DRRI + 50s classic = no punch?

[davidge1]

I have a Classic 50s Tele that I've been playing through a Music Man RD50 amp. I really put that amp/guitar combination to the test over the last year or so with a few fairly loud rock gigs I've done. The Music Man gave me enough volume and punchy tone that I was able to hear myself onstage over the bass, drums and keyboards. The drummer is a real pounder, and the keyboard player has a very loud solid state keyboard amp (putting out almost as much lows as the bass player).

Well... I decided I wasn't getting the "fender sparkle" and natural tube overdrive I wanted out of the Music Man, so I bought a used Deluxe Reverb reissue. It has an upgraded speaker (Reverend AllTone), vintage NOS tubes, and the bright cap clipped.

We played a gig over the weekend at a bar where we were unable to mic up any amps. I had the volume on 10, which gave me just about the right volume and the right amount of breakup for what we were doing. However, even with the treble down to 2 and the bass up to about 7, it was still WAY too thin and trebly. There were plenty of lows, but no punch. Even though there seemed to be plenty of volume, it got lost in the mix... just obliterated by the keyboards. A friend standing on the other side of the stage said he couldn't really hear the guitar.

I know that some people consider the 50s classic to have an overly bright pickup, so that might be part of the problem... but I'm wondering if this amp is going to work for me even with a different pickup in my guitar. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[vjf1968]

You had the amp on 10? Really? DRRI's are a loud 22 watts.

Have you though about trying a simple EQ pedal?
Have you tried the amp with the stock speaker?

[davidge1]

Yup, it's a loud amp. I probably wouldn't have turned it up that loud if I wasn't getting lost in the mix... I was just trying to compete with the drums, bass and keyboards. The gig was Sat. and my ears are still ringing! Volume's not a problem, it's just too trebly with not much mid punch.

I don't own the original speaker... this was what was in it when I bought it. Do you think a different speaker might make a big difference? What I read about the Reverend All Tone (which is no longer made) is that it's supposed to be like an early Jensen C12N... so I didn't think the speaker would be my problem. Maybe I need one thats more mid-rangy?

I should try an EQ pedal to boost the mids. I tried rolling off the tone control on my guitar, but it gets muddy before it really tames the treble.

[xjazzy]

I have that same guitar and that same amp with a Weber speaker.
I never had to play that loud but I thing it's an amp that works better with humbuckers then with single-coils.
I would probably try this:

[middy]

Originally Posted by davidge1

I should try an EQ pedal to boost the mids. I tried rolling off the tone control on my guitar, but it gets muddy before it really tames the treble.

This. Dial in a frowny face.

[Singin' Dave]

Have you checked the bias of your DRRI? They come biased pretty cold from the factory...

[davidge1]

I don't really know much about bias and how it effects the tone. Could you explain that a little?

[Durtdog]

The scooped mids of the Fender will seem less punchy than the MM amp. The MM is a strong amp with some mids. DRRI may be loud, but gets lost in the mix because of no midrange.

[clayfeat]

It sounds to me like the Deluxe just doesn't have the power you want/need. Music Man amps are pretty loud.

[Guitar_Ninja]

A Deluxe also has a tube rectifier, which is going to have less punch than solid state.

[vjf1968]

If you get one of these: http://www.barberelectronics.com/LaunchPad.htm
You can jumper the two channels together.

Or you can trade the DRRI in for TRRI.

[Axis29]

Originally Posted by clayfeat

It sounds to me like the Deluxe just doesn't have the power you want/need. Music Man amps are pretty loud.

Yes, I think this is the problem as well. I have a DRRI and played with a REALLY loud drummer for a while... Not only did my ears hate that, but it made me push the DR a lot. I usually kept up just fine, but we played this one outside gig and I was not feeling it very much. I really had a heck of a time keeping up that one time.

I love my DR. I think it's one of the greatest sounds I've ever heard! And it ain't leaving my gear array (unless I get to trade it for a real Blackface DR...)

But, if I was still competing with that old drummer of mine, I'd be looking into a Vibrolux or a Super or a Pro or Bassman... something at 40 watts plus. Probably a Vibrolux, because I like the tightness of the 2x10 configuration.

I think the sparkly 6l6 Fender amps cut a little better in a loud mix like that. I did recently pick up a 63 Vibrolux Reverb, but that's a whole 'nuther creature all together.

[davidge1]

Thanks for the comments...

The Deluxe may not turn out to be the one-size-fits-all amp I was hoping for... playing with these guys I might be better off using my Music Man.

I have a Bad Monkey that might work for boosting the mids and cutting the treble on the DRRI... we'll see how that works.

['56Teleman]

If the DRRI won't compete with the rest of the band, they're too loud. If that isn't going to change, go back to the MM. I had a 112RD50 years ago and it held its own against a Bandmaster head and a 4x12, no exaggeration. The other guitar player couldn't believe it. That amp is stupid-loud.

[Josh Davis]

Had the same problem with the DRRI. Great studio amp, not quite loud enough live. If it's the tone you're complaining about, it's not the amp. Put a nocaster bridge PU in that guitar and see what ya think. All the difference.

[winny pooh]

Originally Posted by Durtdog

The scooped mids of the Fender will seem less punchy than the MM amp. The MM is a strong amp with some mids. DRRI may be loud, but gets lost in the mix because of no midrange.

Yup, mids are your friend

[daryle]

sorry to hijack this thread but... since it has been said that the DRRI, with it's scooped mids, might get lost in the mix, would it then be a smart decision to use tweed amps to get cleans instead?

[Halldog104]

I have gigged my DRRI at high volume without a problem. If the volume is up the tone contols have to stay down to boost the mids. I go with the volume on 8.5, treble on 4.5 and the bass on 3.5. Thick and loud with a strat. When I need a little boost I use a TS9 to push it over the top.

[zook]

Put a Solid-state plug in rectifier and 6l6s in it. That will help.

Winnie

[Wally]

I am thinking that DAvid has gotten used to the definite 'punch' that a MM amp delivers. The MM he has been using has more than twice the wattage, and that circuit delivers a rock solid PUNCH. IMe and to my ear, with the volume as high as the OP is running the DR and with the bass on 10, the lows are going to go to pieces in the preamp....and muddle occurs. This will not 'cut'. That said, DAvid and his band have gotten used to an amp the will punch through plywood if need be; and the DR is not going to do the same thing. Imho, in order to get that 'FEnder sparkle' and achieve anything close to the punch of that MM amp, one might want to have a Super REverb with a solid state rectifier and some larger filter caps at the first node. Note: this will be loud by the time it starts breaking up.....but it will punch.
Of course, one also has to question the actual working condition of this used DR, right?