Are AlNiCo's really worth the money?

[cdc3jj]

I've decided to convert my bandmaster over to a 4x10 super clone. I was shopping speakers last night and couldn't belive the price difference between cermaics and alnico's. I borrowed a friends super to see how I can live with it and it's got the celestion ceramics and sounds great. I don't know if I've ever played through a true alnico but I want to make sure I'm not missing out before I start dropping bills. Thanks

[woodman]

alnicos's are an alloy of aluminium (Al), nickel (Ni) and cobalt (Co) ... cobalt prices have gone through the roof over the last few years and that's why those speakers are so much higher. i bought several Weber alnico's before they went up, but they'd still be worth the extra dough to me, because i like that sweet, singing sound. the ceramics sound a little stiffer and more strident to me, although they do hold a tighter bottom end. it really all depends on *your* sound — a lot of people run a combination of both in multi-speaker amps.

[InknI]

Im amazed with the tone everytime I play my Vox with Alnico's. Ive also yet to have someone else play it who didnt love it either. It was well worth the extra money.

[tazzboy]

For the tone Alnico is worth it.

[xjazzy]

I think it's worth.
I hade a jensen in my DRRI that blew up and I replaced it with a Weber ceramic.
Although the Weber sounds nice, I miss the smoothness of the alnico.
The ceramic sounds more "metalic" to my ears.

[petebradt]

It's alnico or don't play for me.

[Columbus]

AlNiCos are cool, but don't discount ceramics, because lots of AWESOME guitar sounds you've heard on records were made through ceramics (IE, just about anybody using a Marshall, anyone playing through (most) stock BF or SF Fenders).
My experience is that Ceramics tend to be more direct (rippin' rock sound), while AlNiCos have a chimier sound with more harmonics but are less focused.
My Super Reverb has CTS AlNiCo speakers and they sound great, but I've never tried the amp with any other speakers. I guess it depends on your budget, but if you liked the Celestions in your friend's amp, that might be a good place to start.
Lots of people seem to like the Weber Sig AlNiCos and they are fairly inexpensive ($40 per speaker for the 10").

[Wally]

Imo, it depends on what you want and what the amp is. In general..... Alnico is smoother...especially in distortion situations while Ceramics can be more articulate and punchier, ime.
FWiw, the Eminence LEgend GB12's...ceramic British cones, hi-efficiency...are great speakers for the small OT FEnder amps like the BAndmaster. Big bottom, warm and smooth highs....they work really well with the little OT's that saturate early. IN a PRo REverb, which is much the same as your Bandmaster but in a 2X12 combo, the LEgend GB128's are fantastic speakers. IF I were going to make a combo out of a Bandmaster, this would be my choice. IN fact, I would simply use the existing cab and leave things separate. Build a new back panel for the cab that is 1/3 opened up on one side. AMazing results....and two lighter packages.
But, I like 4X10 ALnico set-ups, also.

[cdc3jj]

Thanks for all the replies. It will probably we a week or two before I get in full swing on the project. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress.

[pcypert]

I would say it's only worth it if that's the specific tone you're after. To me, my Vox has a very specific voicing that I want and Alnico is the way to get it...but I can get a very good other tone with emminence or other speakers....just different from what I'm wanting now...

[tele_jas]

Before I knew a single thing about amps.... I played a 1969 Fender Deluxe for YEARS (on the road, studio, practices, ect..). I read about speakers and thought I'd swap out speakers with this old, yucky looking silver framed speaker with the "Vox" label falling off. I tried MANY ceramic magnet speakers and thougt "well, maybe this amp was supposed to have this "Vox" speaker in it, so I played it like this for 7 more years until the speaker finally rotted. I never found a speaker that sounded as good, but I still didn't know a whole lot about speakers and found a decent replacment. Later, I sold what was left of that "Vox" speaker on Ebay and found out it was an original 60s Vox AlNiCo that came stock in AC30's. Hind site.... I should have spent the $50 and re-coned that speaker from Weber Speakers, but I got about $500 for it like it was on Ebay.

Over the next few years, I tried MANY amps (over 60), some had ceramic and some had AlNiCo speakers.... I started seeing a pattern with the amps and the alnico speakers.

Long story cut short.... Yes, the AlNiCo speakers are worth the extra $$ . This is a case where you "get what you pay for".

