Is it really possible to get marshall from a fender?

[CA_Dan]

Aside from tube and gain differences, a big component of "the marshall sound" is the tone stack. The marshall tone stack varies significantly from most fender tone stacks. It seems like placing a marshall-like stompbox in front of a fender wouldn't really do the job since the pedal goes through the fender tone stack. Then again, I guess one could tweak the tone stack of the pedal to emphasize some frequecies and cut others to compensate, but this could affect overall tone. Anyone have a suggestion for getting decent switchable marshall tone out of a clean HRD or DRRI, using a stompbox or otherwise? I was toying with the idea of a switchable tone stack in the effects loop of my HRD. Thoughts?

[bargoedboy]

well i used to use a bandmaster reverb head with valve rectifier with a marshall 2x12" cab add a touch of tubescreamer and everyone thought i was using a marshall, sounded just like an old bluesbreaker.

[jjkrause84]

I suppose the old wisdom would be "If you want a Marshall, get a Marshall"

[rangercaster]

weren't Marshall's early designs influenced by Fender, if not copied ??? IIRC, the Bassman circuit was in question ...

[Wayne Alexander]

My experience and my ears tell me that you can't use stompboxes to make a Marshall sound like a Vox or a Fender, and vice versa. The amps are very different. The fact that the circuits are fairly similar on the JTM45 and the 5F6A Bassman does not make the amps sound even remotely alike - the speakers, transformers, components, etc make a huge difference. A JTM45 does NOT sound like a Tweed Bassman. I own all these amps. My recommendation, if you want a Marshall sound as your main amp sound, don't try to get that out of a Fender. If you want a Fender amp sound for most of what you play and a distortion sound for some things, then audition stompboxes, but don't expect your Fender to sound like a Marshall (any of them).

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by rangercaster

weren't Marshall's early designs influenced by Fender, if not copied ??? IIRC, the Bassman circuit was in question ...

The circuits are VERY close. However, the amps sound nothing alike IMO. Plug into a Bassman, and then plug into a JTM 45. Totally different animals tonally. Different power tubes, different pre-amp tubes, different speakers types and configurations, tons of un-similar things. If a bassman actually sounded anything like a good Marshall at all, I'd own one.

And once you get into the big plexis, JMP's, etc.- fuggedabboutit. No Fender amp I've ever heard can do what a Marshall does. And vice versa... They are really different beasts. You can get close with some nice mid-humped drive and/or distortion, but it's not ever really gonna be there. The question the OP should ask himself, is "how close is close enough?" Try out some Marshalls (real ones) and then try out some pedals. If you can find a pedal that makes you happy enough, go for it. If not, save your pennies and grab a Marshall. Unless of course we're talking Marshall CLEAN tones... In that case, a Marshall or dead nuts clone is the only thing that'll do that. Period. You'll never get Marshall cleans out of a Fender style amp.

I'd take a good Marshall over just about anything else ever built, for any style of music.

[Dave Hopping]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

I suppose the old wisdom would be "If you want a Marshall, get a Marshall"

Is that like declaring......Marshall Law?

[Post Toastie]

Well if you like the Social Distortion and The Sex Pistols sound then the Fender amp will work for you.

[jjkrause84]

Originally Posted by Dave Hopping

Is that like declaring......Marshall Law?

Like this?

[Demo]

My experience tells me that Wayne is dead spot on.

[patrickhowell]

Originally Posted by rangercaster

weren't Marshall's early designs influenced by Fender, if not copied ??? IIRC, the Bassman circuit was in question ...

Jim copied Leo's design, but substituted parts that he could find locally in England. By the time he made it to production, the amps had a similar circuit, but each had its own distinct sound.

And from there, both companies evolved in very different ways, so you can't really compare.

[morroben]

The guy who built my 5E3 for me voiced the bright channel to be a bit more Marshall/Voxy. I don't know enough about amps to tell you what the mods were, but I think it was fairly successful. Not going to fool a die hard Marshall guy, but it comes fairly close and makes the amp very versatile. I use that bright channel more than the normal channel.
I also have a Marshall Guv'nor pedal, but I rarely use it. Doesn't sound that great to me and I can get my drive other ways.

