Frontman 212R in relation to the Twin Reverb RI

[Lerb21]

I have the following question for you folks who know what you're talking about...

1. Can one attain a Twinish sound with a Frontman?
2. Can the Frontman attain it's full 100 watts without distorting or breaking up?
3. How heavy is the Frontman? Compared to a Twin?
4. Is the Frontman worth the $300 pricetag?

I've always wanted an amp that sounds like My Twin without having to worry about tubes and all that nonsense. It would really help ease my conscience when gigging.

Oh and if anyone has any idea where to find a Twin Solid State Clone, please, I beg you, tell me.

Thanks.

[Southpaw Tele]

There's a solid state twin on Ebay right now.

[jh45gun]

Lerb I gigged with a 68 or 69 Super Reverb I bought used in 1970 it was a Silverface and like new. I gigged with that amp for over twenty years with not one issue it never failed and finally I had new 6l6's put in it. I got rid of it in the early 90's for a Peavey Classic Chorus which I gigged with for over ten years. I now wish I would have never gotten rid of the Super Reverb and just fixed it up instead of getting the Peavey even though the Peavey was a nice amp. (I had wanted a amp with effects like distortion and Chorus I should have just bought a pedal) My point is Tube amps ARE DEPENDABLE. sure they may need maintenence once in a while but they are easier to work on then transistorized stuff and that stuff breaks down too. However a back up amp is nice to have but I would use the Twin and find used SS amp for a back up if that makes ya feel better.

[Tim Armstrong]

Clint, listen to the man!

The only thing I'd add is that, while a Twin is a great amp, I find a Princeton Reverb and a good mic do a great job too...

Tim

[Lerb21]

Guys,

I've already had a load of troubles with my Twin, including broken tubes and fried boards, and the thing still sounds a bit funny after the repairs. I haven't even owned it for a year yet.

I love the amp, but I don't trust it. I want something reliable that sounds something like the Twin but doesn't cost an arm and a leg to back it up.

[trag-o-caster]

Wow, you should really have it gone over and see what's wrong with it then. I'd put the money towards that as opposed to getting another amp.

Once you have them up and running, you have a friend for life.

[strat a various]

Some amps are just haunted. You fix them and fix them, and they're never right. Though I use SF Twin now, I went for years in the early 80s with SS Peaveys and other SS amps. They can sound great. Fender, Peavey, Dean Markley, all made good SS amps, I like the older ones from the 80s. Randall, too. Some of their older stuff sounds great. I find these old amps at pawn shops and on C-list.

[Tim Armstrong]

You have a TRRI, right? Ought be fairly dependable, but they aren't as bulletproof as the sf and bf Twins...

Tim

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by strat a various

Some amps are just haunted. You fix them and fix them, and they're never right.

This is dead on. I love SS amps, and it's all I use nowadays. But I love tube amps too. I will not sit here and say they are un-reliable, as I don't believe that's true. There are too many 40 and 50 year old tube amps still being gigged for me to feel comfortable with that statement. That said, I had a Fender "Twin Amp" commonly called the "Evil Twin", and let me tell you, it was evil.

I had that thing repaired so many times in the three years I had it, I can't even describe it. And it was never right. Several different shops and techs, all kinds of parts replaced, but the time I got rid of it, it didn't have a single original component, and it still wasn't right. Some of them are just "haunted".

If you really wanna go SS, I would suggest Peavey over the frontman. A Stereo Chorus 212 would get you right where you wanna be. Also, I am currently using a Carvin SX200. Not everybody's cup o' joe, but I love it. IMO a MUCHO better amp than the frontman, for $299 brand new. It's also feather light. Under 40 pounds for a 100 Watt 2X12.

For country guitar, the older (from the early-mid 90's) Crate GX 130C is a pretty underrated amp. A little colder sounding than the others though. It's more a Jazz Chorus, just ultra ultra clean.

I love solid state amps if they're good ones. My Carvin is the best I've had. It doesn't have as much volume as the 260 watt Peavey Stereo Chorus, but it sounds more organic to my ears, and truthfully, I have never needed the volume that the Peavey is capable of. The attack and punch on the Carvin is excellent as well. Lots of pop and snap for that country stuff we like.

