Mic-ing a small amp

[brokenjoe]

I was reading something in another thread that mentioned mic-ing a small amp to make it gig worthy.

The idea of mic-ing a small amp is great for throwing the sound around the room, but you had better have good monitors to be able to hear yourself, as well as a separate monitor mix so that the rest of the band can hear you at a level that they are comfortable with.

And if not, at the very least you should have an amp that you can hear at stage volume, and that the rest of the band can hear as well.

Too many times I see people posting here that small amps are used all the time by 'name' artists, so that should be good enough for you in a live situation. What they don't mention is that the 'name' artists have the best monitor mixes that can be had.

Neil Young and his tweed Deluxe is a great example. He gets a killer tone out of that old amp, but I'd bet you dollars to dimes, he'd be up the creek without monitors.

Just something to consider.....

[nosuch]

define small amp, please.
I never had problems to hear my 15 watts blues jr. on stage. honestly quite often i am asked to turn it down by soundmen. I usually run the master volume around 3-5 ...

[homerzeppelin]

Neil runs his deluxe into 2 other amps including this massive 5-6' high Baldwin, so he certainly doesn't have stage volume problems.

[FMA]

I can't speak for others, but my AC15 provides plenty of stage volume, at least for me. And that's keeping the amp volume down so I can get a decent clean, on the verge of breakup, tone.
A little through the monitors is all the rest of the band needs. Of course, we keep stage volume at a pretty moderate level so its easy to hear everything.
I've done outdoor festivals -- such as Bethlehem MusicFest -- with the AC15 with no problem.

[randysmojo]

I'm pretty sure I know the thread you're talking about and I agree. Sure a Blues Jr. can get loud, but how loud would a Champ 600 be stage volume wise, especially if you need a near clean tone? If you have an amp stand, or something to elevate the amp to closer to ear level, that will help, but it is normally still behind your head, which means firing into the back of your ears. It doesn't mean the best monitors ever made, but it really helps to have at least separate monitor mixes which that in itself is sometimes too much to ask.

[CrowePhil]

Every amp is different, obviously. The thread I'm thinking of where this topic is much discussed is a Deluxe Reverb-related thread. I have never had issues with stage volume with a Deluxe Reverb, but I'm talking about small club gigs and little outdoor gigs for a 100 people.

I'm not Neil Young, so I don't have top of the line monitors and stage set-ups, but I'm also not making Neil Young money for the gigs I do play, so I have to make due with questionable equipment for now.

[DMace]

I mostly use a 15-watt Winfield Cyclone or a 15-watt Clark Beaufort. I've never had a problem, either with hearing myself or with annoying bandmates. The key is moderation: just a touch of the amp in the monitor: bandmates barely notice it, but it provides enough extra punch to get over the drums without an effort.

[91xlntS-3]

I agree, a little bit in the monitors goes a long way. I seldom ever run my BJr back thru the monitors, but once in a great while it really helps; not just me, but other bandmembers also.

[Donnie55]

I think one needs to be aware of his or her situation. If the production is there then you can use a smaller rig. If it aint your going to have to compensate. ie A bigger rig. Its all realitive to the band you are in and the gigs you do.

[popthree]

Originally Posted by brokenjoe

And if not, at the very least you should have an amp that you can hear at stage volume, and that the rest of the band can hear as well.

i think this is the key...having amps loud enough and positioned so that they can be heard at a decent (but not overpowering) level onstage.

[brokenjoe]

Seems like I ruffled a few feathers with this thread.

I'm not trying to. But if you've ever been in a situation where your amp doesn't cut it, you'd know what I meant.

Define a small amp? I don't know, let's say something Deluxe sized or smaller.

Sure, it's about the amp size, but equally , it's about the stage size, and band volume as well. Are you the type to stay glued to your amp? Is your drummer reasonably quiet? How about the vocalist? Does your band play at the same volume regardless of the stage size?

These things are often not mentioned when people talk about using a small amp.

[Jakedog]

I would not gig with less than 30 watts under any circumstances. At 30 watts, I need to be pushing at LEAST two twelves. I can get by with one twelve if I am running 50-100 watts, but still prefer two. And it doesn't have a lot to do with volume. It has to do with tone, and headroom.