[Donnie55]

I had a hot rodded 50 watt blackface head , ran it thru 4/12 Marshall cab. It was a one trick pony . On ten it roared but that was it. The mod was supposed to make it sound like a 50 watt Marshall without a master volume. But you couldnt buy a clean Marshall tone from it. I have owned both and would have to say no , you cant make one sound like the other.

www.myspace.com/redtele2

[Twang King]

[Ben Harmless]

Originally Posted by Post Toastie

Well if you like the Social Distortion and The Sex Pistols sound then the Fender amp will work for you.

The thing is, so will the Marshall.

Just MHO, but the amps may sound "nothing alike" to the people who own them and critically listen to them, but to folks who are just plain music fans, that cranked Bassman isn't that far from that cranked JTM45. Further, my old Marshall Guv'nor through a Deluxe or something is still a pretty darn good imitation of a MV Marshall.

Ask Joe Blow show-goer if he knows or cares the difference.

So, for me, the answer is yes, you can get a Marshall out of a Fender. The other way is harder, and I still prefer the real thing for the feel and the taste, but you can get it if you want it.

[fender_bender]

The early JTM 45's were extremely similar to the Tweed bassman and some even had 6l6's. The big difference was the transformers and the speakers/ cab. Also the late 60's superbass was nearly identical as well.

I think you could fool alot of people by plugging a tweed bassman into a marshall cab or, the other way, a JTM/superbass into a 4x10 open back with jensens. I believe the cabs and speaker had a much larger influence on the sound than the minor electrical changes. This includes tubes which I think are overblown as tonal finger prints. I've heard marshall plexi circuits using 6v6's, el84's and 6l6's that sound every bit as british as the el-34 versions. The differences can be subtle... or not. it depends on who tuned the amp.

By the time you get to the late 60's plexi's and aluminum panels some serious changes have been made to the preamp and power amp so there is no fender equivalent.

That said if you want to turn your BF fender into a marshall you can get reasonably close by running it through a closed celestion cab and using any of the vast variety of marshall style OD pedals - the tech 21 london for instance. It ain't gonna be exact but it will be close enough for rock and roll and the audience won't care one way or the other

[Justinvs]

I have a Fender BFSR and a Marshall G100. While the Marshall is SS, and thus in a sense a copy of an original, it does have more bottom and a different growl than my Fender with a TubeScreamer turned up. But, for the most part I agree with Ben Harmless and Fender Bender that while you may know the difference, the people dancing out front probably won't.

One pedal I was really impressed for getting a Marshall type sound out of Fender amp was a Behringer that uses an actual tube. I don't have one, but wish I did. Can't recall the model number of it, but for a cheap pedal it made a huge difference in sound.

Justin

[Donnie55]

Ok , I gotta agree with Ben most would not know the difference. And like I said, cranked it was it was pretty close. But thats all it did . The clean tone was gone because it started to break up around 3. But Ben is right,, I am probably the only one that knew the difference.

www.myspace.com/redtele2

[Faraldi]

Originally Posted by rangercaster

weren't Marshall's early designs influenced by Fender, if not copied ??? IIRC, the Bassman circuit was in question ...

Correct

[Yoni]

Originally Posted by Twang King

Beat me to it.

[muchxs]

I can get an absolutely authentic Marshall tone from just about any tube Fender.

Problem is getting a Fender tone from it when I'm done...

[brokenjoe]

The answer is a resounding NO.

The question is NOT whether anyone will know the difference; it's whether YOU will know.

I'm assuming that the person doing the comparison will know what a Marshall and Fender sounds like.

Furthermore, just because the early Marshalls were based upon the old Bassman schematic doesn't mean that they sound alike either. That's like asking whether a Champ sounds like a Twin.

Same ballpark, but different league.

