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#41 (permalink) | |
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Friend of Leo's
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cleveland,OH But my heart's still in TX
Posts: 4,574
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT bashing tube amps. I still own several, and I fully believe they totally have their place and in certain applications, I will still use them. But for me, 90% of the time, they don't get the job done as well (for me) as what I use. Tone is subjective, and what any given guitarist wants to hear coming out of his or her amp is their business. I hear people get smokin' killer tones out of all kinds of tube amps, tones I very much enjoy listening to. They just aren't the tones I want to hear when I play. I want to sound like me, and "me" doesn't sag, doesn't break up, and doesn't compress unless I turn on my compressor. For some reason, every time I post about this stuff, tube people get uptight and defensive. Please don't take it that way. Tube amps are great, and I don't bag on them. I'm just a realist, and for real, they are not capable of doing what I want. Nothing wrong with that, lots of people can't get tones they want out of SS amps. That doesn't mean it's a bad amp, it just means it won't do what they want, and that's ok. We're all free to play what we please.
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It's not that I lack focus, it's just that I'm musically schizophrenic... |
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#42 (permalink) | |
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Poster Extraordinaire
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,107
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Quote:
__________________
"I like a tune. I like a tune and a singer and a solo, and now more of the tune."--Ian McLagan http://www.myspace.com/travishartnett Pearce Amps Info Page |
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#45 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Afflicted
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,968
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Quote:
Don't know why any one would get a chuckle out of it there has been more peavey gear on pro stages then you can shake a stick at. |
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#46 (permalink) |
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TDPRI Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 84
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Getting back to the original question...
Here's a low-tech, low-cost option. Fender Frontman 25 watt 10-inch speaker. Costs around $100-$150 depending where you buy it. Traditional Fender 3-tone-control setup, acceptable spring reverb. The clean channel sounds very much like a Fender. If you like the traditional Fender clean sound, this amp reproduces it very faithfully. The distortion channel, to my ears, sounds like cheap solid state, fizzy, not warm, not tubey, not pleasant. I use a Danelectro Transparent Overdrive instead. Substitute whatever overdrive pedal you prefer. Or you may love the distortion channel just as it is. Popular speaker replacements include Eminence Ragin' Cajun, Webers, etc. If you go the Ragin' Cajun route you'll get WAY louder. Cost is between $65-$100 depending where you buy. But the stock speaker is absolutely useable. Just depends on your taste in speakers and whether you want LOUDER. So for $200 (tops... probably less) you can have a terrific sounding (clean channel only) traditional Fender sound in a lightweight SS package that's loud as all get-out (with Ragin' Cajun speaker replacement). It's not meant to compete with a tube amp, or any other SS amp for that matter. It isn't better or worse than any other amp. It's a sound you either like or don't. Just like any tube amp you might suggest produces a sound you either like or don't. I like traditional Fender-voiced amps. The inexpensive SS 25-watt 10" speaker Frontman nails it. If you like that sound, go listen to one and decide for yourself whether it works for you. It may or may not. But it meets your requirements: inexpensive, 10" speaker, loud (especially with Ragin' Cajun) and toneful (provided you're after the traditional Fender sound to begin with). |
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#47 (permalink) |
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Tele-Afflicted
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA
Posts: 1,159
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When I first started electric guitar, I fooled around with a Polytone amp. I liked rock and didn't much like this amp. But many said, at the time, that it was "the" jazz amp to get. Joe Pass used one as well as many others. Now, 30 years later and being into jazz, I wish I had bought one of those. I can't find old Polytones, and when they do come up in the paper or the net, they are completely out of reach. Same with the Ibanez Tube Screamer and the 'mint, post CBS '65 strat at the antique store.
Closed minds who were rockers dissed Polytone (and early Ibanez effects, post CBS Fenders) regret it now. One friend of mine who loved rock and jazz equally thought the Polytone was the one to get. Every small amp I have heard since then pales in comparison for jazz, but the closest I have heard is the Roland Cube, but still miles away. That being said, one of my teachers played a few gigs I have seen with a Fender Frontline 25, a relatively cheap amp, and he sounded great. Of course, he's an amazing player and could sound good with any amp. |
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#48 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Afflicted
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,968
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#49 (permalink) | |
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Poster Extraordinaire
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,107
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Quote:
__________________
"I like a tune. I like a tune and a singer and a solo, and now more of the tune."--Ian McLagan http://www.myspace.com/travishartnett Pearce Amps Info Page |
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#50 (permalink) |
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Poster Extraordinaire
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,107
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It depends on the band. I gigged for several years with a 30W SS amp. I don't think that extra 5W was the key.