Yes, I have gigged with a Blues. Jr. as well. And was asked to turn it down, little wonder, it sounded like hell. Shrill, boxy and harsh when turned up loud enoug to gig with. Frankly, it sounds ten times louder than it actually is, because it's loud where it hurts. It just doesn't work for me. I find the same situation with most low wattage (5-25 watt) amps.

I don't haul big amps to look cool, and I don't haul them to be loud. I haul them to sound good. I've heard it a million times- "Put your amp up on a stand"- or "tilt it back and point it straight at your head". If that works for you great, but I hate the sound of an amp that isn't sitting directly flat on the floor. It loses all it's low end fullness and richness. It just starts honking and spiking at me and I don't dig that. I gig with lots of different guys, I am almost NEVER asked to turn down. I have tons of headroom for big whompy clean tones and smooth and creamy (not on the edge of exploding) OD tones. Guys I play with that play small amps are routinely asked to turn down. They are not louder than I am, in fact their stage volume is very manageable. But at that volume, those amps are letting all of their true sonic colors show, and they are usually shrill and piercing compared to a bigger amp at comparable volume. That makes soundmen, and the audience, cringe when it hits 'em in the ears.

And yeah, you can mic a 5-30 1X10 or 1X12 amp and get by with it, but you had better have great monitors as previously mentioned, and be ok with hearing your amp through the monitor. I like to hear my amp, not a reproduction of it. If I wanted that, I could save my back, and lots of money and just use my POD. Nobody in the audience would be any the wiser.

I know there is a HUGE small amp fad going on right now. And everybody wants to feel like they are right about it, cause most of them are spending obscene amounts of money for tiny little "tone" monsters. I'll tell ya though, just because I run down the street screaming to everybody that I'm the queen of England, doesn't make it so.

Gig your little amps if you love 'em. And good for you if it works. I'll stick with what works for me, and that's an amp that I can hear, and FEEL on stage, without being too loud. And that takes watts and speakers.

[Donnie55]

For me it just depends on the gig. Heres what I used on my last recording session.[IMG][/IMG]

[Hiker]

IF you're on an elevated stage playing through a Blues Jr., and there's a second guitar, bass, and a loud drummer and maybe keyboard player. The B Jr. is set at a volume just before breakup-

Will kids sitting 150 feet away in a city park hear the B Jr in the mix without a mic through a PA?

Just sayin'...

[popthree]

i dunno, seems to me that the guys sitting their big amps flat on the stage floor don't really even hear what they sound like because the sound is down at their knees. unless you are playing some really big places. i guess if you are a pro and playing a really large room and big stage and the amp is quite a ways back from you then i can see how you'd want a big ole amp, but not for me.

[RomanS]

If I were a big-time professional player, with a soundman who knows all the songs we play, and professional PA and monitor rigs at every venue we play - sure, a 5W amp might be good enough...

...back to reality: The usual situation at a lot of clubs: the soundman is a buddy of the owner who will work for free beer, and thinks a monitor is what he uses for playing computer games, and he likes to set graphic EQs to a "bathtub" setting, because that's a nice-looking shape; the FOH system is barely powerful enough to get the singer heard over the umiked drummer, and the monitor system consists of two 50W powered Behringer wedges that break down before the first set ends...
In a (not uncommon) setting like that I'd rather have an amp that at least lets me hear myself over the drummer's noise (and a 15W amp will NOT do that, if I need crystal clear clean tones!), and ideally is also powerful enough to fill a small club without any PA support, so the mediocre PA can be spared the chore of amplifying anything but the singer.

BTW, I play lap-steel, too, and as you may know, since it is a fretless instrument, lap-steel has to be intonated by ear (= you absolutely have to hear what you're playing!) - well, ever since I had to play a large club with my 15W Carvin Vintage 16 combo, sharing a single monitor with the singer & the rhythm guitar player, I refuse to play in a full band setting with any amp with less than 50W and at least two speakers...

[Tim Armstrong]

Here's the thing that so many folks just don't seem to understand about ANY mic-ed amp: A good PA system means that you just plain don't have to worry about being heard out front, therefore your amp itself becomes much more important as a guitar monitor.

