reality check: 5 watt head in the rehearsal place

[eddiewagner]

hi friends, since i am the proud owner of a brandnew 5 watt head, i could not wait to check out, how that thing behaves in the real world. i hooked it up to a 1X12" cab, loaded with the almighty eminence tonker. to tell the truth: i can see no way, how you can possibly rock an audience with 5 watts. i turned it up full blast, and that was still nothing really substancial. it would be okay for a rehearsal or a really mellow band with acoustic instruments, singer songwriter stuff. then i plugged back the princeton and there was that power again. just ten watts more, but i guess that is what it takes. my two cents and i have been wrong before....
eddie

[wetland10]

My take on it is that if you mic the amp, it will be better, but you still won't hear it well enough on a stage with louder instruments. In the studio it works just fine. But, once you really start to push a 5 watt amp and get the volume up around 9 or 10 to try to hear it, it really strains and sounds awful in the mix.

Wayne

[Post Toastie]

A 5 watt amp is 50% as loud as a 50 watt amp
A 15% watt amp is 70% as loud as a 50 watt amp

[Jelle]

There's no way an acoustic guitar and bass could keep up with my 5F1 Champ (8") and I sometimes use it for electric jams (when the drummer is somewhat considerate), so perhaps speaker sensitivity is an issue (or perhaps I'm talking out of my @$$ here, wouldn't be the first time).

It's a Harley Benton, right? From what I've read, the similar Valve Junior is surpisingly loud and holds its own against a Champ volume-wise.

[wetland10]

I tried the valve junior head through a 4x12 cabinet at rehearsal a while ago and it couldn't keep up with the other guitar player's 50 watt, drums, and the 300 watt bass amp. It just can't do it in a rock band situation.

Wayne

[Tim Armstrong]

Eddie: use more speakers!

Tim

[JohnnyCrash]

I have a 1.5 watt tube head and its still too loud for bedroom jamming. I plugged it into a 2x12" and whoa!

5 watt amps can be great for recording and practising, but for gigs? No way.

[reverberocket2]

I just had the opposite reaction at rehearsal last week.

Took my Vibro Champ to rehearsal and ran it through a 4 ohm 2x12 Traynor cab loaded with Celestion Seventy 80's -- at 6-7 on the volume it kept up well with the drummer and I could easily hear myself over the other guitarist playing a 40 watt Traynor combo.

[maestrovert]

yep, a Champ powering an efficient 4 ohm 2x 12 cab is mighty satisfyin' indeed

[reverberocket2]

Originally Posted by maestrovert

yep, a Champ powering an efficient 4 ohm 2x 12 cab is mighty satisfyin' indeed

What surprised me the most is that these are not the top of the line Celestions and they are not the most efficient either (think they are around 97db similar to a greenback in efficiency as opposed to the 100db Vintage 30's and G12H-30's)

[muchxs]

It depends on whether or not you have a bonafide 5 watts or an "on paper" 5 watts claimed by the manufacturer. 5 watts with a stiff power supply and a stout OT can be "loud enough".

It depends on speaker sensitivity. A crappy old Rola at around 95db spl 1w/1m won't do much. A Red Fang or a Wizard at 103db spl will get your attention. Or go for every last milligram of efficiency and grab a pair of 16 ohm Wizards for that extra 1/2db and the ability to move more air.

[Singin' Dave]

I agree that 5w is not going to deliver very satisfying cleans unmiced in a rehearsal space with medium to loud drums. Even run through an efficient 2x12 or whatever. Dimed is a different story (and even then a loud drummer might bury it).

However, miced, I've gigged champs no problem. I'm somewhat mic bound as a lead singer/rhythm guitarist, so as long as my amp is up in my monitor, I'm all good.

[wetland10]

Originally Posted by Singin' Dave

I agree that 5w is not going to deliver very satisfying cleans unmiced in a rehearsal space with medium to loud drums. Even run through an efficient 2x12 or whatever. Dimed is a different story (and even then a loud drummer might bury it).

However, miced, I've gigged champs no problem. I'm somewhat mic bound as a lead singer/rhythm guitarist, so as long as my amp is up in my monitor, I'm all good.