[bargoedboy]

must disagree with you broken joe , i defy anyone to tell which is which from a recording or in a live setting blindfolded. most people cannot tell the difference between a strat and a gibson blindfolded let alone the amp , all we hear are what we percieve the sound to be. i can get a fender sound out of a marshall and vice versa.
i did this as an experiment once when i had a shop , got 4 guys (all been playing for years)to discuss 5 strats i had in shop which was an 80`s std, a squier JV a squier silver series , a 76 with maple neck and a tokai , after all playing and discussing the various merits of each i asked them to stand behind door so they could not see and a played guitar , not one person guessed i was playing a gibson nighthawk

[twangstick]

Keep the Fender amp on clean, and get the OLDER Marshall Guv'nor overdrive pedal.

[milracing]

Originally Posted by muchxs

I can get an absolutely authentic Marshall tone from just about any tube Fender.

Problem is getting a Fender tone from it when I'm done...

Awesome! That, was worh quoting.

[muchxs]

Originally Posted by rangercaster

Jim copied Leo's design, but substituted parts that he could find locally in England. By the time he made it to production, the amps had a similar circuit, but each had its own distinct sound.

And from there, both companies evolved in very different ways, so you can't really compare.

If you compare a 5F6A with a Marshall 2203 or 2204 the lineage might not be so obvious. Try playing a block logo JTM45 next to a tweed Bassman.

Marshall's early '60s JTM45 is a dead-on part for part rip of a '59-'60 Fender 5F6A Bassman. Marshall even tracked down a few sets of 5881 tubes before switching over to British made Genelex KT66s. The main difference is the output transformer, the minor differences is that Marshall used all 12AX7s on the preamp rather than the 12AY7 in the front end of the 5F6A, Marshalls used four Celestion 12"s rather than four Jensen 10"s. That's it. Use 12AX7s on the front of a tweed Bassman, swap the stock Triad OT (sacrilege!!) for a Radio Spares or an RS replica... you pretty much have a vintage Marshall. Plug into a couple vintage Celestions (two will do) and you're damn close.

By the BF era we get the mid-sucked reverb preamp, no cathode follower and a 12AT7 PI, all stuff that makes a '60s Fender a '60s Fender.

'60s Marshalls can trace their lineage straight back to '50s Fenders. There's even a tweed Bassman "hidden" inside '80s JCM800s.

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by bargoedboy

must disagree with you broken joe , i defy anyone to tell which is which from a recording or in a live setting blindfolded. most people cannot tell the difference between a strat and a gibson blindfolded let alone the amp , all we hear are what we percieve the sound to be. i can get a fender sound out of a marshall and vice versa.
i did this as an experiment once when i had a shop , got 4 guys (all been playing for years)to discuss 5 strats i had in shop which was an 80`s std, a squier JV a squier silver series , a 76 with maple neck and a tokai , after all playing and discussing the various merits of each i asked them to stand behind door so they could not see and a played guitar , not one person guessed i was playing a gibson nighthawk

I dunno. I can't speak for BroJoe or others, but I like to think that I can tell a cranked Fender from a cranked Marshall almost all of the time (live). Blindfolded or not. But which cranked Fender and which cranked Marshall? Just like I like to think I can tell a clean BF Fender from a clean Marshall almost all of the time. And I think I could/can, as long as the Marshall in the first example is set up for the iconic Marshall crunch and the BF Fender in the second is doing the glorious Fender clean thing (ie cranked Fender and Marshall are different, as are clean Fender and Marshall - all examples sound good to my ears, but they do sound different.).

But. ... Play with the controls so the amps aren't set for the iconic and possibly over-used sounds? Put them through the same cabs? And yeah, the differences may become vanishlingly small. Throw in a Supro or a HiWatt and I couldn't tell you it isn't a Marshall or a Fender. But if it really is between a Marshall or Fender, I honestly do think I can tell.

Live - most of us don't have the luxury of good sound. Honestly, it really doesn't matter that much what we use cuz any subtlety is going to be lost into the ether. I really believe this. If you need good clean sound, a bit of crunch, maybe something to lift the volume a bit for solos or whatever? My feeling is that just about anything decent will do. With a pedal if required.