[Wally]

Lerb, if you are going to let your experiences with one TRRI and some bad tech work put you off on tube amps, maybe you deserve SS sonics???? (;^) Just kidding, but with a bit of truth in it.
Broken tubes? Tube retainer springs cure that. Yes, Fender should put them on every amp they sell, but they don't. Burned up PCB's? That is only one reason why a vintage handwired is superior to the PCB Reissue Fenders.
FWIW. there is no SS amp that recreates tube sonics. THe hype has been going on for almost 50 years now, and there is no more truth in 'tube sonics from SS circuits' today than there was in the '60's. IF you want tube soncis, you have to get a tube amp. IF you get a tube amp, you have to pay attention to some basic rules in order to avoid burned up PCB boards, burned out transformers, broken tubes....whatever.
IT is just like a car. IF you don't learn the basic maintenance needs, the car won't last very long. You are young, and you have a lot of time to devote to learning things. The learning never ends, by the way.
IF tube amps were unreliable, there would not be so many vintage tube amps still kicking out the tunes after 30,40,50, 60, and in some cases 70 years. Yessir, there are some Gibson tube amps from the 30's still working. I have a '49 Gibson sitting here working fine. The '52 Pro that is waiting for a retweed will once again be a magnificent amp after the cab is ready for the amp to go back together.
FWIW, ten years ago I worked on a Fender SS amp for which Fender no longer had parts.....and the amp was less than 10 years old at that time. REd knob TWin???? I fixed one of those. IT had some broken pots (shafts and switching mechanisms). After 6 months of waiting to see if a particular switching pot would come in, I broke down a new push/pull pot (That didint' match the specs of the original pot) jsut to get the switch parts out of it to fix the one out of the amp. IN the beginning, the fellow has asked me how long it would take...thinking out loud that since it was a newer Fender it would be easier to get parts for it. I laughed and told him that if he had one of the old handwired Fender TWins, I would have it for him the next day. Those 6 months were a long wait for him...and me.
Reliability? I had a call from the local GC one time. They were looking for someone to do warranty work on amps. Which amps? The most 'modern' ones....digital modeling amps.....they were inundated with the problems.
I am going to think that you have had a bad experience with an amp. Some tubes dropped out. You may have run the amp with the tubes not in the sockets, and the board may have succumbed to the stress of that situation. You have had some tech work done by someone who was not concientious in their work. PErhaps they don't even know what a properly set-up TR should sound like. Give up ontube amps if you want, but if yo uendeaver to perservere and learn, you will be rewarded with golden tube soncis while you paly your guitar. NOthing beats a good tube amp for sound. NOthing.
I ahve a tube stereo amp sitting here that I play CD's through. PEople are amazed at the musicality of CD's played through thos tubes. IT is not an imaginary thing. Tubes create musical harmonics that are pleasing to the human ear. IF your TRRI doesn't sound good, then it has not met the correct tech.

[Twang King]

Originally Posted by Lerb21

Guys,

I've already had a load of troubles with my Twin, including broken tubes and fried boards, and the thing still sounds a bit funny after the repairs. I haven't even owned it for a year yet.

I love the amp, but I don't trust it. I want something reliable that sounds something like the Twin but doesn't cost an arm and a leg to back it up.

is it a reissue?

[jh45gun]

Lerb if it is a reissue trade it in on a Vintage Twin that is working. Put it this way if I had a Fender with PC boards that were giving me trouble I sure would not run out and buy one that is all PC.

[Wally]

There is really nothing about the Reissue PCB amps and the PRo SEries PCB amps that give me any qualms. They are some of the better PCB amps out there in thier price range. The control PCB is separate from the main board. All of the tube sockets are chassis mounted. The 'regular' production FEnders are not of this quality, and they give me pause for that reason.
In Lerb's situation, I am going to think that there are some new user errors and foreseeable problems compounded by poor tech work, and that these have resulted in a very disappointed young player. IF one does go for a vintage tube amp, be aware that 'working' is not the final estimation of functionality. These vintage amps need service. Just 'working' will tell one that the transformers are strong and fit if one knows how to listen to the amp.
Just 'working' does not guarantee that the caps are healthy. It takes an experienced ear to hear that. Take it for granted that if a vintage amp has not been properly and recently serviced that one is going to spend some money on it....and buy it accordingly. Don't give top dollar for an amp that needs $200-300 worth of work to be 'working' properly and yielding good sonics.

[Lerb21]

The amp is a 2006 TRRI. After it blew a fuse and kept buzzing I took it to my amp tech who did a full diagnostic and fixed the broken tubes and fried board.

I under stand that tubes sound better than solid state amps. Something about the electronic surviving in tubes but not solid state or some such.