__________________
"I like a tune. I like a tune and a singer and a solo, and now more of the tune."--Ian McLagan http://www.myspace.com/travishartnett Pearce Amps Info Page |
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#52 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Afflicted
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA
Posts: 1,159
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Quote:
For my punk band, I use 50 watts at least, but when I was in a Brit-pop band, a 30 w. tube/transistor Crate amp with 10" inch speaker did the job with my old tele and melody maker. We very rarely turned it up and focused more on vocal harmonies and if we cranked up the instruments too much over our small 150 w. PA, we wouldn't be able to hear ourselves sing. I think if the drummer lays off a bit, the bass player, keyboard, and guitar players can all work down the volume to where 25 and 30 watt amps for guitar amps are suitable. I have seen my share of bands with 100 watts for a guitarists, and more for a bassist, too much volume all around, and just pure tone deaf singing since nobody could hear anybody else in relation to the closest blaring amp on stage. Often out in the crowd the guitar and bass amps become so loud that the drums are pretty much drowned out. At that volume, it's just a shame. |
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#53 (permalink) |
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Tele-Afflicted
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Peoria, AZ
Posts: 1,425
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To the original question of what do you get for the extra money for the boutique SS amp. You get essentially what you get with more money for boutique tube amps. What you are supposed to get is more thought in the circuit topology, and someone who has some musical background designing an instrument, as opposed to an appliance. But, you might just get hype in some cases. Caveat emptor.
What we have to remember is that the amplifier is part of our instrument. Why so many people like tube amps is the "sound" of the amp. That is, the non-linearities in the amplification. Or, from the engineer's perspective, the various distortions. The holy grail of most amplifier engineers is the "straight wire with gain" That is pure gain, no distortion. All feedback mechanisms that are there to help kill distortion, in the end also add other distortions. Leo, Jim Marshall and in particular, Dave Reeves (of Hiwatt) all were trying to develop high power amplifiers, and all tried to tame distortion. However, the fact of the matter was that tubes did distort a bit, and that is the sound we all think of as guitar amp tone. Early solid state, run within limits, pretty much had an order of magnitude less distortion (particularly harmonic distortion) than did tube amps of the day. Because the normal even order harmonics from tube distortions were not part of the signal, most saw the sound as dry. Also, when run out of limits, the actually wave forms were so much different that they sounded harsh. Some styles liked that, but early bi-polar transistor amps did have really harsh distortion. In addition, at the time, rating was set at the power where 3% clipping occurred (if memory serves). With tubes, you still had rounded wave tops, and a bunch more current carrying capacity left with a musical, albeit distorted, sound. With bipolar transistors, 3% distortion was essentially where the current carrying capability stopped. Hence the myth of "tube watts are bigger than SS watts". It was just that if you had a 50 watt tube amp (50 watts at 3% distortion) you might be able to get something like 75 watts at 50% distortion. However, if you had a 50 watt SS amp at 3%, you got like 55 watts at 50%. Just the nature of the amplifying device. Later devices, like FETs, distort more like tubes, so a lot of that goes away in some of the modern amps. So, some of the later amps actually allow for some musical non-linearities in the amplification, so it is a more musical sound. I'm not sure about class D amps, and how they handle this (because they actually develop a digital signal, and run that through filters to make a sine wave). However, with amps like the Prichard, they are using mosfets to get a more tube like sound, and still have the convenience of SS. |
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#54 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Afflicted
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,968
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#55 (permalink) |
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TDPRI Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida USA
Age: 53
Posts: 12
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Anyone tried one of these?
http://www.lunchboxamp.com/ |
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#56 (permalink) | |
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TDPRI Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 60
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Quote:
Based on my experience and some of the other comments above - any top end Roland with an effects loop will give you pretty much anything you need. Distortion sucks in these - hence the Tubeman - everything else is pure gold.
