Noob help...getting tube amp tone at quiet volume

[Tlon]

So, I'm getting back into playing after many years away. I would love to get a nice sounding tube amp, something like a Blues Jr (love the sound), but I need something I can play in the house, quietly, while the kids are asleep, etc., if possible, without headphones. I'm mostly interesting in learning to play the blues and some rock.

I've tried reading through this site:

http://www.amptone.com/index.html

And I'm completely overwhelmed. It's all Greek to me. Could anyone translate this into a basic setup. Is it possible to get a good tube amp tone at low volumes? Do I just add a attenuator or something similar? Do I need to get two or three EQ pedals, an overdrive, an attenuator, etc., as the site above seems to suggest?

Am I even asking the right questions?

Any help would be appreciated.

I imagine this has been discussed many times before, so if anyone has an relevant thread bookmarked, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

[PixelMover]

You need yourself an attenuator. It allows your amp to run at higher volumes (pushing the tubes) but attenuates the volume to an acceptable level.

There are many attenuators available. If you have the money I would highly recommend the Dr. Z Air Brake. It's built like a tank, has fine controls, doesn't suck the treble out of your tone like many tend to do, it will hold it's value well, and will be a box you will hold onto for years.

http://www.drzamps.com/airbrake.html

One on Ebay right now 17hrs left.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Z-Airbrake-Dr-Z-...3%3A1|294%3A50

[tiktok]

If by "good tube amp tone" you mean tube distortion, I'd say...not really. A Champ's about as small a tube amp as you're going to come across, and unless your kids are really sound sleepers or you've got good soundproofing, it's too loud to crank, and that's only 6W into an 8".

I've got about the smallest tube amp ever made--the ZVex NanoAmp which is a half-watt, and even into a small speaker, it's pretty loud when you get into break-up territory. For my money, at true home volumes, you're better off with pedals or a headphone amp. I've never heard an attenuator that sounded great at bedroom volume.

[Billm]

The Blues Junior has a master volume control and you can dial up considerable amounts of distortion with the volume control and set the overall level down to family-pleasing level with the master. It's not as rewarding as getting full distortion in every stage of the amp and moving a lot of air with the speaker... but it's not bad. It's certainly good enough for practice and learning, and the 12 inch speaker sounds better than the Champ, even at low volume levels.

[JohnnyCrash]

Master Volume controls.
Attenuators.
Overdrive pedals.

I'd suggest getting the lowest powered tube amp you can (with the features you want), since all of the above sound best when used sparingly.

If you want clean tube sounds with reverb, etc (ie Fender cleans) you can get this out of all sorts of tube amps without requiring attenuation or overdrives.

[metropolis74]

Originally Posted by Billm

The Blues Junior has a master volume control and you can dial up considerable amounts of distortion with the volume control and set the overall level down to family-pleasing level with the master. It's not as rewarding as getting full distortion in every stage of the amp and moving a lot of air with the speaker... but it's not bad. It's certainly good enough for practice and learning, and the 12 inch speaker sounds better than the Champ, even at low volume levels.

+1
Just get the Blues Junior and adjust the master volume for distortion at family friendly levels.

My advice is to disregard the (mis)information on http://www.amptone.com/index.html . That site messed me up too when I first started getting into tube amps about 10 years ago. Just concentrate on playing your guitar and having fun! You don't need an attenuator, 3 EQ pedals, overdrive pedal, and the dozens of other items suggested by amptone in order to get a good tone. All you need is guitar-->cord-->amp. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

[Mike H.]

A Peavey Classic 20 can do great overdriven tone at a super low volume.
They are not in current production, but you can find used ones from time to time.
The prices have come down to reality lately. They were selling for $300+ a year ago. I've recently seen a couple of them that sold for less than $200.

[PhatTele]

I wouldn't even bother w/a tube amp if you're going to be playing that quietly. I'd get a Vox DA5 for in the house practicing and get something larger for when you go out to jam. The DA5 goes from .5 to 5 watts, can sit next to your computer if you're practicing to iTunes or your iPod can be plugged into it, the effects are great for low volume (especially the reverb and tremolo), you can use headphones, and they're cheap. I use mine all the time.