The thing is that Tube amp cost a lot of money, even to buy, plus whatever it costs to fix. Cost me $150 to fix that amp.

I'm looking for something as a back up. I need it to be loud, clean, and inexpensive. That rules out tubes, if not almost all solid state amps.

I can't find any Twin Reverb clones, so I asked about the Frontman.

[trag-o-caster]

Well the way I look at it...... never mind the "tube tone" thing......

If a tube amp goes down on a gig, it's usually a matter of either replacing one of the pre-amp tubes (I keep spares in the ashtray of my car), or replacing all of the output tubes. It's a quick, easy fix, and then you're back in action. It's rare that something else goes that needs a technician on a tube amp. If you have a fuse that blows repeatedly, sometimes that's remedied with an output tube change (all of them). Pre-amp tubes rarely go bad, and when they do, you just change the one tube, not all of them.

And if there's a time when the amp TOTALLY fails, and I'm left standing there facing an audience with no sound coming out of my amp, I just plug into my Morley/Award JD-10, turn on the speaker simulation, and go straight to the PA. Sounds great. It's the ultimate secret weapon. "Spare amp in a can" I call it.

[Roli]

Get a Roland JC-120. I know you like bright tone, so you'll love it.

Check out these sound samples, there are G&L ASAT country samples on this page through the Roland: http://www.superpage.com/riffs/desc_roland.html

[RomanS]

The Frontman 212R is one of the worst amps I ever played, really harsh, cold, ice-picky (and I'm not only comparing it to tube amps - there are lots of solid state amps that sound better - eg. the Hugehse & Kettner Attax series amps).

How much is the Kustom Defender where you live? It has a very BF Fender-ish clean sound, doesn't weigh a lot for a 50W 1x12" tube combo, and mine has been very reliable (but I've only had it for a little over a year).

[openbar]

Originally Posted by Wally

Lerb, if you are going to let your experiences with one TRRI and some bad tech work put you off on tube amps, maybe you deserve SS sonics????

With a statement like that, no need to read a word you wrote after that.

[jh45gun]

Here we go again

[JayFreddy]

Lerb, Check out the Peavey Session Series. Due to the 15" speaker, lots of people think they were made for bass.

They were originally made for pedal steel, but they sound great for Tele too. Redd V uses one... The older Peavey Session amps are extremely durable and very affordable.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno...n_400page.html

Seriously, if Redd uses one when he could be using any number of vintage tube amps, you can bet there is a good reason why...

Just keep in mind that with the older Sessions, the same stuff that Wally mentions with regard to older tube amps comes into play.

The Session 400 gets better reviews, but I think the Session 500 sounds just as good. The 500 was intended to be an upgrade to the 400, with more power...

I got my '81 Session 500 for $120 on Craigslist... Found a used '85 Session LTD for $240 at GC. Make sure it comes with the original Black Widow speaker. At those prices you can afford to get extras...

Neither of my Sessions have needed any work so far (knock on wood) but I'm thinking the 500 could use a cap job. It hisses a bit more than it used to, but it's still not bad. The total cost for the repair is about $140 local.

The Peavey 212 Stereo Chorus amps others have mentioned are also very good, as are the Yamaha G100ii and G100iii 212's.

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/r...0-212-III/10/1

Any of those amps are good enough to get you to the Grand Old Opry, IMHO. Once you've made it that far, you'll be in a much better position to start collecting vintage amplifiers in earnest!

[jh45gun]

I had a session 500 good amp.

[Lerb21]

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

Lerb, Check out the Peavey Session Series. Due to the 15" speaker, lots of people think they were made for bass.

They were originally made for pedal steel, but they sound great for Tele too. Redd V uses one... The older Peavey Session amps are extremely durable and very affordable.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno...n_400page.html

Seriously, if Redd uses one when he could be using any number of vintage tube amps, you can bet there is a good reason why...

Just keep in mind that with the older Sessions, the same stuff that Wally mentions with regard to older tube amps comes into play.

The Session 400 gets better reviews, but I think the Session 500 sounds just as good. The 500 was intended to be an upgrade to the 400, with more power...

I got my '81 Session 500 for $120 on Craigslist... Found a used '85 Session LTD for $240 at GC. Make sure it comes with the original Black Widow speaker. At those prices you can afford to get extras...