Now, in the studio, it gets even more murky. I'm gonna make a confession here. Which is a bit difficult for me as a gear snob and amp cork sniffer (hey - I'm not a great player, I need all the help I can get). Electric guitars, amplified through an amp, pretty much sound alike. Ok, not alike. But, pretty freaking similar. Or can. Mostly. (And this doesn't even get into the chase the most recent "hot tone thing). Due to the room, engineer, recording methodology, player, etc etc. Oh, and those pesky controls amps sometimes come with.

Now, I'm saying this from a rock perspective and all the examples of folks saying - wow, I didn't know he recorded with X, sounds just like a Y into a Z.
LZ 1 with Page into a supro via a Tele, Frank Marino using an Sg into a solid state amp but accused of aping Hendrix, etc etc etc. Gretsches have their thing, but well Malcolm does another thing with his. (We all know Teles can do just about anything. But so can Lesters and 335s and ...)

But even when I say that, there's a few things that I really don't think can really be emulated. A Rick through a Vox? Again, a blindfold test might prove me wrong, but for the Rick through a Vox thing? I doubt it. The SRV Strat through a Super? I think I could tell if it were a Marhsall. Maybe not if it was a Dumble.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that differences between amps (especially once recorded) can be very subtle. Sometimes, but not always, undiscernable.

Cheers,
Geoff

[muchxs]

Originally Posted by CA_Dan

Anyone have a suggestion for getting decent switchable marshall tone out of a clean HRD or DRRI, using a stompbox or otherwise? I was toying with the idea of a switchable tone stack in the effects loop of my HRD. Thoughts?

Oh. It's specifics you want, eh?

I'd start with the DRRI. You could probably get there with the HRD too but those just aren't my cuppa tea.

Use the "normal" channel of the DRRI, lift the tone stack. Keep the signal path simple and direct, two gain stages straight at the PI and see what you get. A minor voicing change might make it more convincing.

Add a cathode follower after the two gain stages and you have Marshall-y architecture.

For absolutely uncontrollable laughter it's possible to mod the normal channel into three gain stages that's neither Fender nor Marshall, just plain fun...

[Jakeboy]

OD when cranked from 8-12....it really does.....course I have it pushing air through an Eminence Red Fang which is a British-voiced speaker.

It's different from my Marshall 18 Watter clone, but my brownface Deluxe sounds like a Marshall when dimed.

Clean, it's Fender but it starts tomorph around 6-7...

[1960 tele]

was done on a brown deluxe and that sounds like a cranked marshall to me

[jjkrause84]

First off I think people missed Joe's point that it doesn't matter if the whoe world won't know the difference...if the player notices then all is lost.

Also I very often find myself, unintentionally, identifying the guitar used in various music bits. Amp....no, not often (unless it is a Fender in which case I recognize the reverb).....but guitar definitely.

[holgaguy]

Originally Posted by jjkrause84

First off I think people missed Joe's point that it doesn't matter if the whoe world won't know the difference...if the player notices then all is lost.

I agree totally ... it's really up to the player and how the amp "feels." You can always fool your audience, even if it's full of guitar players.

[brokenjoe]

Ok.... There are many variables here. For starters, what Marshall are we talking about? Transistor? Bluesbreaker? 100w stack? Then, what Fender are we talking about? Cranked champ? Twin?

There are certain Marshalls that sound like Fenders, and vice-versa, but those aren't what I'd consider 'classic' Marshall or Fender tones.

Same with guitars. Gibson makes single coil pickup guitars, and Fender makes guitars w/humbuckers, but for the most part, those aren't the typical sounds that we think of when we think of either brands.

There are great sounds to be had out of a lot of these different varieties, but that's not what I mean.

Sure, you could get a Firebird through a Marshall to sound a lot like a Fender set up -and many have- and I myself, can get a fairly good approximation of Claptons Bluesbreaker tone with my tele through my heavily modified Pro. Jr., but it ain't the same.

If you want Marshall from a Fender, or the other way around, get a good EQ pedal and boost or remove those low mids, as the case may be.