[Wally]

Build a closed speaker box about two feet deep and big enough to house whatever sepaker you choose. THis box will be totally enclosed. IN the end that the speaker is facing, install a port with a fitting over which the tubing for a stethoscope will fit. Voila! There's your practice speaker for your Blues Jr. You can get a used stethoscope...mechanics use them so a parts/tool supply will have them at a reasonable price.
Have I ever tried this? NO. Has it ever been done? YEs. Some people use such a device as an isolation box when recording. IF you try this, let us know how it goes.
The truth is, there is nothing that sounds like a tube amp that has the power tubes cooking and the air moving. There is no substitute. Every option has its drawbacks. A load reactive attenuator would be the best of the thing discussed so far.
This speaker isolation thing has always intrigued me. Someone was marketing them back in the late '90's, IIRC. THe plan for one could get very complex if one thought about it long enough. IF the box is totally sealed, then the reaction of the speaker is damped. That leads one to consider how to baffle the thing so that it could be ported. This might do away with the need to use the stethoscope/ariphones??? STay tuned...I might build one up out of curiousity. The drawback might be that it could be much bigger than the amp! LOL....just to contain the muflling aspect!

[Astro1176]

Originally Posted by PhatTele

I wouldn't even bother w/a tube amp if you're going to be playing that quietly. I'd get a Vox DA5 for in the house practicing and get something larger for when you go out to jam. The DA5 goes from .5 to 5 watts, can sit next to your computer if you're practicing to iTunes or your iPod can be plugged into it, the effects are great for low volume (especially the reverb and tremolo), you can use headphones, and they're cheap. I use mine all the time.

+1, that or a Microcube. Whilst not much can equal the tone of a cranked valve amp, to play at modest and definitely to play at quiet don't-wake-the-kids levels, a good small modeling amp with a small speaker will imho sound a lot better.

[guitarguytim]

Tube purists may want to kill me for saying this... but I love my Vox Valvetronic amp. It has a tube power amp, then there is a bunch of digital and analog stuff thrown in. The best feature is that I can turn the wattage way down on it and get great tones at low volumes. It doesn't sound as good as my old Fender Twin, but I can play it in my condo while the baby's sleeping...

[Skrik]

Vox AC4 on the quarter watt setting? It's still going to get pretty loud, but not as loud as the BJ.

[drewsblues]

If you want your kids to stay asleep, forget the Blues Jr.

True, it has a master volume. But I've found that the range between 0 and 1.5 goes from "I can't hear it" to "Wow! It's pretty darned loud!" And the knob twists all the way to 12! Just barely tapping it with your finger makes a huge difference in volume when you're below 2 (and 2 is too loud for the kids' bedtime, I reckon). This is my only complaint about the Blues Jr.: Great sound, but the master volume is too sensitive, and basically useless at lower volumes.

I agree with other posters that, if by "tube tone" you mean "distortion," you're out of luck, even with an attenuator. But, if you're really just looking for warm blues tone that sounds nice, full, and juicy, you've got options.

For an off-the-shelf, affordable solution, I'd recommend trying a Champion 600 with a decent pedal in front of it. Maybe a Boss Blues Driver, a Digitech Bad Monkey, or something similar. I've also heard good things about the Roland MicroCube. Good tube simulation and it sounds passable at low volume levels. Also comes with its own effects... kind of a nice bonus.

Others will have their own excellent opinions, and I'm sure someone will be able to point out an exotic, custom, or modded solution, if you have the budget, the time, and the know-how.

You could always try earplugs. For the kids.

Whatever you decide, let us know what you end up with and how it sounds!

[imsilly]

Here is a basic break down of "the rules" of overdriving tube amps, not to be taken 100% seriously.

1) Lower watt amps will overdrive at a lower volume.

2) Less effecient speakers distort at a lower volume.

3) The less air you push (relative to surface area of speakers) the lower your volume with be.

4) An attenuator will lower your amp's volume, but will reduce tone the more you push it.

5) An overdrive pedal will make your amp sound distorted at a lower volume, but will not sound exactly like an amp overdriving naturally.

6) Master volumes on amps tend to push the preamp stage and therefore create a slightly different flavour of overdrive. Remember there are a number of things distorting in an amp that cause it's overal overdrive tone.

7) Playing an amp clean isn't always a bad thing.