__________________
My name is Nicholas and I have a GAS problem! |
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#57 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Afflicted
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA
Posts: 1,159
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Quote:
When we got a 250 w. bass amp with speaker, 8x12" Marshall, the 150 w. PA got very small. But we did borrow a 1,500-2,000 w. pro system once, 48 channels, etc but that was only while we had a pro soundman in the band. :) |
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#58 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Meister
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Boston
Posts: 483
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Quote:
The point was: all this fussing we do about tubes this, boutique that, and nobody noticed that I was playing a cheap solid state amp instead of my "cooler" tube amps. Also, I really like that once it's set, you don't have to keep fiddling with the knobs. Just turn the master up or down, it sounds the same! Now I'm off to find a lighter speaker for it, that bugger is heavy! |
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#59 (permalink) |
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TDPRI Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Naperville, IL
Age: 40
Posts: 18
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I'm not trying to be disingenuous, but are well constructed SS amps able to be fixed when something goes bad? I think when anyone buys a boutique amp, it's in the hope of nailing some particular sound better than any other, and it's something the buyer probably intends to potentially work hard and keep forever. It was a strong selling point when I got my boutique tube amps - these ones are very serviceable. I don't doubt that there are techniques to ruggedize an amp.
I expect to hear that sure - it ultimately comes down to finding the bad component(s) and replacing them. But a friend of mine repairs electronic equipment full time and he turned down a request to fix another friends broken Fender Vibrasonic and Roland JC-120, saying that the value of the amp wouldn't justify the cost of analysis and repair. I can imagine how the analysis could get tricky. Have any of you tried to service a SS amp? If this is too much of a tangent let me know and I'll start a separate thread. |
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#60 (permalink) |
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TDPRI Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Melburn, Aust
Age: 22
Posts: 13
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I have an old Roland Cube 20 from the late 70's early 80's.
It is amazing, 20 real mans watts, it's loud, nice clean tone, and the spring reverb is usable. If you can find one, buy it and never let it go. I use it for my synthesizers as well. It's too useful. |
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#61 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Meister
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 150
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Quote:
__________________
www.mosayk.ca |
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#62 (permalink) | |
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Poster Extraordinaire
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,107
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Quote:
__________________
"I like a tune. I like a tune and a singer and a solo, and now more of the tune."--Ian McLagan http://www.myspace.com/travishartnett Pearce Amps Info Page |
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#63 (permalink) | |
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Friend of Leo's
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cleveland,OH But my heart's still in TX
Posts: 4,574
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Quote:
Boutique tube amps with PTP or tagboard circuitry are extremely easy to work on, and quick too. Less labor intensive than a PCB tube or SS amp in almost every way. Not all, but many people who get themselves a rep as a high-end amp tech, get there because these amps are so incredibly repairable and easy to work on. They poo-poo the other stuff, because seriously, they have no idea what to do with it, and really don't have a clue whether it's fixable or not, because they have no idea what to do with that kind of a circuit. But they won't tell you that, because it could make them look bad. In the end, I've never owned a tube amp that didn't go to the shop at least once in the time I owned it for maintenence or repair. I can't remember the last time one of my SS amps needed anything, or went down. I'm racking my head, but I just can't think of anything breaking in recent times. And when it does, it's always something simple. An input jack here, a switch replaced there, nothing big. so there's something to be said for that too...
__________________
It's not that I lack focus, it's just that I'm musically schizophrenic... |
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#64 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Meister
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Age: 52
Posts: 168
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Quote:
I got rid of my JC and I regret it. I too followed the tube dragon, but I will soon have another JC and this time it wont get away. Anyhow, I guess you can see what my vote is. You want a great SS amp look know further than the king of all SS amps.
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Gear: 89 Fender Strat Plus Deluxe (Dimarzio Area 58/67/61), Fender AS Tele, Gibson GA40RVT, HR Deville 4X10, JC-120, Valve Sr. Fulldrive II mosfet, Memory Boy. |
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#65 (permalink) |
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Tele-Meister
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Basingstoke (BAzingstoke), Hampshire, UK
Posts: 398
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You just haven't tried a decent solid state amp yet... that's obvious! But maybe you mean that 25 watts is not enough power regardless of the technology producing it. Whatevr, there are still popular misconceptions about SS vs Tube amps in the loudness department.