That's the "problem." You can't hear it clean at all. Once you dime a 5 watt amp it starts to strain, if that is a good way to describe it, and become all farty and bassy. Not the tone I want.

Wayne

[muchxs]

Originally Posted by wetland10

That's the "problem." You can't hear it clean at all. Once you dime a 5 watt amp it starts to strain, if that is a good way to describe it, and become all farty and bassy. Not the tone I want.

Most "5 watt" amps were and are built to deliver 5 watts max. We can juggle the numbers, peak, program, RMS but the signal path inside an amp is a like a chain and a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The typical 5 watt amp has enough weak links to eliminate any hope of good tone at any volume level. You won't get cleans at any substantial volume. A "farty" distortion tone indicates that one or more things are sub-optimum, frequently inadequate power supply, less than ideal gain balance through the audio stages, a crummy little speaker and a short list of lesser variables. Little SEs are very sensitive to minor tweaks so if you make a change in the wrong direction you're less likely to compensate for it somewhere else in the amp.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

I have a 1.5 watt tube head and its still too loud for bedroom jamming. I plugged it into a 2x12" and whoa!

5 watt amps can be great for recording and practising, but for gigs? No way.

As I've mentioned many times in the past, as an experiment I once played a wedding gig through a Champ powering a closed-back 2x12 cab, and it was more than loud enough to keep up with another guitarist, keyboards, bass and drums.

I dimed the amp, and turned down the guitar volume pot to about 70%, at which point the amp cleaned up to an acceptable level of clean (quite harmonically rich, though, certainly not "blackface clean"). For solos, I just turned the guitar up a little bit.

It was loud enough, with NO MIC!, that I actually had to turn the amp down just a little!

In a crowded, busy barroom, I'd definitely want a mic on it, but I'd gig that rig anywhere (if I hadn't foolishly sold it!).

Tim

[muchxs]

Somewhere down the line I'm going to build an uprated Champ with a 7591 tube just because I have an "orphan" single 7591 tube and a vintage output transformer that won't work as well with anything else. A 7591 wants to see a 3k load which is less than half of what works for a 6V6. 300 volts on the plates, 300 volts on the screens, 11 watts output according to the data sheet although actual output would be less. With max ratings of 550 plate and 440 screen just add more voltage for more output.

Consider that we'd end up with a 10 watt "Champ". It's going to be clean at the "5 watt" level. That's how to build a "5 watt" amp with respectable cleans although no "respectable" manufacturer would call it a "5 watt amp", not when they could sell it as a 10 watt amp! It's primarily a matter of upgrading the power supply to support the superior (ratings wise compared to a 6V6) tube.

Why not swap to an EL34? Vintage amps used 6V6s, 6AQ5s, 6BQ5s and the like because that's what was most commonly used in the output stages of radios and phonographs. Thumbing through the data sheet: 265 volts plate, 250 volts screen grid, 2000 ohm load, 11 watts output. Oh, my. See how low the voltages are in relation to the output? And the max ratings are 800 volts plate, 450 volts screen. We won't go anywhere near 800 volts on the supply because it makes our lives difficult when we shop for capacitors. We need to pay attention to the fact that an EL34 is greedy when it comes to power consumption, we'll allow 100ma with a 20% safety margin (120 ma) on the high voltage and we must consider the 1.5 amp filament requirement. It's not a straight plug and play in a vintage Champ. However, if we started with a bare chassis and some adequate iron we could easily end up with a little amp that would give a tweed Deluxe a thrashing. Is it a "5 watt" amp? Nope. Would it play cleaner than a stock Champ at the "5 watt" level?

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

As I've mentioned many times in the past, as an experiment I once played a wedding gig through a Champ powering a closed-back 2x12 cab, and it was more than loud enough to keep up with another guitarist, keyboards, bass and drums.

In a crowded, busy barroom, I'd definitely want a mic on it, but I'd gig that rig anywhere (if I hadn't foolishly sold it!).