[fender_bender]

Originally Posted by brokenjoe

Ok.... There are many variables here. For starters, what Marshall are we talking about? Transistor? Bluesbreaker? 100w stack? Then, what Fender are we talking about? Cranked champ? Twin?

There are certain Marshalls that sound like Fenders, and vice-versa, but those aren't what I'd consider 'classic' Marshall or Fender tones.

Same with guitars. Gibson makes single coil pickup guitars, and Fender makes guitars w/humbuckers, but for the most part, those aren't the typical sounds that we think of when we think of either brands.

There are great sounds to be had out of a lot of these different varieties, but that's not what I mean.

Sure, you could get a Firebird through a Marshall to sound a lot like a Fender set up -and many have- and I myself, can get a fairly good approximation of Claptons Bluesbreaker tone with my tele through my heavily modified Pro. Jr., but it ain't the same.

If you want Marshall from a Fender, or the other way around, get a good EQ pedal and boost or remove those low mids, as the case may be.

OK noone is talking about SS marshalls. IMO the Bluesbreaker and Tweed bassman are nearly identical amps with minor electrical changes and can imitate each other quite well by substituting the opposing cab.

I think we can all agree most guys want to know if there is a way to go from BF fender clean to NMV Marshall plexi or MV/JCM 800 type crunch tones.

In my experience the answer is not exactly but you can get close enough for rock and roll by using appropriate pedals and speakers/cabs.

For instance I had a '68 bassman that I ran through a marshall 4x10 closed cab with a rat, barber DD, tonebone britsh, etc. With this rig I could go from sparkly fender tones to reasonable marshall-esque crunch and it sounded great both ways. I also had a '78 deluxe with a celestion gh12-30 speaker. That speaker was a great fit because it has smooth highs, big tight bass and more mids all of which are problem areas with the deluxe using a standard jensen or comparable american style speaker. Was I going to fool anyone with a great love for real marshall crunch by using a Fender with pedals and celestion speakers? No but the drive sounded great and the authentic chimey fender clean tone was more important to me as a base tone than having an accurate marshall crunch. IMO you can crunch up that fender clean tone in many great ways but the Marshall will never do clean like a fender and is thus much more of a one trick pony.

[jefcon1]

With Celestion G12s in My Twin II, using a Mesa Boogie V-twin, a graphic EQ and my SG I could get a sound that to my ears sounded like a Marshall, but not exactly.

Interestingly, using an Ibanez Metal Charger through my Peavey Special 130 into 2 1x12 Marshall cabinets I can get the exact sound of a Line 6 modeling a 5150. Its uncanny.

[bargoedboy]

well the big problem here is the wording "is it possible to get marshall from a fender"? and i think yes is the only answer, as who can say exactly which marshall sound is the marshall sound ?
plexi 50w does not sound like a jcm900 which does not sound like a marshall haze which does not sound like a major 200w
even the split channel jcm800 does not sound like the master volume jcm800
but we can all get a similar marshall sounding tone out of a fender amp with an od pedal.
lets confuse it even further the vox AC30 had a tone control yet who with a strat had the vox sound rory gallagher or hank marvin? and more importantly who actually has "THE" marshall sound and with what guitar ?

[Buddaman]

EL 34 power tubes and Marshall trannys just have that upper mid snarl and krangg that I have never experienced with Fender or Boogie-style 6L6 output stages...

[brokenjoe]

Originally Posted by bargoedboy

and more importantly who actually has "THE" marshall sound and with what guitar ?

Yup.

Angus young? Jimi Hendrix? Eric Clapton? Richie Blackmore? Eddie Van Halen?

All distinctly different tones.

Same with Fender. Who has the "THE" Fender sound?

Roy Buchanan? Ted Nugent? Early B.B. King? Jerry Reed? Eric Clapton -again?

[brokenjoe]

Originally Posted by Buddaman

EL 34 power tubes and Marshall trannys just have that upper mid snarl and krangg that I have never experienced with Fender or Boogie-style 6L6 output stages...

You, my friend, need to some day play through an old Traynor MKIII. A twin style amp with 4X EL-34s. It's an uncanny combination of Fender clarity, and Marshall crunch!