[eggman]

Howdy,

Depends on the amp/application. For Buck Owens type tones through a Twin, I doubt AlNiCo would offer any improvement-go Ceramic. For slightly overdriven Keef tones, AlNiCo is probably worth it. YMMV. Good luck!

Eggman
PS: My Carmen Ghia sounds better for raunch after replacing the Celestion Vintage 30 (Ceramic) with a Weber AlNiCO Silver Bell.

[Dr. Bill]

Originally Posted by cdc3jj

I've decided to convert my bandmaster over to a 4x10 super clone. I was shopping speakers last night and couldn't belive the price difference between cermaics and alnico's. I borrowed a friends super to see how I can live with it and it's got the celestion ceramics and sounds great. I don't know if I've ever played through a true alnico but I want to make sure I'm not missing out before I start dropping bills. Thanks

Unless you add reverb it will be more of a Concert clone, and I hope you are not planning to massively rewire it, add reverb, etc. Instead of a 4x10 configuration, why not do it in a 3x10 configuration like the old tweed and brownface Bandmasters. This is a project that I've been interested in for quite some time.

http://www.ggjaguar.com/projbmaster.htm

Particularly if your Bandmaster is a blackface model, something like this would, IMHO, be pretty cool. A custom brown or tan tolex cab, a custom brown faceplate, 3 Weber alnico sigs, and a Mr. Springgy reverb pedal . . . . Yowza! Surfs up!!

Dr. Bill

[pgambon]

I'm not completly convinced one way or the other. There are a lot of speakers designed for different applications these days. Check the Emenince line and Weber's neo mag speakers. Going with the logic that Alnico is always better, because its alnico seems like a flawed approach.

[muchxs]

My perspective on alnicos is that I use genuine vintage alnicos, usually Jensens and they're their own thing. I consider the Jensens to be 15 watt speakers which means just about any old ceramic is going to stomp them as far as power handling goes. Reissue Jensens have "also ran" status for me, I like Eminence, Weber and Celestion depending on application.

Weber makes the best guitar speakers in the world IMO. Eminence makes more loudspeakers than anyone anywhere so they beat Weber on price. Webers are sometimes intended for very specific applications and tones so it's critical that you get the right one. Weber is a rifle, Eminence is a shotgun. You'll hit your mark exactly with a Weber if your aim is good. All you have to do with Eminence is point in the general direction of your target. Nailed it!

I like ceramics and I like the way the ceramics I use are voiced. I've said this over and over like a broken record, Eminence Legend 1058s or 10516s are my favorite. They offer more bang for your buck in many applications. They're tighter than alnicos, they have better bass than many 10" alnicos and you probably won't blow them in a Super. Ever.

If you're on the fence mix alnico and ceramic. Stagger them, one alnico on the bottom, one alnico on the top. I'd use Legend 1028ks and Legend 1058s. That's around $250 worth of speakers plus shipping.

For comparison you could always run a slight impedance mismatch, run the amp through the two alnicos then run it through the two ceramics. If either setup is your clear preference you could switch over to all ceramic or all alnico.

[backline]

Originally Posted by pcypert

I would say it's only worth it if that's the specific tone you're after. To me, my Vox has a very specific voicing that I want and Alnico is the way to get it...but I can get a very good other tone with emminence or other speakers....just different from what I'm wanting now...

Just to have AlNiCo magnets????...... Of course not, they are no better or worse than a ceramic magnet. It all depends on what YOU hear and nothing else.
Good Luck

[JohnnyCrash]

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

I like mine at that edge of speaker breakup, but not into speaker breakup - so it depends on the amp and speaker. Also some are worse than others. I like the new Jensen RI P15N too death. I also love the Celestion Blues. Some AlNiCo's aren't so good though.

Some amp circuits beg for ceramics, some NEED AlNiCo's... so it depends.