Tim

I remember you mentioning that years ago - I tried it and was floored. Depending on the speaker, mileage will vary, but for most folks it wont cut it. I'm lucky, I'm in a 3 piece, so I could probably get away with it at many rehearsal spaces - maybe even a few gigs - though I need a big crunchy tone that Champs can't deliver :)

Originally Posted by muchxs

Consider that we'd end up with a 10 watt "Champ". It's going to be clean at the "5 watt" level. That's how to build a "5 watt" amp with respectable cleans although no "respectable" manufacturer would call it a "5 watt amp", not when they could sell it as a 10 watt amp! It's primarily a matter of upgrading the power supply to support the superior (ratings wise compared to a 6V6) tube.

I've simply put in 10w iron as well as 15w iron on "5 watt" builds and the improvement was huge. Afterwhich I then tweaked the circuit to keep a tight bass and avoid ratty overdrive. Flipping loud.

One of my favorite Bass amps for practicing is a modified 5F1 tweed Champ circuit with a 10w OT. Most Champs fart out and get blown out bass - this thing stays clean with a guitar even when almost dimed and with bass has tight, big bottom.

Originally Posted by muchxs

Why not swap to an EL34? Vintage amps used 6V6s, 6AQ5s, 6BQ5s and the like because that's what was most commonly used in the output stages of radios and phonographs. Thumbing through the data sheet: 265 volts plate, 250 volts screen grid, 2000 ohm load, 11 watts output. Oh, my. See how low the voltages are in relation to the output? And the max ratings are 800 volts plate, 450 volts screen. We won't go anywhere near 800 volts on the supply because it makes our lives difficult when we shop for capacitors. We need to pay attention to the fact that an EL34 is greedy when it comes to power consumption, we'll allow 100ma with a 20% safety margin (120 ma) on the high voltage and we must consider the 1.5 amp filament requirement. It's not a straight plug and play in a vintage Champ. However, if we started with a bare chassis and some adequate iron we could easily end up with a little amp that would give a tweed Deluxe a thrashing. Is it a "5 watt" amp? Nope. Would it play cleaner than a stock Champ at the "5 watt" level?

I've done this. I built a 5F1 tweed Champ circuit head with the power section with 6V6's, 6L6's, and EL34's in mind - everything switchable on the back panel. I used a 15w OT and tailored the preamp and gain. With 6L6's the bass is tight, the sound clear and clean (almost "hi fi" in the midrange), and the volume is huge. With EL34's the mids are smooth and warm. Right now I'm running that one with a 6V6 though.

Of course, voltage and biasing considered, I don't consider them "5 watt" amps HAHA :)

[xjazzy]

I have a 6 piece band and I can use my Champ through a 1x12" cab with no problem. And yes, I have clean sound. I use the Champ about 6-7 in the volume with a tele or strat.

BUT, I've played in a friends rehersal room where even my DRRI needs to be up to 5 so I can keep up with just the drummer!

So, I think it's more up to the place you play and the others that play with you.

[eddiewagner]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I once played a wedding gig through a Champ powering a closed-back 2x12 cab, and it was more than loud enough to keep up with another guitarist, keyboards, bass and drums.

i agree that for that type of gig it will work fine.

[JCSouthpawtele]

Originally Posted by Post Toastie

A 5 watt amp is 50% as loud as a 50 watt amp
A 15% watt amp is 70% as loud as a 50 watt amp

where you get that math?


the Classic Myth busted.
here goes
Question ---I bought a 100-watt amp because my 50-watt wasn't loud enough.The 100 is louder but not by much. shouldn't it sound twice as loud?

Answer---No,When it come to sound the logic of 1+1=2 won't work.
A human preception of sound is a "logarithmic scale". People do not hear sound linearly. so doubling the wattage only increases by 3db.,what you might call a noticable difference. every ten db in gain is percieved as a doubling of loudness to the human ear. So a 100 watt amp is only 3db louder than a 50,a 200 watt amp 6db and a 400 watt amp would be close at 9db.

So the opening band playing at 95db is considered quiet compared to the headliner ripping your ears off at 105db..a percieved doubling of loudness.

