Clean tones: tube vs. SS

[xjazzy]

I've gigged a lot with a SS amp before I got into the tube thing.
For me the SS clean is more "flat" while the tube clean is more "3D", but there are a lot of SS amps and tube amps...

[Donnie55]

Go hybrid, tube pre amp with ss power section... I would go with a tube amp for several reasons. Here`s just one. I totally believe that one day the bug is gonna get ya and yer gonna want some overdrive. The ss amp will not give you the overdrive you desire. Not like tubes will. So just go ahead and get the tube amp.

[strat a various]

I was using a small Polytone for a while at some Jazz club gigs, when I decided to pull out the MusicMan, a loud clean amp. At one of my gigs, the pianists pointed out that the MusicMan (SS preamp, tube power amp) was much more distorted than the Polytone. Now, I had the MM set for cleans, no gain or MV stuff going on. He asked me to bring the Polytone back the next night.
I've used both of these amps on hundreds and hundreds of gigs, so I thought I knew them pretty well, but after the pianist noticed the difference, I went home and A/B'd them. While the Polytone sounded warm and dark, it really was much cleaner and more transparent, more "hi-fi" than the MM. The hybrid amp had "complex" cleans that had just a touch of hair, even on the cleanest settings. My SF Twin falls between the two, cleaner than the MM, but not as pristine as the Polytone.
All three are loud, clean amps, and are unforgiving in their accuracy, but ever since that pianist requested the Polytone, I realized that what sounded "clean" to me could be noticeably distorted to another set of discerning ears.

[3 Chord]

If it is your first amp I would get a soild state. Yes tube amp have some advantages but so do SS amps. And for practice, SS just makes sense. Buy your tube amp later once you know what you want.

I am assuming you are new to electric guitar so I will offer this (and if you are not a new player, I appologise for the basic recommendations that follow).

My advice,

If you mainly play clean look for watts, more watts = more headroom generally.

Also look for a reasonable speaker, 10" at least. Althought the Vox Pathfinder has decent tone for a practice amp and it only has a 8". Bigger speaker = bigger bass.

Get an amp with reverb.

Suggestions to check out (although you might like other stuff), PV, Vox Pathfinder, Fender.

And remember there is nothing wrong with a solid state amp. Any amp that you like the tone of and inspires you to play is a good amp.

Good luck and happy hunting!

[Will Chen]

IMHO, it all boils down to what you mean when you say clean. Many guitarists say clean, but what they really mean is less od than the lead channel. For truly clean, I mean 100% clean tone no compression or break up, tube can not match solid state. Now whether that is what you're looking for is a matter of taste. But there's a reason so many jazz players use solid state amps. It's because they want the most uncolored tone they can get.

[cwcowell]

Wow, lots more good advice. Thanks guys.

I've heard good things about the Vox Pathfinder, but have reservations about the 8" speaker. The Orange Crush 30R has a 10" speaker, so that's worth looking into.

Originally Posted by 3 Chord

If it is your first amp I would get a soild state... I am assuming you are new to electric guitar...

Reasonable assumptions, given my question. I've been playing for three years and use Line 6 PodFarm modeling software on my computer, hooked up to hifi speakers. So yes, this will be my first amp. I don't know how accurate the modeling is, so I don't know if liking a Line 6 model = liking the real thing. For example, I like the AC30 model for clean tones, but I don't know if that means I would like a real AC30.

The JC-120 is the only SS amp in my Line 6 software, and I find it unplayably brittle and harsh. But again, I don't know if that means I would think the same thing about a real JC-120, or about other SS amps.

[3 Chord]

Well now I will go back on what I just said, it sounds like you have certain tones in your head that you like. 3 years is long enough to know what you like. "Maybe" you would like a tube amp.

My two amps are a PV classic 30 and an Ampeg Jet12 RI. Both have decent cleans although not Fender clean. They both have a "little" bit of color to the sound. Being tube amps they are quite powerful despite their modest rating (30W and 15W).

FWIW I too stay away from amps with small speakers. That is why I bought the Ampeg. I wanted something different than the PV (although the PV is great) and it too has a 12" speaker.

Sorry for rambling on, I'm just trying to give you more to think about to help you find the amp for you. And btw, a some folks find a Roland JC120 a sterile sounding amp so your line 6 might be giving you a fair demonstration. But if you want squeaky clean, the JC120 delivers (but not for pratice).

So now it boils down to $, like most things.

