Help me understand: why does a Matchless cost so much compared to....

[Tonemonkey]

OK JP, so your Ire is now directed towards Dumbles, and by that switch away from your OP you appear to indicate that maybe a Matchless et al have qualities that can justify their pricepoint?

I mean, I believe 4k for an amp is alot, others may think 1100 I paid for my used amp is "bonkers", I think its worth it........and THAT is what matters......what people will pay.

[T Prior]

I don't think it is that OTHERS CAN'T make a higher quality design, they opted to make what they make for market reasons. There is only so much room in a HIGH dollar market and to survive you had better be real good !

Matchless, to there credit decided to go all out in every aspect, and they did, and they do...and they make probably one of the finest amps know to us minions out here...

but that being said, they don't expect each of us to run out and buy one, sure they would like it if we did, but the fact of the matter is if there market share increased dramatically they would probably go out of business for not being able to meet the demand ! Every amp buyer on the planet would be complaining about the amount of time it takes to get the $4000 amp !

Great amps though, I tested a small amp, maybe 5 watts and it was awesome. The heaviest 5 watt amp I ever picked up !

[Big_Bend]

My friend has a Matchless Lightning 2x12 w/ Reverb. There is just something about that amp that is magic. I don't know what, but its real. For the slide guitar my friend plays, that Matchless has a tone like none other. No pedals are needed, just pure bliss.

Is it worth 3 times what a nice Twin or Vox amp would cost? Probably not. But it is a very very nice amp that does things no other amp can.

[valiant]

Does Mark Sampson still run "STAR Amplifiers".....

[winny pooh]

Just look at this:



I cannot think of another company insane enough to make new PTP amps, even all the companies that followed Matchless did not go that far.

[Jared Purdy]

Is that a Matchless? One of the reasons that I would be less inclined to buy a Matchless lies in the weight. 70 pounds! But, I may prove myself a hypocrit on of these days and buy one! Having said that, I could see myself checking out the Lightening, but then it is 45Lbs, and costs about $2400 with reverb in a 112 cab. The 3015, at 75Lbs is a deterent in itself, as attractive as it looks on paper.

[Birdmankustomz]

On the PTP topic, this is the guts of my 1938 Webster Chicago model 508. My '88 Peavey is all boards, and I'd take the boards over vintage PTP anyday for ease of repair.

[mr.danny]

getbent wrote: "or people of means, the money part is almost a nuissance... something that is beside the point."

what does that even mean? i'm a man of means by no means (thanks roger).
And I really don't want to hear what those rich amateurs are playing on their house-priced amps.

i guess my point about the tweeds is I've got quite a bit less than $3000 in BOTH of them, I can get the same amount back (likely more) at any time, and you say they're as well spec'd and built as todays boutique amps. I also have several other colorful amps (Magnatone 460, for one), most of which I picked up off CL for next to nothing.

I'm not against the high buck amps, but it makes little sense to me, as I have a wide variety of great tones available to me, and if I were to sell them all to buy a Matchless, I think I'd be musically poorer for it.

[mr.danny]

oh, and AC30's don't need to cost $6000 unless you want one with the hang tag and new amp smell. plenty of good ones between $2000 & $3000 these days.

[Jared Purdy]

+1 on that

[teleamp]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

Is that a Matchless? One of the reasons that I would be less inclined to buy a Matchless lies in the weight. 70 pounds! But, I may prove myself a hypocrit on of these days and buy one! Having said that, I could see myself checking out the Lightening, but then it is 45Lbs, and costs about $2400 with reverb in a 112 cab. The 3015, at 75Lbs is a deterent in itself, as attractive as it looks on paper.

Try the Lightning and the Spitfire, with and without reverb... IMHO, the sound is so musical, reverb is not really needed. They really are great sounding amps. I prefer the Spitfire, it has more clean headroom and is hard to get a bad sound out of it.

[RubyRae]

Originally Posted by Birdmankustomz

On the PTP topic, this is the guts of my 1938 Webster Chicago model 508. My '88 Peavey is all boards, and I'd take the boards over vintage PTP anyday for ease of repair.

Birdman, that is kindove a rare excetion, as most PTP amp's do not look like that inside. Most builders and folks that repair would disagree with you, as PTP is easier to work on in most aspects. The printed circuit board is quite challenging for most, but the beauty is we can all choose what we want. We can all buy whatever amp we like, and can afford. Then there are a few lucky ones who find $40 Princeton Reverbs at a local garage sale.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by mr.danny

getbent wrote: "or people of means, the money part is almost a nuissance... something that is beside the point."

what does that even mean? i'm a man of means by no means (thanks roger).
And I really don't want to hear what those rich amateurs are playing on their house-priced amps.

You kind of answer it for yourself. You are a 'man of means by no means'.

Why would you think that you'd even get to hear 'the rich amateurs'? That isn't your circle, right?

This morning, rich guys who worry more about how fast they can get the amp or who they'll get it from aren't thinking about broke guys who wring their hands over the price of things. The broke guys spend all this effort on a thread about how stupid prices are and how much the rich guys who own this stuff suck (when there are just as many crummy AND poor guitar players, if not more) and how the people who afford this stuff are "fools"...

Those "Fools" put the money in for guys to develop and sell this kind of amp, which does filter down to the budget requirements of the average guy.... and those "Fools" are the guys who actually have good gigs and positions of responsibility where they generate enough income where they can blithely choose among expensive amps, cars and not worrying about paying the bills.

If that stuff makes them "fools", sign me up!