I gig with a 12-watt Princeton Reverb (that I mic, of course), and I hear it just fine, as do my bandmates, because I AIM THE SPEAKER at the band! That's right, I don't just put the amp behind me on the floor and beam it at the folks on the dance floor. I put it up on top of my bass rig (or, if there's room, on a chair) on the back corner of the stage, aimed in at the middle.

It's amazing what this does to improve the onstage mix!

The thing is, this works great with big loud amps, too! You don't end up blasting the folks out front yet not being loud enough onstage.

It's funny, though, how amazingly resistant so many guitarists are to this simple concept, because they've always done it the other way, the way they've seen amps set up in photos and in concerts. Well guess what? Setting up your amp with no regard to where the speaker is actually aimed is really pretty darn silly...



Tim

[Budda]

An AKG "Bug" or Line6 Digital Wireless System can be used "backwards" to provide a nice in-ear Monitor System, on the cheap.

Since the Receiver for both of these systems is small, you can wear the receiver and plug Earbuds into that. Then, plug the "Bug" or Transmitter into the Mixing Board. Boom.

And if you spring for a little Behringer or Mackie Mini-Mixer, you can have your own personal Mix!

Just wanted to throw that out there, as other players are always surprised to see me do this. Soundmen too.

But, it works like a charm!

[brokenjoe]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I gig with a 12-watt Princeton Reverb (that I mic, of course), and I hear it just fine, as do my bandmates, because I AIM THE SPEAKER at the band! That's right, I don't just put the amp behind me on the floor and beam it at the folks on the dance floor. I put it up on top of my bass rig (or, if there's room, on a chair) on the back corner of the stage, aimed in at the middle.



The thing is, this works great with big loud amps, too! You don't end up blasting the folks out front yet not being loud enough onstage.


Tim

Yes indeed Tim.

But, as I stated above, you had better have a good sound guy -or at least one that gives a monkey's- and a band that plays at a consistent volume. It only takes one guy to start the 'volume war.'

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by brokenjoe

Yes indeed Tim.

But, as I stated above, you had better have a good sound guy -or at least one that gives a monkey's- and a band that plays at a consistent volume. It only takes one guy to start the 'volume war.'

We don't have a soundman for 99% of our gigs! But then again, we gig a whole lot (we're a resort town bar band, I make half my living gigging). We do a quick sound check to get our levels right, and then we just let 'er rip.

We never have volume wars, because we keep our onstage volume down to reasonable levels, and like I said above, we make sure we can hear each other.

Our set up is: vocals, guitar amps (my PR and my brother's Vox AD30vt), snare and kick mic-ed; keyboard direct to mixer (and that and the vocals are the only thing in the monitors); bass amp into the room (used to run a line out, but I fried a PA speaker twice!). We have folks we trust at most of our gigs to let us know if things get out of balance.

I've found from personal experience that it's a lot more likely that volume problems come when a band DOESN'T mic the guitar amps because first, you need to play a lot louder to carry the room, and second, it's pretty much impossible for anyone onstage to accurately assess the mix! Having to carry the room with the guitar amps makes doing the side-fill, aim the amps at the band thing a non-starter...

Tim

[Ben Harmless]

I posted a similar thread awhile back. The gist was that in the places I make music, one cannot count on a decent PA, let alone someone to run it. I own several mics that are good on my guitar cab, but they've mostly been used for recording.

My music doesn't lend itself to reinforcement by cheap means. I blame the drummers.

[DMace]

Originally Posted by Ben Harmless

I posted a similar thread awhile back. The gist was that in the places I make music, one cannot count on a decent PA, let alone someone to run it. I own several mics that are good on my guitar cab, but they've mostly been used for recording.

My music doesn't lend itself to reinforcement by cheap means. I blame the drummers.

when all else fails, blame the drummer.

[Singin' Dave]

Interesting thread on a hot and often discussed topic lately. I'll preface with the old "diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks" - whatever tickles your pickle! All opinions are welcome!

