out, using either an Senn. E609 (preferred mic) or SM57 -- never had a problem, always liked the tone (or rather, the tone at FOH was what was coming out of the amp).

I don't run the guitar through the monitors because my amp serves that purpose -- and generally on stage it's enough for the band to hear (I've yet to encounter anyone, anywhere that says, "gee, can I get some more of YOU in the monitors?").

Perzackly. I use my amp as a stage monitor and let the mains take it to the audience. That leaves mostly vocals in the monitors, so we get to sing instead of shout.
Another advantage is that we get to keep stage volume pretty close to rehearsal volume...no unpleasant surprises.

[Kewlpack]

See my thread on VOX Caveat - it deals with Line Out/non-mic issues and their Valvetronix series...

Yikes.
~A~

[T-bone Tone]

Originally Posted by Pigsfootpeete

I keep seeing comments along this line, that miking an amp will destroy your tone - WHAAAAATT?????

I've had "sound men" ruin my tone on several occasions. It makes you wanna choke him (or her). Alot of "sound men"- ALOT- don't have a clue about tone.

TELL me about it! The person at the mixer has your sonic fate in their hands, and the standard is generally poor.......unless you happen to be out of the loop. There have been times, I have had to remove my input to the mixer and go purely through my amp. Plenty musicians do that in any case, though.

[dave_esmond]

i don't know if i'd say it destroys the tone....but i do know i always like the sound of the amp in the room better then what comes thru a mic....even really, really good mics in a studio setting.....

a 57 or similar in front is fine...it'll get 80% of the sound of the amp to the pa and in the final mix it can sound pretty good....but given the choice i'd much rather not mic my amp and let it fill the room, granted it has be a certain size room, then to mic it.....

and even with a good mic it's all in the hands of the soundperson.....

to my ears mics never get all of the tone of an amp in a room....it's difference between a pod and a real amp to me...one sounds like a recording, a really good recording maybe...and one sounds like an amp.....and i have no trouble telling the difference.....stick a mic in front of the amp and compare that to a pod and they sound a lot more alike then before.....but neither sounds 100% like the amp to me....and why wound we expect it too?...i suspect most of us aren't listening to our amps with our ears 1" or even 12" from the speaker.....

d

[4mal]

I've had "sound men" ruin my tone on several occasions. It makes you wanna choke him (or her). Alot of "sound men"- ALOT- don't have a clue about tone.

Having gigged as both bassist and sound man, I can tell you that If I had an off night as a bassist, I could lay back a bit and nobody would notice. Bad night as a soundman ... not so easy ... Having tried to be 'pro' at both. I can tell you that there are many, many musicians, guitarists especially, who are no walk in the park. Everybody contributes and the sound guy generally get's no credit ... Granted I've seen sound guys getting drunk and trying to get laid at the board but those guys don't tend to last long.

[mkg]

I suppose it all depends on the quality of the sound crew and their gear. We've been pretty lucky in that regard in that we've used the same crew for a long time, and have access to a couple of good alternates if for some reason the A team is unavailable.
The difference between a good crew and a so-so one is night and day, that's for sure.
We frontload the cost of sound and lights into our contract so that the venue picks up the tab.
Have been at this a long time, and I can't tell you how pleasant it is to just show up and plug in, play the show, and then carry my guitars and gig bag home. Old backs deserve no less.

[Jakedog]

I have never found that mic'ing my amp hurt my tone, as long as the soundman doesn't take "tone" into his own hands. I can think of two instances when a soundman added a TON of high end and effects to my sound. NOT GOOD. If I wanted delay, I'd bring a pedal. I just always tell the soundman politely, to match the sound in the mains with what's coming out of my speakers, no matter what. They usually have no problem doing whatever I ask, as long as I'm nice about it.


Jake

[David Barnett]

Originally Posted by Jakedog

I just always tell the soundman politely, to match the sound in the mains with what's coming out of my speakers, no matter what. They usually have no problem doing whatever I ask, as long as I'm nice about it.

I'm a sound man five nights/week, and that's my job -- to reproduce what the musicians are doing on stage, only louder. I do not editorialize or modify anyone's sound unless I am specifically asked to.

[rmconner80]

Originally Posted by dave_esmond

to my ears mics never get all of the tone of an amp in a room....it's difference between a pod and a real amp to me...one sounds like a recording, a really good recording maybe...and one sounds like an amp.....