Neither of my Sessions have needed any work so far (knock on wood) but I'm thinking the 500 could use a cap job. It hisses a bit more than it used to, but it's still not bad. The total cost for the repair is about $140 local.

The Peavey 212 Stereo Chorus amps others have mentioned are also very good, as are the Yamaha G100ii and G100iii 212's.

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/r...0-212-III/10/1

Any of those amps are good enough to get you to the Grand Old Opry, IMHO. Once you've made it that far, you'll be in a much better position to start collecting vintage amplifiers in earnest!

Those Peavey session amps look EXACTLY what I'm searching for. I need an amp that can handle my Pedal Steel and Bass, yet provide excellent tone, and those look like they'll do the trick.

And they're solid state? wow

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by Lerb21

Those Peavey session amps look EXACTLY what I'm searching for. I need an amp that can handle my Pedal Steel and Bass, yet provide excellent tone, and those look like they'll do the trick.

And they're solid state? wow

I loaned my Peavey Stereo Chorus 212 to Fred Newell one night, he didn't have any complaints.

[garytelecastor]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

Clint, listen to the man!

The only thing I'd add is that, while a Twin is a great amp, I find a Princeton Reverb and a good mic do a great job too...

Tim

Uh....who's Clint?????
Tim, have you been taking your meds???
You know the doctor says you need to take your meds.

[garytelecastor]

Originally Posted by RomanS

The Frontman 212R is one of the worst amps I ever played, really harsh, cold, ice-picky (and I'm not only comparing it to tube amps - there are lots of solid state amps that sound better - eg. the Hugehse & Kettner Attax series amps).

+1

[Lerb21]

Originally Posted by garytelecastor

Uh....who's Clint?????
Tim, have you been taking your meds???
You know the doctor says you need to take your meds.

That would be me Gary...

What up?

[trag-o-caster]

Originally Posted by Lerb21

Those Peavey session amps look EXACTLY what I'm searching for. I need an amp that can handle my Pedal Steel and Bass, yet provide excellent tone, and those look like they'll do the trick.

And they're solid state? wow

Ummm, you've not been playing bass through that TRRI have you?

[Roli]

LOL. RIP speakers.

.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by openbar

With a statement like that, no need to read a word you wrote after that.

Openbar, if you didn't see the self-created emoticon and 'Just kidding' immediately following that admittedly rather direct statement, then you did miss the point of my post....whether you read on or not.
IF you did read all of that first posting of mine and my second post in this thread, you will realize that I offered some good observations and advice.....admittedly just my opinions form long experience. Lerb is fresh on what I hope is a long path searching for and enjoying musical expression.
I think he has had a rough start with this TRRI. I am going to guess that he bought it used. I am going to guess that whoever had it before very likely abused it....neglected to keep good tubes and to maintain the bias setting.
From my experience, buying a used amp and playing it until something goes wrong is a bad choice. Every used amp should be checked before putting much playing time on it. One needs to know what the condition of the amp and its components are. IT is analogous to making a long trip in a car without assuring that the oil is fresh and up to the proper level, there is water in the cooling system, the tires are good with proper pressure, the transmission has proper fluid levels, the brakes are good.....you can see my point. When a 'compromised' amp with unkown operating conditions is put to the job, soemtimtes things take a bad turn....a power tube fails, the components on the board burn down under the stress....who knows. So, then you have to spend a lot of money 'maintaining' it. Relative to the musciality of tubes, my experience is that there is no option. SS doesn't do it. I have seen too many tube amps function year and year making money for musicians to think that 'tube amps' are unreliable and expensive.

Lerb, if you want the closest thing to a Twin REverb in a solid state format, find a Lab SERies L5 and learn how to twiddle the compression and Multifilter sections. IT is the closest thing to a TR that I have heard in a SS format. B.B. King prefers them. You should be able to get one for $300 give or take.

RE: The inestimable REdd V. and the PEavey. I love REdd's playing. I don't like to hear him through that Peavey nearly as much as I enjoyed hearing him through that old TWeed FEnder. World of difference for my ears. Great player regardless of the amp and a gentleman, indeed.

[Tim Armstrong]

About 25 years ago, I "borrowed" my brother's Peavey Session 400 and used it to play bass for a band practice.

I had to buy him a new 15" Black Widow to replace the one I blew!

Just sayin'....

Tim

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

About 25 years ago, I "borrowed" my brother's Peavey Session 400 and used it to play bass for a band practice.

I had to buy him a new 15" Black Widow to replace the one I blew!