[davebelcher98]

An even quieter option: don't rule out the Vox Amplug. Now, I know, these are far from tube amps! They plug directly into your guitar input jack (almost like a little wireless pack) with aux in and headphones out. The thing is, I was blown away by how good and realistic the overdriven (and even just "saturated" "just breaking up") tone of the AC30 model was. I received one for my birthday, and I can play with the thing as loud as I want! It is responsive like a good tube amp or good overdrive too -- lighten up your attack or roll down the volume knob and the thing cleans up really, really nicely.

You could even go direct to your computer with this thing (with a 1/4 in. to 1/8 in. adapter at the amplug's headphone output jack). I recorded a little bit with it and it sounds so close to a real AC30. Unbelievable.

AT LEAST give the thing a try. You'll be amazed.

[woodman]

a small (i.e. low-powered) tube amp with an inefficient speaker will get you there. look for old Epiphones or Gibsons (although Gibsons are starting to attract attention now). to get what i consider real tube overdrive sounds, you gotta flog the power tubes.

my ancient Epiphone has 6BM8s in it, which (if i understand correctly) serve as both preamp tubes and power tubes. it will grind at acoustic volume with flattop pickers if you turn it toward the wall or otherwise position it so they're not in the direct blast. i often jam with bluegrass guys in living-room situations this way, trying in vain to convince them that under some circumstances, the Tele IS a bluegrass instrument!

the point is, if you're two rooms away from the sleeping kids, playing in a fairly dead space (carpet, drapes etc.), you could honk away without waking them — assuming they're already sound asleep.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by Wally

Build a closed speaker box about two feet deep and big enough to house whatever sepaker you choose. THis box will be totally enclosed. IN the end that the speaker is facing, install a port with a fitting over which the tubing for a stethoscope will fit. Voila! There's your practice speaker for your Blues Jr. You can get a used stethoscope...mechanics use them so a parts/tool supply will have them at a reasonable price.
Have I ever tried this? NO. Has it ever been done? YEs. Some people use such a device as an isolation box when recording. IF you try this, let us know how it goes.
The truth is, there is nothing that sounds like a tube amp that has the power tubes cooking and the air moving. There is no substitute. Every option has its drawbacks. A load reactive attenuator would be the best of the thing discussed so far.
This speaker isolation thing has always intrigued me. Someone was marketing them back in the late '90's, IIRC. THe plan for one could get very complex if one thought about it long enough. IF the box is totally sealed, then the reaction of the speaker is damped. That leads one to consider how to baffle the thing so that it could be ported. This might do away with the need to use the stethoscope/ariphones??? STay tuned...I might build one up out of curiousity. The drawback might be that it could be much bigger than the amp! LOL....just to contain the muflling aspect!

I use a double enclosed 1x12" isolation cab (with foam between birch cabs) for recording (posted a thread a few weeks back with photos). I throw a mic in there and record while monitoring through headphones (or a monitor when I need to get feedback).

For screwing around in my room I use MV's, OD's, or attenuators - for recording I don't like what they do to the sound - a speaker needs to be punished to sound right :)

For home use or jamming - a MV amp might do the trick.

[Tlon]

This is great. Thanks so much for the advice. Right now, I have the microcube and think it's great, but not quite the nice tone of the Blues Jr. It does a good job, though. I also have a G-Dec 30, which is also quite nice, but just not a tube amp. I guess I was looking to see if I could replace the G-Dec 30 and Microcube with something I really loved the sound of.

You've all given me a lot to think about! Thanks!

[strat a various]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

I use a double enclosed 1x12" isolation cab (with foam between birch cabs) for recording (posted a thread a few weeks back with photos). I throw a mic in there and record while monitoring through headphones (or a monitor when I need to get feedback).

For screwing around in my room I use MV's, OD's, or attenuators - for recording I don't like what they do to the sound - a speaker needs to be punished to sound right :)

For home use or jamming - a MV amp might do the trick.

Hey, glad you finally built that isolation cab, I'll have to do a Search and see if I can find the pics.