[mattbastardson]

Originally Posted by Will Chen

IMHO, it all boils down to what you mean when you say clean. Many guitarists say clean, but what they really mean is less od than the lead channel. For truly clean, I mean 100% clean tone no compression or break up, tube can not match solid state. Now whether that is what you're looking for is a matter of taste. But there's a reason so many jazz players use solid state amps. It's because they want the most uncolored tone they can get.

+1 for sure! In my discussions with many players "clean" is so subjective. Many players call mild breakup "clean" and some people like a truly clean tone with no breakup or color at all.

The SS vs. Tube battle will rage on forever. And I mean forever. As long as there are instrument manufacturers it has to. Advertising drives this whole debate. I've come across a ton of "experts" in my career and I've heard these "experts" go on and on about this amp and that amp and at the end they show me there pedal board and I see that there signal runs through at least a half dozen solid state devices before it ever hits the amp and gets that "pure" tube tone, whatever that is. And then finally they tell me the amp is set as clean as they can get it. What? What about all that creamy breakup everyone swears you have to get from a tube amp? How will everyone hear your awesome, point to point wired, chassis mounted tube sockets, tube rectified, class A (usually A/B but that's a whole other subject), SS killer, beat up on my Peavey Special 130?

Sorry for the rant!

I beg you to go to your local shop and play as many amps as you can get your hands on. Take your guitar with you. Like jakedog said, the amp is an instrument as well. Find a good relationship for your guitars. This will make you happy. In the end, I think you'll find that if you listen with your ears and not your eyes you will find a winner.

Happy Hunting,

[vjf1968]

I believe he is playing through a SS Peavy.

In playing music and the more players I encounter I have to say that it really is the player that makes the tone. I think whether tube or solid state if the player knows the gear well enough they can coax anything out of it.

[vjf1968]

[Faraldi]

I've had both tube and SS and I prefer SS for a number of reasons.

Durability. (And I know there are gonna be some responses to this) I've owned a couple of tube amps and have gigged with them a lot. While they sounded great, there were always concerns and issues that came about simply due to the fact that with tubes, things can go wrong at an almost exponential frequency. No, I don't abuse my stuff at all... it's just that I've experienced many more issues with my tube amps. Perhaps simply a bad streak of luck. Not sure.

With my SS amps (specifically a Fender Frontman 212R and my new Peavey Bandit 112 TransTube, they are incredibly durable. This accounts for a lot less "gig stress" when setting up and hoping for no amp issues. Note, these are higher powered SS amps and for my money, they are the way to go, even if you're using one for practice. For me, there's no point to buying a small 15 watt SS amp. There's just no way to get your true guitar tone from one. (IMO)

Weight: Dimensionally similar tube and SS amps will have dramatic differences in weight. Again, for me, SS is just easier to manage.

Clean headroom to Cost ratio: I've experienced that my 100W SS amps are similar in cost to a good 5W tube amp. Now, it's so true that tube power is stronger than SS power. But for me, I want massive CLEAN headroom that I can only have with SS amps (unless I buy a high wattage tube amp and then get divorced).

So the question is how you're going to use your amp. If you want a practice amp that can give you some dirt at stoll manageable levels, maybe a 5W tube combo is for you. But, if you're like me and you enjoy stompbox effects (I use and love my Line6 M9) pick up a quality SS amp that has more power and you will grow with it.

I just think SS is so much more versatile.

Good luck!

[cwcowell]

Originally Posted by mattbastardson

I beg you to go to your local shop and play as many amps as you can get your hands on.

Yep, definitely the way to go. I was hoping that there would be a clear consensus as to whether tube amps do or don't have any advantages over SS for pure clean tones, which would help me narrow the field, but I should have known better than to expect that.

By the way, when I talk about playing clean, I really do mean 100% clean, with no grit or grain or gravel in the sound. I do like using a compressor to soften the initial attack, but I can achieve that with a pedal and don't need the amp to provide it. I only mention that because built-in mild compression is often touted as an advantage of tubes.

[mattbastardson]

Looking at it from a technical level there isn't much difference in the soundwave produced from either tube or SS until you introduce soft clipping. Having said that, do a google search on the subject and read some technical articles, very funny to see some science thrown in the equation. Pun intended.

Plenty of adjectives constantly thrown around about both...

Tube= lush, sweet, plush, deep

Solid State= harsh, raspy, brittle, lifeless

It's funny though, guitar seems to be the only instrument we care about amplifying through a tube amp. Vocals, bass, keyboards, horns, almost everything else we hear is run through SS amplification. You never hear anyone say " Aretha Franklin sure sounded lifeless and lacking soul when she sang through that solid state mixing board".