[cdc3jj]

My bandmaster is a bandmaster reverb. I keep leaving that out. I might try the stagger thing to start. I played my friends super with the ceramic celestions at a three hour shake and bake this afternoon. (they shake, we bake) Really loved the amp and how well it responded to everything. I did notice a few times when switching from a tele to a 335 that the eq was difficult to nail. It seemed a little bright with the tele clean, and a little bottom heavy with the 335. I know this is mostly due to the difference in pickups, but I was thinking, would a alnico have a wider eq spread? Kind of like a hand towel vs a beach towel. The hand towel does it's job perfect in the right application but a beach towel just covers a lot more area so to speak. Or like the shot gun analogy. I think I need to cover a wider eq range without being quite so specific. I could set it to sound pristine with either guitar, but I'd prefer not to have to reach back and twist knobs. It was really only when clean, the pedals eq knobs pretty well evened the playing field, but when it was more straight in it got either boomy or tinny. Any thoughts? Thanks again for the great info and responses.

[cdc3jj]

In re-reading that post it occured to me, maybe I need a smaller eq response, not wider. Wider might push the highs higher and make the lows more boomy. Now I have confused even myself. Appologies. Hopefully you guys know what I'm talking about.

[Dr. Bill]

Originally Posted by cdc3jj

My bandmaster is a bandmaster reverb. I keep leaving that out. I might try the stagger thing to start. I played my friends super with the ceramic celestions at a three hour shake and bake this afternoon. (they shake, we bake) Really loved the amp and how well it responded to everything. I did notice a few times when switching from a tele to a 335 that the eq was difficult to nail. It seemed a little bright with the tele clean, and a little bottom heavy with the 335. I know this is mostly due to the difference in pickups, but I was thinking, would a alnico have a wider eq spread? Kind of like a hand towel vs a beach towel. The hand towel does it's job perfect in the right application but a beach towel just covers a lot more area so to speak. Or like the shot gun analogy. I think I need to cover a wider eq range without being quite so specific. I could set it to sound pristine with either guitar, but I'd prefer not to have to reach back and twist knobs. It was really only when clean, the pedals eq knobs pretty well evened the playing field, but when it was more straight in it got either boomy or tinny. Any thoughts? Thanks again for the great info and responses.

Thanks for the clarifcation. The SFBR is a different amp from the non-reverb Bandmaster, so disregard what I said earlier. Given my experience with Super Reverbs, I'd suggest going with alnico speakers. The CTS alnico tens that came stock in many Supers really are ideal for the amp in most applications.

Four 8-ohm tens can be wired either for 2 ohms (parallel) or 8 ohms (series/parallel), while the stock SFBR OT is 4 ohms. One solution would be to get a Twin Reverb OT and wire the speakers for 8 ohms (which will work because you are using two 6L6 power tubes instead of four). Hope this helps, and keep us posted on the project.

Dr. Bill

[strat a various]

If you can, get to a good music store and try some amps with alnico speakers. To me, the difference is subtle. Until you can pick them out from just listening, they're not worth the price, so it depends on your ear and your amp tone. If you play with no distortion pedal and not too much gain, the difference is more noticeable. Once you crank up the fuzz box, may as well have ceramics.

[golfnut]

Originally Posted by woodman

alnicos's are an alloy of aluminium (Al), nickel (Ni) and cobalt (Co) ... cobalt prices have gone through the roof over the last few years and that's why those speakers are so much higher. i bought several Weber alnico's before they went up, but they'd still be worth the extra dough to me, because i like that sweet, singing sound. the ceramics sound a little stiffer and more strident to me, although they do hold a tighter bottom end. it really all depends on *your* sound — a lot of people run a combination of both in multi-speaker amps.

In my 3X10 Victorilux I run a combination of 2 Alnico and 1 ceramic. 2 Weber 10A125's and a 10F150.

[cdc3jj]

In talking around this topic I heard an interesting "mojo" inducing story... might be more jive inducing but I thought I would pass it along and see if anyone can lend any truth to it, or if it's a myth busters episode in the making.

We were talking about staggering the speakers. The guy I borrowed the super reverb from is a long islander through and through. He used to play regularly around the area in the 70's and 80's. He played in a group (can't remember the name) with a cat named John Martin. It seems john held the belief that using ceramics and alnico's in the same cab, one of each on top and visa versa, changed the magnetic field. He believed the push/pull of the magnets opened the speakers up in a way that they sounded incredible. My friend was telling me that john always had "the tone" and that his super always sounded amazing. Not to mention Martin was a well educated guy. I don't know in what area or if it had anything to do with this subject matter.

Any of you speaker guru's care to chime in on this one? I know about as much about magnetic fields as I do about brain surgery.