[old goat]

I've been very happy with Weber's attenuator-the Mini something or other--the cheaper one. It does kill the treble but it has a treble boost switch which I never use, because my old Tremolux is already too trebly. It's easy to use an attenuator with the Blues Jr, because the line to the speaker unplugs. I don't bother with the attenuator with my BJ--my kids are grown, my wife is deaf, and who cares if the neighbors complain? And actually, I'm pretty happy with the tone of the BJ with the master volume set at a household level, which I define as being able to hear myself sing (which is why the neighbors don't complain when I crank the amp up--they don't have to hear me sing)

[Brick]

I have played on only one amp that ever sounded really good to me that had a great cranked amp sound at low volume, and that was the very expensive Carr Mercury. What a sweet amp this is. Loud enough to gig, quiet enough for an apartment.

[klast]

Originally Posted by Skrik

Vox AC4 on the quarter watt setting? It's still going to get pretty loud, but not as loud as the BJ.

Tried the AC4TV combo yesterday. Nice breakup tone and also nice clean tone. However, even at the 1/4 W setting I found it to be too loud for breakup at home volume. This was with a Strat. With an LP or 335 breakup will probably be at lower volume.

Klas

[imsilly]

I'm getting worried that I have misunderstood the term "home volume".

I play my Super Reverb loud enough to distort at home and no complaints. I tend not to do it after about 10pm though. Plus after about 4 on the dial the amp doesn't get dramatically louder. I think it's something most vintage Super Reverbs do as I have heard it mentioned they aren't as loud as their reissues.

How could a half a watt amp be too loud for home if I get away with a 40 watt with 4 speakers?

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by Tlon

So, I'm getting back into playing after many years away. I would love to get a nice sounding tube amp, something like a Blues Jr (love the sound), but I need something I can play in the house, quietly, while the kids are asleep, etc., if possible, without headphones. I'm mostly interesting in learning to play the blues and some rock.

I've tried reading through this site:

http://www.amptone.com/index.html

And I'm completely overwhelmed. It's all Greek to me. Could anyone translate this into a basic setup. Is it possible to get a good tube amp tone at low volumes? Do I just add a attenuator or something similar? Do I need to get two or three EQ pedals, an overdrive, an attenuator, etc., as the site above seems to suggest?

Am I even asking the right questions?

Any help would be appreciated.

I imagine this has been discussed many times before, so if anyone has an relevant thread bookmarked, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

If you are looking for loud amp tone at low volume, then it's not really possible. This is because the human hearing changes with volume. The attached document is an attempt to explain why as simply as possible.

Hope it helps you understand the problem and limitations.

Have fun though!!

[old goat]

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

If you are looking for loud amp tone at low volume, then it's not really possible. This is because the human hearing changes with volume. The attached document is an attempt to explain why as simply as possible.

Hope it helps you understand the problem and limitations.

Have fun though!!

I'm confused--the text suggests that the bass and treble response are decreased at low volumes but the graph shows that at low volume the frequency response is relatively flat, while at high volumes the mids are relatively louder. In any case, we all know that loud volume is what turns us into sex-crazed drug fiends, which is why we play rock and roll. There's really no point in playing softly.

[pistolsteve]

What about an Egnater Rebel? I don't have any personal experience other than playing one in a store, but it's a 20-watt amp with a knob that let's you dial the amp to run at anywhere from 1-watt to 20 watts.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

If you are looking for loud amp tone at low volume, then it's not really possible. This is because the human hearing changes with volume. The attached document is an attempt to explain why as simply as possible.

Hope it helps you understand the problem and limitations.

Have fun though!!

Considering how loud (in actual db's) even 5 watt amps are, it can be reasonable to still piss off neighbors and punish your ears :)

I don't know if a 5w with an efficient speaker can reach 120db or not, though.

Cool article. Would it be reasonable to assume that some ears are off of that 120 db threshold +/-? Do damaged ears attenuate more treble (loud concerts seems to kill my treble afterwards)?

Sure some of the perceived changes in tone/performance is our ear attenuating a damaging volume, but when I record I use an isolation cab and headphones. I can tell you, most amps do sound/perform better loud (even clean tones are a bit more compressed) - and it is possible to capture some of that gusto of a cranked amp only by cranking it... as far as getting our ears to buckle and influence the "tone" though I'd have to get my monitors to crack the 120 db barrier :)

[metropolis74]

Originally Posted by Tlon

This is great. Thanks so much for the advice. Right now, I have the microcube and think it's great, but not quite the nice tone of the Blues Jr. It does a good job, though. I also have a G-Dec 30, which is also quite nice, but just not a tube amp. I guess I was looking to see if I could replace the G-Dec 30 and Microcube with something I really loved the sound of.