I say let the debate rage on and get yourself an amp and play the $#@t out of it.

By the way, plenty of strings about it here but if you aren't familiar with some great players who play SS amps I'll just list a few tele guys, Redd Volkaert (freguent tdpri visitor and all around tele monster) Ray Flacke (super tele picker, session ace), here's a good one, not a tele player, but worth noting... B.B. King...Lab series L5. You know, B.B. that soul less, life less, brittle, depth lacking... You get my point.

Good luck, I'll stand back now and wait for my beating from all the tube purists

[cwcowell]

Originally Posted by mattbastardson

It's funny though, guitar seems to be the only instrument we care about amplifying through a tube amp.

Good food for thought. I'd never thought about it that way.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Faraldi

I've had both tube and SS and I prefer SS for a number of reasons.

Durability. (And I know there are gonna be some responses to this) I've owned a couple of tube amps and have gigged with them a lot. While they sounded great, there were always concerns and issues that came about simply due to the fact that with tubes, things can go wrong at an almost exponential frequency. No, I don't abuse my stuff at all... it's just that I've experienced many more issues with my tube amps. Perhaps simply a bad streak of luck. Not sure.

With my SS amps (specifically a Fender Frontman 212R and my new Peavey Bandit 112 TransTube, they are incredibly durable. This accounts for a lot less "gig stress" when setting up and hoping for no amp issues. Note, these are higher powered SS amps and for my money, they are the way to go, even if you're using one for practice. For me, there's no point to buying a small 15 watt SS amp. There's just no way to get your true guitar tone from one. (IMO)

I've been at this full time for over 30 years. I've had FOUR tube amp failures in that time. Four. I've also worn out over a dozen SS amps, and good ones. Peavey, Dean Markley, Acoustic Control, Fender. My amp failure rate with SS is about 4 time greater than with tubes, and I use about an equal number of each and put about the same hours per week of gigging on each type of amp.
I think good tube amps, as in old Fenders, are more reliable than SS. That said, if you want pure, crystal clean tones, a SS is the only way to be sure. Get a 100 watt amp, because to stay away from clipping, you'll need at least that.

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by strat a various

Get a 100 watt amp, because to stay away from clipping, you'll need at least that.

These days, it's easy to get 400 watt -- even 800 watt -- SS heads:

http://www.acousticimg.com/products/prod_clarus.html

[RomanS]

Originally Posted by mattbastardson

It's funny though, guitar seems to be the only instrument we care about amplifying through a tube amp. Vocals, bass, keyboards, horns, almost everything else we hear is run through SS amplification.

Nope...

There are plenty of tube bass amps out there (and not only SVTs, new models from other manufacturers are coming out all the time), some keyboard players prefer tube amps for amplifying their vintage Hammonds or Rhodes pianos (or at least a tube preamp into a solid state power amp), and there are lots of tube microphones, tube preamps, tube compressors, etc. used in recording studios, specifically for their tone...

BTW, I don't say "tube is better" (only for guitar ), but saying that only guitar players use tubes any more is simply not true!

[Chicago Slim]

Originally Posted by cwcowell

Wow, lots more good advice. Thanks guys.

I've heard good things about the Vox Pathfinder, but have reservations about the 8" speaker. The Orange Crush 30R has a 10" speaker, so that's worth looking into.

I own both the Crush 30R and Pathfinder 15R. There isn't as much difference in volume, due to the power rating and speaker size. The Orange sounds bassier. It has a better heavy overdrive sound. The Pathfinder does have that classic Vox sound. If you like the AC30 sound I would try one, reguardless of the speaker size.

[mattbastardson]

Originally Posted by RomanS

BTW, I don't say "tube is better" (only for guitar ), but saying that only guitar players use tubes any more is simply not true!

RomanS, That's not what I meant to imply. I understand about tube mics, pre's, bass amps, etc. my point is that generally when music is discussed people tend to comment on a certain performance rather than the gear. Guitar players seem to be equally concerned with, if not more concerned about what gear the performance was played on.

Sorry if I misled anyone into thinking that I was only aware of tube amps for guitar.

[RomanS]

Matt, you should check out some bass player forums or singer forums sometimes - they are gearhounds just like us 6-string players, plenty of tube-vs.SS-bass-amp threads around, plenty of threads about various microphones, preamps, etc. on singer forums.

...but that's NOT discussing MUSIC, that's discussing GEAR - two different pairs of shoes!