Althought I have one of just about every SF Fender amp made between 5 and 50 watts and try to bring the right tool for the job, I guess I'm definitely in the mic the smaller amp these days. I should qualify my opinion a bit here as I am mostly a frontman who plays a pretty darn average rhythm guitar, so maybe I'm not as picky about my tone as others.

But as I see it, micing a small amp accomplishes a few things for me:

- Less to carry and easier to do so
- my sound is projected evenly throughout the room/venue as opposed to louder where my amp is pointed and softer on the sides
- I can get my single channeled amps right to that just about to break up point I find most pleasing to me without excessive stasge volume or soundmen annoyance
- I too use the amp as a monitor only and try to side feed the stage for a good stage mix similar to rehearsals, keeping things consistent practice to gig
- I really like the stereo effect of hearing 50% my amp and 50% my miced tone through monitors. Feels really full and surrounding to me.

I completely get the argument that you often can't trust the PA system or soundmen in a lot of clubs, but I would hope you are doing a bit of research on the venue's sound system before the gig. If their PA sucks, you're band is probably not sounding so great anyway, at least your vocals. But I've done vocals only in AP gigs that sounded good, and for those I will often bring a Supr or Bassman, especially if it's outside.

But I'd say 98% of the time, we have a PA that can accommodate my amp miced and I'm blessed to be in two bands that don't do volume creep. The places we play have nice PAs or we bring our own. Even if we bring our smaller PA with only 2 mon mixes, I can get my guitar in the mon mixes up just as loud and more evenly than if I tried to monitor my guitar to the stage with amp alone.

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Jakedog

I would not gig with less than 30 watts under any circumstances. At 30 watts, I need to be pushing at LEAST two twelves. I can get by with one twelve if I am running 50-100 watts, but still prefer two. And it doesn't have a lot to do with volume. It has to do with tone, and headroom.

Yes, I have gigged with a Blues. Jr. as well. And was asked to turn it down, little wonder, it sounded like hell. Shrill, boxy and harsh when turned up loud enoug to gig with. Frankly, it sounds ten times louder than it actually is, because it's loud where it hurts. It just doesn't work for me. I find the same situation with most low wattage (5-25 watt) amps.

I don't haul big amps to look cool, and I don't haul them to be loud. I haul them to sound good. I've heard it a million times- "Put your amp up on a stand"- or "tilt it back and point it straight at your head". If that works for you great, but I hate the sound of an amp that isn't sitting directly flat on the floor. It loses all it's low end fullness and richness. It just starts honking and spiking at me and I don't dig that. I gig with lots of different guys, I am almost NEVER asked to turn down. I have tons of headroom for big whompy clean tones and smooth and creamy (not on the edge of exploding) OD tones. Guys I play with that play small amps are routinely asked to turn down. They are not louder than I am, in fact their stage volume is very manageable. But at that volume, those amps are letting all of their true sonic colors show, and they are usually shrill and piercing compared to a bigger amp at comparable volume. That makes soundmen, and the audience, cringe when it hits 'em in the ears.

And yeah, you can mic a 5-30 1X10 or 1X12 amp and get by with it, but you had better have great monitors as previously mentioned, and be ok with hearing your amp through the monitor. I like to hear my amp, not a reproduction of it. If I wanted that, I could save my back, and lots of money and just use my POD. Nobody in the audience would be any the wiser.

I know there is a HUGE small amp fad going on right now. And everybody wants to feel like they are right about it, cause most of them are spending obscene amounts of money for tiny little "tone" monsters. I'll tell ya though, just because I run down the street screaming to everybody that I'm the queen of England, doesn't make it so.

Gig your little amps if you love 'em. And good for you if it works. I'll stick with what works for me, and that's an amp that I can hear, and FEEL on stage, without being too loud. And that takes watts and speakers.

