how many NOS tubes are out there?

Matt Plescher · September 21st, 2004, 07:34 PM

What's the supply like for NOS tubes? There's only a finite amount, so where are we in the spectrum of using them up?

Cheers
Matt

e-merlin · September 21st, 2004, 07:48 PM

I don't have an answer about the numbers available, but there is a theory that I like a lot. It goes like this: The majority of the NOS tubes left are the ones cast off as unsuitable for use when they were first on the market years ago. So those tubes many are paying a premium for today were yesterday's junk. As with most expensive ventures of questionable value, those out the money have to hear a difference to justify their epxense.

Don't know if this is true, but it makes sense to me. And with so many good new tubes available, I'm not going to spend huge bucks on what could be questionable tubes.

flying · September 21st, 2004, 08:16 PM

But the counter point to that theory would be..........
The guys who cannot afford the NOS made that theory up...

But jokes aside I was pretty surprised at how good the new jj EL84's sound ! I have them but still prefer the mullards or even the sylvanias
But nobody makes a nice new EZ81 or really even a decent 12ax7 for that matter.

I have never found anything to sound as nice as NOS RCA's in my 73DR
or anything as nice as Mullard EL84's either. (the jj's are good tho ) But then I am not a pro player & play alone so the nice little extras in tone can be heard by me. No drums drowning it out ;)

As of the world supply?? I have to agree with Matt. Like all things they will dry up in supply. I think a lot of it comes from the fact that many shops did tube repair on audio equipment & television for decades. So pockets still turn up from time to time Im sure.

But honestly how many do you need? I have a pretty decent stash now from buying for 10 years here & there when a deal turned up.

TexGoneNW · September 21st, 2004, 11:37 PM

There is not one drunk biker in the audience who can tell the difference between the RCA black plate 6V6's and the (insert name of modern reasonable facsimile here)...

Will V. · September 22nd, 2004, 12:39 AM

While tubes vary widely, old does not mean good, necessarily. I recently had a new Sovtek 5Y3 rectifier that sounded great, but went microphonic. I replaced it with an NOS JAN Philips that would probably never go microphonic, but sounded crappy in my Champ clone. I ended up replacing that with a used, 50 year old CBS 6087.

maxvintage · September 22nd, 2004, 07:24 AM

I tried the JJ 6v6s in my deluxe reverb and honestly, I had a very hard time telling them from the RCA's that were in there before. That ended my NOS fixation as far as power tubes are concerned. I think the old Svetlana (now SED) 6L6s sounded as good as any NOS tubes I tried also. I just tried, and really liked, one of those GT "Mullard reissue" 12ax7s and thought it was exellent, though construction seemed a little shaky

Now I'm using ampeg amps all the time. Many Ampegs used oddball tubes--6kb11, anyone?--and nos is the only way too go. But JJ just came out with a 7591--can't wait to try it. And they are soon to release a new, completely redesigned 12ax7

trag-o-caster · September 22nd, 2004, 08:44 AM

I think where the NOS thing really applies would be with pre amp tubes. I've always had good luck with regular old Sovteks in the output section (and they seem to last longer than JJ's, and Ei's), but I would always seek out whatever really good preamp tubes that I could find - NOS, or otherwise. That's where I really noticed a tonal difference - with the preamp tubes.

Tim Swartz · September 22nd, 2004, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Plescher

What's the supply like for NOS tubes? There's only a finite amount, so where are we in the spectrum of using them up?