The actual power of the SS amp, assumining the quoted power is what the manufacturer says it is... which is more often NOT the case, is not the important factor in gauging loudness. It is the efficiency of the speaker and sadly, because of general player perceptions of SS amps, most are equipped with downright awful speakers shoved into tiny cabinets! Watt for watt, both tube and tranny amps are identical! Power is measured V²/R or VI or I²R. Neither technology can make a different watt - fact! Due to tube amps being 'constant current' drivers of the speaker, this means the speaker is not tightly coupled to the OP transformer (OPTX). So, therefore, the speaker when driven hard will travel a further distance back an forth for a given power input due to enertia. This is 'cone overshoot', is purely mechanical and NOTHING to do with the tubes. This can give the illusion that the amp is producing more power, when in fact it IS moving more air by the simple fact that it 'suffers' with 'cone overshoot distortions'. This makes the amp sound louder depending on the output impedance of the OPTX. So, in a nutshell, tube amps can sound louder watt for watt. However, modern decent tranny amps are now mailny designed with constant current output stages too, so the output impedance is raised and the speaker is allowed to behave just like a tube amp with an OPTX. So, these new breed SS amps are just as loud as similarly rated tube amps and suffer the same distortion traits. If you are referring to old design and really cheap naff SS amps, then you are not comparing like for like. Some SS amp manufacturers overrate their power output! For example, the mid 1990's Marshall 8040 Valvestate amp is quoted as being 40 watts RMS. Put it on a test rig and you find the power to be only 28 watts RMS. This coupled with the cheap Celestion 94dB speaker factory fitted results in an amp that can be barely hear over a drummer and other instruments. So, when it comes to cheaper SS amps, DON'T believe the power rating written on it!! I regularly gig with a 20W (confirmed) SS amp fitted with a premium Celestion 'Gold' 8 ohm 100dB (50 watt version of the Vox Blue) and it is plenty loud enough to see off a Blues Jnr on stage! Modern SS amps are fuller toned with a bright 'sprangly' edge to the tone... just like a tube amp. But some are now allowed to be over-bright because the designers have not realised that tube amps attenuate the extreme lows and highs in the power amp/OPTX when driven at high power. But, this is simple to rectify once they get around to realising what's wrong with their designs! A few of the top SS amps have this very much sorted now... including my own! Oh, the joy of peeing against the wind and making SS stuff work better for guitar!! You see, ANYONE can make a decent valve amp... SS ain't anywhere so easy. I hope you find this of interest.
__________________
Stew http://www.myspace.com/award_session "The price of fame, is being bored by those who used to scorn us." - Emily Pankhurst
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#66 (permalink) | |
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Tele-Meister
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Basingstoke (BAzingstoke), Hampshire, UK
Posts: 398
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Quote:
If it is not replaceable, then that amp is worth the money the performer will earn using it over their carear liftime! Most SS amps are easy to repair. He didn't want to repair them because he probably does not have sufficient knowledge to do it well. That's usually the reason I find! Most 'valve tappers', as we refer to them in the UK, call themselves electronics engineers... but the ain't, that's for sure!
__________________
Stew http://www.myspace.com/award_session "The price of fame, is being bored by those who used to scorn us." - Emily Pankhurst
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#67 (permalink) |
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NEW MEMBER!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Argentina
Posts: 1
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Hi Stewart, nice to read you, straightening the truth as usual.
Fact is , tube amps are "easy" ¿¿?? for the untrained because , to begin with, they use all the same couple basic schematics fried and refried 1000 times since the 50's. How many different gain blocks can you make with a 12AX7? And when somebody makes something good sounding, 1000000 "designers" copy them to death, varying only very minor details. When servicing, it also helps a lot that they are usually AC (capacitive) coupled, which means a "bad" stage can quickly be found just with basic multimeter skills. But an SS one, with the immense variety that exists and the usually direct coupled stages, demands quite a lot of theoretical knowledge, backed by experience. |
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