The points above are very important. Around here, lots of players work basically small bars, noisy bars, or jams, when they are working at all, and the volume levels will be different than big concert venues, festivals, rock clubs, or very big night clubs with major disco systems engaged on the break times.
First, the ubiquitous Blues Jr., loud for it's size, like an angry Schnauzer barking at the audience. If it sounds good, use it, but ... man unless they are mic'd they sound so small and boxy. Like, turn down that boombox, the speakers are distorting. Loud enough in an "enough of THAT" kind of way. Different strokes.
Many amps, especially combos, lose their substance when elevated. I agree. Depending on the style of music and size of the room, I'll sometimes tilt my Twin, but at big shows, it's usually flat on the stage, or a big riser. I'll go out in the room with a wireless or a long chord, and dial in the amount of bass. After that, standing ten feet or so in front of it, I can hear and feel what I need to play.
Amps through monitors need dedicated monitor mixes. There should be a mix for the band, with balanced vocals and whatever else is pertinent (acoustic instruments, a little bleed from the other side of the stage, etc.), and then there needs to be a mix for the guitarist(s) with more guitar in the mix so you can hear your self very clearly. In a group with say, two guitars and a piano, you need at least three dedicated mixes for monitors. Pro soundmen can do it easily, but surprisingly, even some big places don't have the set-up to do this.
I know if I have a 50-100 watt amp in a big club, we can mic it if the front needs a little more, but that I'll have my own stage volume covered and that the audience at least near the stage, will hear what I hear, not the EQ dialed in by the sound guy.

[Dave Hopping]

I'm with Jakedog and Brokenjoe.I consider my amp to be my instrument monitor,and I don't want it in my monitor mix.What I do want in my monitor is the vocals.I'd always preferred low onstage volume anyway,but I had a revelation a few years ago at the Thomas Point Beach Bluegrass Festival up in Maine.Band after band played this jaw-dropping all-acoustic music,and every single note was played/sung into ONE microphone.That means the players were adjusting their onstage AND front-of-house vocal and instrument balance themselves in real time--to a couple of thousand listeners at an outdoors venue.Less is more.

[TG]

I'm in 3 bands at the moment and I go out with a few more occasionally. An amp that works a charm in one situation can be useless in another...and that includes playing in a different band in the same venue. I have a Blues Junior, a Fame GTA-15 and a Roland Cube60 and there is sometimes no obvious logic to what amp works best...miced or unmiced...in a situation.
The volume of the drummer and the sort of monitor setup you have also has a lot to do with this, so you can't assume that 'just micing a small amp into the PA' will be ideal in every situation. It sometimes isn't.

The point I'm making is that it's easy for us to come on here and say that you just need to do this or that, based on our individual experiences...but going from situation to situation has shown me that what works for me in one situation simply will not work for someone else in another.
I was totally OK with my Blues Junior for years when I was just in a wedding band, but now I'm actively researching getting another larger amp as well. I've had a few uncomfortable nights where I really needed something like a 50w tube amp.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by TG

I'm in 3 bands at the moment and I go out with a few more occasionally. An amp that works a charm in one situation can be useless in another...and that includes playing in a different band in the same venue. I have a Blues Junior, a Fame GTA-15 and a Roland Cube60 and there is sometimes no obvious logic to what amp works best...miced or unmiced...in a situation.
The volume of the drummer and the sort of monitor setup you have also has a lot to do with this, so you can't assume that 'just micing a small amp into the PA' will be ideal in every situation. It sometimes isn't.

The point I'm making is that it's easy for us to come on here and say that you just need to do this or that, based on our individual experiences...but going from situation to situation has shown me that what works for me in one situation simply will not work for someone else in another.
I was totally OK with my Blues Junior for years when I was just in a wedding band, but now I'm actively researching getting another larger amp as well. I've had a few uncomfortable nights where I really needed something like a 50w tube amp.

I absolutely agree that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and certainly there ain't no One True Way!

But I'm responding to the OP's comments about monitoring, really, pointing out that these small amplifiers that we're mic-ing generally have speakers built right into them, and that if one AIMS them at the rest of the band, dollars to donuts one won't need to put them into the monitors, and a band can keep the onstage volume down to a reasonable, effective and controllable level.

Also, a small cranked amp can sound absolutely HUGE through the PA system, as it's no longer a 12-watt Princeton Reverb, it's a 12-watt Princeton Reverb through a 400-watt PA amp! I'd also submit that close-micing the amp's speaker tends to make the "amp on the floor vs amp up on a chair" tonal difference somewhat less detectable...

