Thinking about a princeton

[nosuch]

After checking my friends PRRI and another sample lately I am thinking about getting one. Love that sound.
Looking at E-Bay I find that (due to the utile exchange rate) Silverface princetons from the 70s are even more accessible than the reissue.
I'd have to change the power transformer to 220 v but that shouldn't be a problem. Did Fender change the circuit on that little amp as much as on the bigger ones?
are these 70s princetons usually reliable?

what do you think?
should I get a reissue or an older one?

[tomfarnan]

I have only tried a Blackface version and it was seriously fantastic. I'd be be seriously into a good silverface version, particularly something from 68 - 72. I had less luck with a later SF Vibrolux.

[Mik]

If you want something like your friends PRRI then make sure you get a Princeton Reverb.

A plain Princeton (nonreverb) is a totally different amp than Princeton Reverb.

[Donnie55]

I wouldnt say totally different. Tone wise they are very close. The non verb model doesnt break up as soon. To get mine to break up I have to run it on 7. The verb model has an extra gain stage for the reverb so they break up a little earlier. The non verb models never get the respect they deserve. If I need distortion I just kick in my Boss Blues Driver. Great tone. Heres a pic 1970 model AA964 sames as the blackface.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Tim Armstrong]

I had a non-reverb Princeton that was a seriously sweet amp, but that missing bit of gain made it a little bit less useable at a gig than the Princeton Reverb I own now. However, I've since figured out that a nice clean boost pedal would've taken care of that quite nicely!

Tim

[ntasher]

Get a 70's Princeton Reverb. If the amp circuit is AA1170 (i.e. made from 71' and on) you get the power transformer with a dual primary that can be wired for 110V (stock) or 220V (what I did). Same is true for most 70's silver face Fenders. A sweet sweet amp!
Get a qualified amp tech to do the voltage change for you so you don't mess up things.
Nir

[Groovey Records]

Ntsar Is Right on the 71 SF PR having the PT you need .
Go with that rather then a RI

I couldn't live without the reverb or tremlo


Here is what Jim Campilongo has to say about the PR

Enjoy.

AMPLIFICATION

I own many amps but I prefer the weight, portability and sound of Princeton Reverbs. I own two '66 Princeton Reverbs, three 70's, two new reissues, two '70's Vibrolux Reverbs (one has solid state rectifier instead of a tube) and a 70's Vibrochamp (the most amazing vibrato sound ever created).

SPEAKERS

The variety of speakers in my Princeton amps:

a) Celestion G-10 for a throaty "compressed" sound. This speaker isn't too bright so sometimes I'll use it for "jazz" sounds as well.

b) 60's "Gold Back" Jensen C-10 N. My favorite speaker. The more advanced the the Jensen speaker alphabet (as in Q verses N) the less the wattage capacity. The N Jensen C-10 seem to be robust enough to handle maximum volume, de-tuning and whatever else I throw at it. The highs are cutting but still pleasant.

TUBES

I replace all my amps with "new old stock" tubes. Any of the available NOS's are, in my opinion, an improvement over "stock" Russian or Chinese tubes. Also, if you're like me and play 45 year old amps on "10" for six months you should expect to have to replace tubes and speakers more than you'll like. Remember... When it comes to tone, there is no such thing as a "free lunch"!

BIASING HOT

I bias all my amps on the hot side. Princeton amps are normally biased at about 22. My Princetons are biased at 30 - AT LEAST! Sometimes over-biasing can add unwanted overtones, so use your ears. Biasing hot also shortens speaker and tube life, but in my humble opinion, it's great while it lasts. (Hey, that "free lunch" line is around the corner, pal!)

[Rick J]

Very little change to the circuit of a Princeton Reverb from sixties to 1981 when they were discontinued in that format. A fairly useless "pull boost" was added to the volume control, but its out of circuit if not pulled, so no problem. They are easy to work on, and because of their hand wired design should be infinitely serviceable and repairable. Stock speakers were their weak point, but easily upgraded now with a Weber or a Jensen. I have two, a 78 and an 81, and they are both great. Used together they are even better!

Only point is that when buying a thirty plus year old tube (valve)amp, you need to factor in once-over by a tech, unless you know its history, and maybe some new tubes.