Cheers
Matt

Interesting how this thread has digressed into a NOS vs current production rant. It is anyone's guess as to how many warehouses full of NOS tubes are left...as for them all being leftover throwaways, well, I guess that depends on where you source your tubes. It was what, about 10 years ago that the military sold off bzillions of 6L6WGBs, 7581As, 6550As, etc... I was getting those Philips/JAN 6L6WGBs for like $7 each in quantity.... Those tubes are still arround, but the price has gotten steeper as the supply has gone down. The JJ 6V6 and EL84 are really fine tubes that seem to hold their own with NOS... Others IMO fall short of the mark...however, perhaps JJ is raising the bar and hopefully we are heading into an era where new tubes will be superior to NOS, but in the mean time I'm going to use RCA blackplate 6L6s, GEC KT66s, Mullard EL34s and western European preamp tubes because unlike the drunk biker, I can appreciate the difference and am willing to pay for it....I digress

Will V. · September 22nd, 2004, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Swartz

Interesting how this thread has digressed into a NOS vs current production rant. It is anyone's guess as to how many warehouses full of NOS tubes are left.

...I digress

I think the thread digressed so quickly because no one knows how many NOS tubes are left. On thing is for sure, there is a finite and dwindling supply, so we've got to learn to love (or make better) current production tubes, eventually. People with amps that use really hard to find tubes have to learn to conserve the usage of these amps, as current production seems standardized on just a few different tubes. Eventually, these amps may be completely unusable, as-is. Happily, I think current production of the popular tubes will increase, making the (more well-built) mainstream amps live indefinitely. This is just speculation, of course, but I hope it's at least somewhat accurate.

Oskar · September 22nd, 2004, 10:43 AM

Plus, how am I to know that a tube is really NOS? That it hasn't be used, or discarded and recycled as NOS? I'm no tech. and happen to fall into the Cookie camp when it comes to tubes and sound, but is there an easy way I can tell? I would think the supply is quickly going, especially since high-end tube audiophiles are looking for this stuff or their stereos.
I dunno, I wonder sometimes if some of this stuff is overblown. I remember playing in the 60s when everyone had a tube amp. If someone blew out a tube they went down to Louie's TV Repair Shoppe got a replacement (didn't matter what brand, just the cheapest) and stuck it back in. No biasing, no calibrating, no matching. And I never heard of anyone frying an amp as a result, or being accused of lousy sound as a result. Today it seems that the tubes have to be matched (if they are a pair), and the amp biased to the closest specs to get it to sound right. But sound right to whom? Sounds like too much work (and expense) for my tastes.

Big Cookie · September 22nd, 2004, 11:14 AM

If you pull a dozen NOS RCA 6L6's and stick them in an amp the bias is going to be pretty consistent. With more modern tubes the current passing will be all over the board without matching and biasing. The difference is in the skilled workforce that built the old tubes. It is an intricate job that requires experience. I believe a 6L6 has 38 separate internal parts.

flying · September 22nd, 2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxvintage

I tried the JJ 6v6s in my deluxe reverb and honestly, I had a very hard time telling them from the RCA's that were in there before.

Hey that is good news!
Like I said the jj EL84's sounded good to me too.
Thanks

Daddy Elmis · September 27th, 2004, 04:43 PM

I think the best evidence that the "true" NOS supply is running down is the fact that the market value of NOS tubes has gotten so high that it is now economically feasible for a company to buy the old tooling that made those NOS tubes to make current production (i.e., the GT 6L6GE and "Mullard" 12ax7).

September 21st, 2004, 07:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
Matt Plescher Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: West Michigan Posts: 837	how many NOS tubes are out there? What's the supply like for NOS tubes? There's only a finite amount, so where are we in the spectrum of using them up? Cheers Matt __________________ She's not your satellite She doesn't miss you So turn off your smoke machine And Marshall stack

September 21st, 2004, 11:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
TexGoneNW Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Victoria, TX Age: 50 Posts: 907 4 Photos	I will paraphrase Big Cookie... There is not one drunk biker in the audience who can tell the difference between the RCA black plate 6V6's and the (insert name of modern reasonable facsimile here)...