This approach has worked extremely well for us in a huge variety of venues, from outdoor to indoor to small places to huge places, playing a very wide variety of music (classic rock, blues, country, folk and R&B). I think the reason it has so well is that we don't generally have to vary our onstage volume very much from place to place, and we can make the FOH ("front of house" for those not familiar with PA-speak) volume as loud or soft as required via the PA system volume setting.

We carry our own PA system to most of our gigs, so our familiarity with it certainly helps, but really, it ain't rocket science to make work with a house system. Four vocal mics, two guitar amp mics, two drum mics (kick and snare), line in for keys, line in for bass if it's a really big room. We have an 8-channel Yamaha powered mixer, and use a Mackie board to add imputs.

Tim

[Ben Harmless]

Fast forward to 2:05 for the funny, relevant bit.



BTW, Acey Slade looks like a jerk in this video, but is in reality one of the nicest people I have ever met. Ever. Even after playing to about seven people in a tiny little club in Albany when he used to play to tens of thousands when he was in The Murderdolls.

[Tim Armstrong]

I love the mic being almost bigger than the amp!

Tim

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I absolutely agree that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and certainly there ain't no One True Way!

But I'm responding to the OP's comments about monitoring, really, pointing out that these small amplifiers that we're mic-ing generally have speakers built right into them, and that if one AIMS them at the rest of the band, dollars to donuts one won't need to put them into the monitors, and a band can keep the onstage volume down to a reasonable, effective and controllable level.

Also, a small cranked amp can sound absolutely HUGE through the PA system, as it's no longer a 12-watt Princeton Reverb, it's a 12-watt Princeton Reverb through a 400-watt PA amp! I'd also submit that close-micing the amp's speaker tends to make the "amp on the floor vs amp up on a chair" tonal difference somewhat less detectable...

This approach has worked extremely well for us in a huge variety of venues, from outdoor to indoor to small places to huge places, playing a very wide variety of music (classic rock, blues, country, folk and R&B). I think the reason it has so well is that we don't generally have to vary our onstage volume very much from place to place, and we can make the FOH ("front of house" for those not familiar with PA-speak) volume as loud or soft as required via the PA system volume setting.

We carry our own PA system to most of our gigs, so our familiarity with it certainly helps, but really, it ain't rocket science to make work with a house system. Four vocal mics, two guitar amp mics, two drum mics (kick and snare), line in for keys, line in for bass if it's a really big room. We have an 8-channel Yamaha powered mixer, and use a Mackie board to add imputs.

Tim

You are quite correct that your guitar amp makes a great on stage monitor for you and the band, better than cluttering up the vocal monitors with guitar feed. My problem with that scenario is that, though the close-mic'd amp may sound great to the audience (and it might not, depending on the sound man), on a stand/ chair or tilted up, it may not sound inspiring to me, the other band members, or the front row.
For a while, I used an extension cab as a stage monitor, main amp on the floor aimed at the crowd, ex. speaker like a sidefill, for the benefit of the band.
Any more, sound guys run some guitar into the monitors even if you plead otherwise, so I just angle my amp slightly toward the band and cross my fingers. I really need to hear a tone I love from the amp to be able to play. I get distracted by hearing a quieter or thinner tone than I expect at a gig, even if it sounds huge out front.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by strat a various

You are quite correct that your guitar amp makes a great on stage monitor for you and the band, better than cluttering up the vocal monitors with guitar feed. My problem with that scenario is that, though the close-mic'd amp may sound great to the audience (and it might not, depending on the sound man), on a stand/ chair or tilted up, it may not sound inspiring to me, the other band members, or the front row.
For a while, I used an extension cab as a stage monitor, main amp on the floor aimed at the crowd, ex. speaker like a sidefill, for the benefit of the band.
Any more, sound guys run some guitar into the monitors even if you plead otherwise, so I just angle my amp slightly toward the band and cross my fingers. I really need to hear a tone I love from the amp to be able to play. I get distracted by hearing a quieter or thinner tone than I expect at a gig, even if it sounds huge out front.

I hear ya!

I just dial in a stinkin' great tone with the amp up where I can hear it!



Tim

[nosuch]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I hear ya!

I just dial in a stinkin' great tone with the amp up where I can hear it!

that's the way to go!