Exactly! I think it would be more accurate to say "rooms never get all the tone of the mic".

The problem of 'destroying tone' by micing isn't inherent to the micing itself, it's with the way that guitarists have set up their amps. The guitarist has set his volume and tone to sound good to his ears, which are not directly in front of the speaker.

Yet the mic is.

Close mics capture the true tone - exactly what is coming out of the speaker - NOT what is 12 feet out and 6 feet up, not what is bouncing off the floor, ceiling, walls.

If you stick your ears down in front of that speaker, you'll hear exactly what the mic is capturing (and some of the audience). You won't like the way it sounds.

I think - though I could be wrong - that the soundman would usually do a little EQ compensation when close-micing, to tone down the treble, add a bit of reverb, and get a more natural sound.

In a tracking situation, you don't have to close mic, and you can mess around with mic location.

[mkg]

Not to mention all the ambient sound going on...everything on stage is being picked up to some extent by drum mics and vocal mics.
That's just one of the reasons that a good sound crew is worth its weight in gold.
And from David's post I can tell he's one of the good ones.

[Long_Ghost]

The human ear is able to perceive things in a way no microphone can, not even a good one. I prefer an un-mic'd
sound.

[Maggot]

I think the preference for unmiked tone is attriburable to the not-being-able-to-see-the-the-forest-for-the-trees attitude towards tone that most guitarists (including me) have toward their tone.

I think 1) unless the sound guy is nuts (which has been known to happen), the guitar sounds fuller and less directional coming from the PA, 2) when my tone is really smoking the audience seems bored and annoyed. When my tone's a little thin is when I seem to connect, 3) how do you know how you're sounding to some guy in one of the rear corners of the room? I admit that the best sound is a band playing comparatively quietly in a small room with good acoustics and no unnecessary miking, but how often does that happen?

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by David Barnett

I'm a sound man five nights/week, and that's my job -- to reproduce what the musicians are doing on stage, only louder. I do not editorialize or modify anyone's sound unless I am specifically asked to.

David, you are a good man! So are most of the other guys doing that job. I hope you didn't take offense, I was in no way implying that soundmen are all bad, I've just had the odd experience here and there where I lean out off of the stage, stick my head in front of the speakers, and it's like "HUH?!? Who's that?" The only effects in my entire rig are two Tube Screamers, so imagine my surprise when I lean out during a solo and hear a long delay and a phaser! I don't know what some of these guys are thinking, but I wish a couple of them were more like you.


Jake

[rmconner80]

Originally Posted by Long_Ghost

The human ear is able to perceive things in a way no microphone can, not even a good one. I prefer an un-mic'd
sound.

Hold on here...

This may be true HOWEVER it's a pointless argument unless the sound that the mic is 'perceiving' is being amplified and then heard by a human ear...

So where's the disconnect? The ear's non linearties are still involved in any instance where you are "hearing" the supposed difference.

What you are talking about is the ROOM ambiance vs. close micing, not an inherent fallability of microphones.

The perception of the human ear can be duplicated almost exactly, if not perfectly, using mics. If you create a solid head shaped object, mount two stereo mics designed in reference to the non-linearities of the human ear in the position of the ears, encased in 'ears' designed in reference to the soft and hard anatomy of the region of the temporal bone, and suspend this apparatus at the exact height of your ears where your tonal reference is (i.e. 12 feet or whatever in front of the amp), then you're pretty much there. This has been done (though not with guitar amps I don't think...)

Obviously this is a far cry from direct micing with a 57, which is what needs to happen running into a PA when other instruments (i.e. a band) are involved.

And there are easier ways to accomplish this in a studio (i.e. a little room reverb effects and a little production EQ during mix down).

The point is - there is nothing inherently bad about the microphone when micing an amp - it's the variables associated with loss of ROOM AMBIANCE and close micing.

[Tim Swartz]

Based on what many are stating here it would be impossible to record a decent guitar sound... It is a small jump from SR/PA to recording... Bottom line is the onus falls on the sound man/engineer. If you are concerned with the capability of your guy at the board you'd best strap on a wireless and go back and coach him. I've found that the vast majority of the guys in live venues are more concerned getting a good mix with a decent kick sound with the guitars being an afterthought.