So, yeah, you aren't gonna have to worry about hearing that venture capitalist hammering out tunes because you don't hang with that crowd. On one hand, you can be happy about that, on the other hand, nothing better than when your rich friend gets tired of his Matchless and wants to GIVE it to you!

[mr.danny]

I ain't mad or wringing my hands ~ they're too busy making a living with music.

[T Prior]

I think the whole point of it all is that ...

it is not about each of us individually...nothing really is... Ford people buy Mustangs, Chevy people buy Vette's... and those that want a Mercedes , well they gotta have a better job than me or perhaps have been more frugal with the $$$...it's kinda like a reward...

Those who have been blessed with good fortune get what they desire, and that is exactly what a company like Matchless is aiming it..those that are really on a great musical career track and earning in proportion, they are not building amps for me...
They know I shop at Montgomery Ward ! There is always a top to every market and that is the goal.. all the way to the top....

And yes, I would rather have my dozen or so vintage Fender amps than one Matchless, but that's just me..but that doesn't mean that the MLess amps aren't great, they are ...I just can't see me having one to drag to an open mic or a Sr's Dance. Not the right fit...

[getbent]

Originally Posted by mr.danny

I ain't mad or wringing my hands ~ they're too busy making a living with music.

as it ought to be!

my nephew was on the last warped tour and one of the 'big bands' had a guitar player who took a liking to my nephew and his band and gifted him a bad cat... he digs it immensely (doesn't tour with it though) still using the mondo music man, pedalboard and guitars that his uncle hooked him up with...

when you make it, your tastes may change... after 5 years on the road my nephew is starting to think that earning a little more money might be nice....

do what makes YOU happy. That is pretty much what everyone else is doing.

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by Jared Purdy

Dumble? $40,00O? Oh for God's sake that man has an ego that is so disproportionate from delivery that it boggles the mind. Is he smokin' crack 24/7? How is it that Carlos Santana is able to play Mesa, or any of the other players are able to play what is they play and not pay those obsurd fees? He's a jack ass.

If you have insight into how much Carlos Santana paid for his amps, do tell.

Mesa is famous for not giving an artist discount, so I'm quite confident that Carlos paid the same price as everyone else at the time...for every amp that he bought new.

The used market is a different set of economics that you can't pin on the manufacturer. Gear dorks will pay anything to avoid practicing to sound better.

[Will Chen]

Originally Posted by teleamp

Construction technique! Have you ever seen the insides of any Matchless, they are very labor intense to build. The cabinet, no wood screws as everything that is screwed to the cabinet uses a machine screw into a threaded insert. The chassis, heavy duty stainless steel... did you ever read about the Matchless that fell out of a truck going 60 mph and was rebuildable? The wiring, it is PTP/barrier strip...

So, the question of course is does any of that really matter? I mean, if it costs that much of a premium to "insure" against disaster, why not simply buy 2 of a much more affordable amp? There are many PTP wired amps costing much, much less. I think the biggest aspect of the pricing, is as mentioned supply and demand and the mystic surrounding the amps. They're no where near as rare as a Dumble, but chances are it's the only "boutique" brand which the vast majority of guitar players know by name.

As most of us know, Matchless went out of business and the founders have all moved on, most notably to Bad Cat. But does anyone know who currently owns Matchless?

[Birdmankustomz]

Originally Posted by RubyRae

Birdman, that is kindove a rare excetion, as most PTP amp's do not look like that inside. Most builders and folks that repair would disagree with you, as PTP is easier to work on in most aspects. The printed circuit board is quite challenging for most, but the beauty is we can all choose what we want. We can all buy whatever amp we like, and can afford. Then there are a few lucky ones who find $40 Princeton Reverbs at a local garage sale.

All the amps I've dealt with that are ptp have looked similar to this. On the other hand all the amps I deal with are ancient. I'm not a pro by any means, so all I can speak for is what I've delt with. I really should have said that I'd rather work on my pcb amps than my ptp ones. I agree though, the new ptp amps and the amps that are built to be guitar amps (not old radios etc) are probably easier than new pcbs. Hope that made sense

[teleamp]

Originally Posted by Will Chen

So, the question of course is does any of that really matter? I mean, if it costs that much of a premium to "insure" against disaster, why not simply buy 2 of a much more affordable amp? There are many PTP wired amps costing much, much less. I think the biggest aspect of the pricing, is as mentioned supply and demand and the mystic surrounding the amps. They're no where near as rare as a Dumble, but chances are it's the only "boutique" brand which the vast majority of guitar players know by name.

As most of us know, Matchless went out of business and the founders have all moved on, most notably to Bad Cat. But does anyone know who currently owns Matchless?

Some people like owning quality gear even if there are lower cost alternatives. It's all personal preferences. I for one try to buy new to support the companies I admire. I also try to keep my hard earned bucks in the USA. If someone gave me a Dumble, id sell it, I have no use for that tone.

Supply and demand pricing applies to the used market. If a builder could get amp parts out of a hole in the ground and pay PRC wages, then yes they could raise/lower price as needed to sell. But, last I heard there is a lot of demand for Matchless products as most have to be ordered and the factory keeps a constant backlog.

After the Randall deal fell through, I believe that one of the three founders got the Matchless rights and is running the company.

Bottom line is, if you don't like it or think it cost too much, move on and buy what suits you.

I never worry about what other people have, or why... but there seem to be plenty here that do, what motivates that?

I'm just an old geezer that loves good tone. BTW, I too am a man of no means, but will scrimp and save to get what I want, I have no problem wearing my ragged clothes and driving my 99 Escort down to Austin or Dallas to get gear that I like.