Rick J

[nosuch]

so you think I'd rather get this: http://cgi.ebay.de/Fender-Princeton-...item3ef6928554 or that http://cgi.ebay.de/Vintage-70s-Fende...item1c0d84e744 and have the transformator rewired, then buying the RI?

[ntasher]

I'd say get one like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-70s-Fend...4#ht_670wt_925
at a better price...

[nosuch]

a better price?

what is the normal price for these?

[nosuch]

what do you think about this one: http://cgi.ebay.de/1965-Fender-Princ...3D10%26ps%3D63
?

[ntasher]

The 1965 amp look nice but you will need to change the power transformer which is some $120 more plus labor.
All in all, a good condition SFPR should be $650-$750. Add shipping to that (I'd say $150-$200 to Germany) and you have an idea of the cost (any taxes apply?).
You should run your searches at www.ebay.com rather than ebay.de since not all US listed amps will show up on the German site...
And remember to use Ebay's "completed listing" search to get the actual closing numbers of past transactions.
Nir

[studio1087]

Originally Posted by Groovey Records

I couldn't live without the reverb or tremlo

The reverb and trem on the reissue are so lush...they make 1/2 the amp.

You have to have the reverb and trem.

Listen....



I'm taking me PRRI to the grave. Really.

John

[DMace]

Originally Posted by Donnie55

I wouldnt say totally different. Tone wise they are very close. The non verb model doesnt break up as soon. To get mine to break up I have to run it on 7. The verb model has an extra gain stage for the reverb so they break up a little earlier. The non verb models never get the respect they deserve. If I need distortion I just kick in my Boss Blues Driver. Great tone. Heres a pic 1970 model AA964 sames as the blackface.
[IMG][/IMG]

Yep, the non-verb Princeton is THE vintage amp bargain. In the States you can get a SF for $500 or less, depending on condition. Miked they can cover most gigs, and they sound amazing. Just add a good reverb and/or overdrive pedal, if so desired.

[Mik]

I'd say totally different.

Wait a sec-I DID say totally different.

Gotta run to Home Depot. Later.

[nosuch]

man, the question was never: "reverb or not?"
what's wrong with you guys?
you're hijacking my thread ....

[DMace]

Originally Posted by nosuch

man, the question was never: "reverb or not?"
what's wrong with you guys?
you're hijacking my thread ....

nosuch,
After nearly 1000 posts, have you not figured out that threads take on a life of their own? Anywho, if you can get an old Princeton, get an old Princeton. They sound much better than the reissues, imho. Plus, it'll continue to appreciate in value.

[imsilly]

Originally Posted by nosuch

I'd have to change the power transformer to 220 v but that shouldn't be a problem.

If you do that you'd have a problem, you'd just have ruined the originality and price of your amp.

I think it's cheaper, easier and more useful to just buy an outboard stepdown transformer. Most of the later Silverface Princeton Reverbs in Europe actually have an export transformer with variable voltage settings. They are badass amps, I'm tracking a few at the moment.

I think Princeton Reverbs kept very similar if not exactly the same circuit until they added a boost function in 1977.

Choose one with a good speaker as well I have seen them with the same CTS Alnico 10 inch speakers that they put in Super Reverbs and Vibrolux Reverbs. They are great sounding speakers. Also choose one in as original condition as possible and one that was regularly serviced.

[gtrplr]

To the tune of Brad Paisley's "Waitin' on a woman"

I went down to the guitar place
The salesman came up with a smile on his face
and asked me,
"You thinking 'bout a Princeton?"

I nodded yeah, said how about you
He said son, since 1962 I've been
Thinkin 'bout a Princeton.

When I went to play my first gig date
I pulled her right out of the crate
Plugged her in and just started to play
The audience went crazy when
I cranked to volume up to 10
Let me tell you son, it made my day
Yeah, I've spent some time, blowing my mind
Thinking 'bout a Princeton.

[studio1087]

Originally Posted by nosuch

man, the question was never: "reverb or not?"
what's wrong with you guys?
you're hijacking my thread ....

Sorry....what I ,eant was that I love the Reissue. The reverb and trem and overall warmth of the reissue are fantastic.

[milocj]

I think the confusion with the reverb vs non-verb issue comes about because people start dropping "Reverb" from the amp name to shorten their topic titles or replies to a topic. Because the Princeton and Princeton Reverb take on a different character from each other after they start to break up it is a pretty important distinction to make.