September 22nd, 2004, 08:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
trag-o-caster Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Flushing, Michigan Posts: 4,438	I think where the NOS thing really applies would be with pre amp tubes. I've always had good luck with regular old Sovteks in the output section (and they seem to last longer than JJ's, and Ei's), but I would always seek out whatever really good preamp tubes that I could find - NOS, or otherwise. That's where I really noticed a tonal difference - with the preamp tubes. __________________ Timothy Jon Lamb

September 22nd, 2004, 10:43 AM	#10 (permalink)
Oskar Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northampton, MA Posts: 3,089 1 Photos	I've always wondered about that myself Plus, how am I to know that a tube is really NOS? That it hasn't be used, or discarded and recycled as NOS? I'm no tech. and happen to fall into the Cookie camp when it comes to tubes and sound, but is there an easy way I can tell? I would think the supply is quickly going, especially since high-end tube audiophiles are looking for this stuff or their stereos. I dunno, I wonder sometimes if some of this stuff is overblown. I remember playing in the 60s when everyone had a tube amp. If someone blew out a tube they went down to Louie's TV Repair Shoppe got a replacement (didn't matter what brand, just the cheapest) and stuck it back in. No biasing, no calibrating, no matching. And I never heard of anyone frying an amp as a result, or being accused of lousy sound as a result. Today it seems that the tubes have to be matched (if they are a pair), and the amp biased to the closest specs to get it to sound right. But sound right to whom? Sounds like too much work (and expense) for my tastes.

September 22nd, 2004, 11:14 AM	#11 (permalink)
Big Cookie Banned Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ennis, Texas Posts: 693	Tolerances used to be a lot tighter Oskar If you pull a dozen NOS RCA 6L6's and stick them in an amp the bias is going to be pretty consistent. With more modern tubes the current passing will be all over the board without matching and biasing. The difference is in the skilled workforce that built the old tubes. It is an intricate job that requires experience. I believe a 6L6 has 38 separate internal parts.

September 21st, 2004, 08:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
flying Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 345	But the counter point to that theory would be.......... The guys who cannot afford the NOS made that theory up... But jokes aside I was pretty surprised at how good the new jj EL84's sound ! I have them but still prefer the mullards or even the sylvanias But nobody makes a nice new EZ81 or really even a decent 12ax7 for that matter. I have never found anything to sound as nice as NOS RCA's in my 73DR or anything as nice as Mullard EL84's either. (the jj's are good tho ) But then I am not a pro player & play alone so the nice little extras in tone can be heard by me. No drums drowning it out ;) As of the world supply?? I have to agree with Matt. Like all things they will dry up in supply. I think a lot of it comes from the fact that many shops did tube repair on audio equipment & television for decades. So pockets still turn up from time to time Im sure. But honestly how many do you need? I have a pretty decent stash now from buying for 10 years here & there when a deal turned up.

September 22nd, 2004, 12:39 AM	#5 (permalink)
Will V. Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 142	While tubes vary widely, old does not mean good, necessarily. I recently had a new Sovtek 5Y3 rectifier that sounded great, but went microphonic. I replaced it with an NOS JAN Philips that would probably never go microphonic, but sounded crappy in my Champ clone. I ended up replacing that with a used, 50 year old CBS 6087.

September 22nd, 2004, 07:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
maxvintage Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Age: 49 Posts: 427	I tried the JJ 6v6s in my deluxe reverb and honestly, I had a very hard time telling them from the RCA's that were in there before. That ended my NOS fixation as far as power tubes are concerned. I think the old Svetlana (now SED) 6L6s sounded as good as any NOS tubes I tried also. I just tried, and really liked, one of those GT "Mullard reissue" 12ax7s and thought it was exellent, though construction seemed a little shaky Now I'm using ampeg amps all the time. Many Ampegs used oddball tubes--6kb11, anyone?--and nos is the only way too go. But JJ just came out with a 7591--can't wait to try it. And they are soon to release a new, completely redesigned 12ax7

September 27th, 2004, 04:43 PM	#13 (permalink)
Daddy Elmis Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: USA Posts: 961	I think the best evidence that the "true" NOS supply is running down is the fact that the market value of NOS tubes has gotten so high that it is now economically feasible for a company to buy the old tooling that made those NOS tubes to make current production (i.e., the GT 6L6GE and "Mullard" 12ax7).