You've all given me a lot to think about! Thanks!

Oh, you already have a G-Dec and Microcube. Well there ya go. Play the G-Dec or Microcube while the kids are sleeping and play the Blues Junior (or whatever low wattage tube amp you end up with) while they are awake. Bam! Problem solved. But that's just my opinion. I'd rather spend my time playing guitar instead of building isolation cabs and buying attenuators or tube emulator doodads, etc.

But you and I might have completely different ideas of what "good tube amp tone at low volumes" is. For me, my tweed Champ with volume on "6" is a good compromise between "good tube tone" (a little grit on the note when I dig into the strings) for me, and volume for my wife and neighbors afterhours since I live in a townhouse. I just suck it up and wait until daytime to plug into my big tube amp and use a pedal if I want mucho distortion.

[Televised]

Originally Posted by guitarguytim

Tube purists may want to kill me for saying this... but I love my Vox Valvetronic amp. It has a tube power amp, then there is a bunch of digital and analog stuff thrown in. The best feature is that I can turn the wattage way down on it and get great tones at low volumes. It doesn't sound as good as my old Fender Twin, but I can play it in my condo while the baby's sleeping...

I've had good luck with the Vox AD30VT and simply turn down the "power sponge" in back.

My back up and maybe better option is I have a little Shoe Box sized "Pignose" which is 5 watts of screaming quiet distortion if there is such a thing,

[metropolis74]

Originally Posted by Televised

I've had good luck with the Vox AD30VT and simply turn down the "power sponge" in back.

Sorry if this is considered hijacking the thread, but can someone explain to me what other benefits the Vox AD30VT has that the OP's Microcube or G-Dec doesn't already have for quiet at home only use?

[cmm71]

Welcome to the search. I've been struggling, and I do mean struggling, to find the amp you describe for many years. I'm on the verge of turning back to solid state and giving up...my bank account is crying.

[telebluesrocker]

depends what you mean by 'tube amp tone' but you would be amazed how good some effects processors such as the line 6 pocket pod are at replecating tube amps. it will sound the same at any volume and you camn put headphones in it as well if you want.

[Tlon]

Originally Posted by metropolis74

Oh, you already have a G-Dec and Microcube. Well there ya go. Play the G-Dec or Microcube while the kids are sleeping and play the Blues Junior (or whatever low wattage tube amp you end up with) while they are awake. Bam! Problem solved. But that's just my opinion. I'd rather spend my time playing guitar instead of building isolation cabs and buying attenuators or tube emulator doodads, etc.

I was hoping to get rid of the first two and use the money for the tube amp, but you're right, this is a solution.

I played briefly through an Orange Tiny Terror Combo today that, at least during the day time, seemed pretty nice for a home level (this was in an apartment). The amp switches from 15 to 7 watts, which I assume is similar to what a power attenuator does? Anyway, I thought it sounded pretty sweet with a tele. Here's a guy on Youtube putting it through various settings with a Baja:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tab8z...eature=related

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by Tlon

So, I'm getting back into playing after many years away. I would love to get a nice sounding tube amp, something like a Blues Jr (love the sound), but I need something I can play in the house, quietly, while the kids are asleep, etc., if possible, without headphones. I'm mostly interesting in learning to play the blues and some rock.

I've tried reading through this site:

http://www.amptone.com/index.html

And I'm completely overwhelmed. It's all Greek to me. Could anyone translate this into a basic setup. Is it possible to get a good tube amp tone at low volumes? Do I just add a attenuator or something similar? Do I need to get two or three EQ pedals, an overdrive, an attenuator, etc., as the site above seems to suggest?

Am I even asking the right questions?

Any help would be appreciated.

I imagine this has been discussed many times before, so if anyone has an relevant thread bookmarked, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

This gets asked all the time, and the short answer is: It's not possible.

We have to remember, an integral part of that "tube tone" most people seek is volume. You need to move some air, and let the amp work some. The kids aren't gonna be able to sleep through it.