I would stay away from the Ebay auction for the PR with the $750 BIN price as somebody has drilled a hole through the chassis and faceplate and modded the amp. The price is too high for a modded SFPR with a mod, even if it was done well, which you won't know since you can't try it out first.

A step down transformer does seem like the easier answer, but I don't see that replacing the power transformer would hurt the value too much if you got a direct replacement and could return the amp to original with no mods except for breaking solder joints (it might affect the value of a BFPR a little more). I do think that the export models also used a different power switch. You may or may not need to replace that even if you bought a SFPR with the export transformer when you wired it for the additional voltage.

The "pull-boost" versions sound the same as the earlier versions if you don't pull the boost knob. I have put my friend's 1979-1980 PR side by side with my 1967 and there is no clear winner with similar speakers. The one thing that I have noticed is that Fender must have changed the taper of the volume pots from the earlier to later versions. His amp on 3-4 sounds about the same as mine on 6-7, but when you turn them all the way up they both put out the same volume. I suppose that was done to make the amp seem louder during the power/volume wars of the '70s.

[Demo]

So how much is a new PR?

[Vizcaster]

In about '71 they added a polarity switch which might come in handy if you're getting ground-loop hum, but they did not change the schematic otherwise so black-face to silver-face is really only a cosmetic issue. Wish I'd kept my '71 silver face PR.

[nosuch]

Originally Posted by DMace

nosuch,
After nearly 1000 posts, have you not figured out that threads take on a life of their own? Anywho, if you can get an old Princeton, get an old Princeton. They sound much better than the reissues, imho. Plus, it'll continue to appreciate in value.

Yeah, I know, was just kidding.


the reissue goes for 959 € ($ 1.400) new, this weekend one went for € 600 on ebay, but i let that pass because the seller doesn't have a pristine resume - and had 3 autions for the same item as it seems, all ended when the first one got sold. second hand it goes for anything between 500 and 700 € on ebay.
getting an older export model is a god plan. I just didn't see any. I am not pressed so I can watch the market a bit for a good occasion.

[nosuch]

thinking about stability. would an old amp be a solid companion once it got some tlc?
I mean these little buddies are like 30-40 years old. will they still be strong? won't the parts like transformers wore out sometimes?
a lot is said about the older amps sounding better than the reissues. honestly I thougt the RI is a s good as it gets in a small amp. how would you define better speaking of original vs. RI?

[DMace]

Originally Posted by nosuch

thinking about stability. would an old amp be a solid companion once it got some tlc?
I mean these little buddies are like 30-40 years old. will they still be strong? won't the parts like transformers wore out sometimes?
a lot is said about the older amps sounding better than the reissues. honestly I thougt the RI is a s good as it gets in a small amp. how would you define better speaking of original vs. RI?

For me, it always comes down to the original being warmer and richer in tone. The PRRI is a very nice amp, but the originals just have a warmth and sparkle that can't be matched. ymmv. I gig with a 1965 Princeton without problem. You just have to make sure you don't neglect the amp's maintenance. But, yes, 40 year-old parts like transformers have a lifespan. New amps die mid-gig as well though. It's always a crapshoot with amps.

[Groovey Records]

The re issue is a good amp.

To get it closer to a BF tone you will need to change the speaker and the tubes.

Then it will be closer but not the same.

It doesn't have the P2P wiring of the BF's and SF's. I see nothing wrong with using printed circuits until it comes time to repair them.

IMHO the PR of either variety sounds best cooking with Vol., Bass & Treb full on with reverb and trem to taste. Also the amp should be biased to run HOT HOT HOT close to 30 or more.

Thats the magic tone zone with the PR.

I don't think the PCB circuits can run that hot without eventually going tits up.

The SF's around 75 have the transformer winding that can be changed to handle European current 220V.

Thats the best information I can give you

[Middleman]

I picked up a silverface Princeton reverb circa 77 a few months back for $400 sitting on the floor at GC. My hands were trembling when I paid for the amp, I was concerned that someone would figure out it was worth a lot more and stop me at the door. It is one of the best sounding recording amps I have played. You won't regret the decision and as stated above, the circuit did not change for the most part during the entire lifespan of the 60s, 70s & early 80s run.