Just sayin'....

Tim

There you go! A little abuse and neglect go a long way to creating problems that cost money, right, Tim?

[Jakedog]

Had to chime in again here-

I had the distinct displeasure of playing through a Frontman 212 last night. I went to a Jam Night an old friend of mine hosts. The "jam" amp was an FM212. Did it get the job done? Sure. Was it loud? More than enough. Would I want to own one? Not in a million years. Tell you what, the host guitarist was playing through a Fender Super-Sonic, which is one of my least favorite amps ever. Harsh, brittle, whacky sounding amp to my ears. It sounded like a chorus of horny angels next to that Frontman. The FM212 sounds EXACTLY like a Frontman 15, but way louder. Not good. It's amps like that, that give people opnions like Wally has about solid state amps.

For the same price, Carvin sells my SX200 brand new. I got my Stereo Chorus 212 for $189 OTD. No way the FM is even close to the same class as these amps. There is no comparison.

[Lerb21]

Originally Posted by trag-o-caster

Ummm, you've not been playing bass through that TRRI have you?

No I understand that 12" speakers work only for guitar.

[jh45gun]

Originally Posted by Lerb21

No I understand that 12" speakers work only for guitar.

You lost me on that one as Bass speakers even come in ten inch and they kick but yea common sense says not to play a bass through a guitar amp as it could blow the speaker. Will not hurt the amp part just the speaker part. So a bass or heavy PA speaker is preferred.

Tim interesting that you blew a black widow playing bass through it a black widow should be plenty tough enough to hold up to a Bass. Look at Peavey PA cabs they get the KICK and bass lined out to them and they hold up fine. I did blow one once in one of my 115 Internationals and got the basket replaced and I have no idea why it blew but we used them full range for years running miked drums and a bass lined out to them with no issues except that one time.

[trag-o-caster]

I was once told (by whom, I don't remember) that you could safely use a guitar amp for bass as long as you have at least twice the wattage of speaker that the amp has.

I used my Sovtek Mig-50 head into a 15" JBL and blew the speaker. So much for THAT theory!

[jh45gun]

WELL I suspect that was just made for guitar as JBL does make dedicated bass speakers. After I talked about that Black Widow I wonder if they are all the same or different? I know Eminence PA speakers that are high wattage say PA or Bass Useage.

[photoweborama]

Kustom SS amps sound really good. I had a 65 watter and it had such a good sounding clean sound that many were very suprised it did not have any tubes.

I have a cheap Peavey Valve King now that sounds great, but I seldom take it out of the house.

[Lerb21]

Originally Posted by jh45gun

You lost me on that one as Bass speakers even come in ten inch and they kick but yea common sense says not to play a bass through a guitar amp as it could blow the speaker. Will not hurt the amp part just the speaker part. So a bass or heavy PA speaker is preferred.

I was thinking something like that.

Common sense dictates that you don't run a Bass through a guitar amp.

Strangely enough I've run my bass through a $100 Peavey Rage 158 Guitar Amp for several years and it has NEVER blown or shown any problems.

[voided3]

Originally Posted by photoweborama

Kustom SS amps sound really good. I had a 65 watter and it had such a good sounding clean sound that many were very suprised it did not have any tubes.

I have a cheap Peavey Valve King now that sounds great, but I seldom take it out of the house.

I have two late 60's Kustom K200 SS heads and they are great! Very inexpensive, too, for how nice they are; all point to point wiring. I think they still can be had for $200-300 and chances are, even without anything replaced, they'll still work great. One of mine is stock and the other has only needed a new input jack (but they both got three prong cords to avoid having sparks shoot from my teeth....).

I run them currently through a pair of Epiphone Valve Junior 1x12"s and they sound great in addition to only being about 26lbs. each! I owned three different matching Kustom 2x15"s from the same era at one point, too, and those would SLAM. With a pair of 2x15"s, you get full stack volume easily.

[voided3]

Oh, and they come in several different sparkle naugahyde coverings to match your taste in guitar finishes!



P.S.- I tried one of the new "blackface" styled Frontman 212R's with the silver grille and it actually sounded quite good; solid cleans, and a usable overdrive channel, though pedals probably would trump it. The older black grilled ones that have the picture of the dude in sunglasses on the speaker magnets sounded pretty bad, though. I think they use different speakers in them now as I noticed they have a similar tan and brown label to the speakers on the Hot Rod series amps, but I don't think they are the same drivers as those amps.