[JohnnyCrash]

I guess if doubling the wattage gives you 3db and the logic above says we hear a 10db increase as twice as loud then:

5 to 10 watts +3
10 to 20 watts +3
20 to 40 watts +3
==
+9, add 10 watts to get you near +10?

I don't know...

[JCSouthpawtele]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

I guess if doubling the wattage gives you 3db and the logic above says we hear a 10db increase as twice as loud then:

5 to 10 watts +3
10 to 20 watts +3
20 to 40 watts +3
==
+9, add 10 watts to get you near +10?

I don't know...

Basically you just proved it. but look closer at my last paragraph. that being said if a 100-watt amp is only 3db louder than a 50-watter ..my Blackheart Little Giant 5 head is only a few db quieter then a Hotrod Deluxe.
now we could go on about Class-A Vs. Class-AB1 and its differences to how it reacts to the speaker..and yes a more sensitive speaker works wonders with low wattage amps. there are so many variable to talk about.

[Post Toastie]

Originally Posted by JCSouthpawtele

where you get that math?


the Classic Myth busted.
here goes
Question ---I bought a 100-watt amp because my 50-watt wasn't loud enough.The 100 is louder but not by much. shouldn't it sound twice as loud?

Answer---No,When it come to sound the logic of 1+1=2 won't work.
A human preception of sound is a "logarithmic scale". People do not hear sound linearly. so doubling the wattage only increases by 3db.,what you might call a noticable difference. every ten db in gain is percieved as a doubling of loudness to the human ear. So a 100 watt amp is only 3db louder than a 50,a 200 watt amp 6db and a 400 watt amp would be close at 9db.

So the opening band playing at 95db is considered quiet compared to the headliner ripping your ears off at 105db..a percieved doubling of loudness.

I did not say if you use two 5 watt amps they will be as loud as a 50 watt amp because they are 50% as loud each,I implied that a 15 watt amp is 40% louder than a 5 watt amp, not 3 times as loud.

[JCSouthpawtele]

Originally Posted by Post Toastie

I did not say if you use two 5 watt amps they will be as loud as a 50 watt amp because they are 50% as loud each,I implied that a 15 watt amp is 40% louder than a 5 watt amp, not 3 times as loud.

you didn't say anything wrong,I just used your math as a stepping stone.

[JohnnyCrash]

Other than speaker (sensitivity, frequencies, etc) and room - the most important factor is tone and band.

If you're in a punk or metal band, a 5 watt amp will not only NOT be loud enough, but its overdrive (even with a pedal) will not be there, nor will the bottom end.

I can get by with my 18w in my 3 piece - but it'd be a struggle at some (probably about half the local) clubs. I have since sold my 100 watt amps and the highest wattage I build now are 50w. Mainly because 50 watters have plenty of bottom end and I use gain/MV controls.

For recording, I don't use my 5-10 watt amps as often as I used to for dirty tracks. They often lack definition and bass. I do use them more for compressed cleans, weird vocal tracks, and sometimes even bass (yes, bass! HAHA). I've got pedals and attenuators, I've built all sorts of amps with VVR voltage regulators, master volume controls, PPIMV controls, and I finally built a 1x12" double layered isolation cab (its in the garage so the glue can dry).

5 watt amps have a place in every studio... then again so do 100w Marshalls :)

Live, a 100w (no attenuators or pedals) Marshall is painful (damn Chelsea Smiles) and a 5 watt most times wont cut it.

[muchxs]

Originally Posted by JCSouthpawtele

the opening band playing at 95db is considered quiet compared to the headliner ripping your ears off at 105db..a percieved doubling of loudness.

It's the other way around. The opening band will be at 112db because they're using our P.A.. We'll be playing at 95db because by that time the club owner is really pissed...

[jefrs]

I agree 5W does not a stage amp make.

But my 5W Laney L5T (Heritage G12H) is way louder than my 5W EVJh (8-in Elac) it's not just the speakers, the o/p transformer efficiency plays a big part. The Laney has acquitted itself honourably of a jam session with drummer and horns, the EVJ would have been inaudible. Both are quite loud enough (or quiet enough) for parlour practice.

My 30W ss AD30VT (G10M Greenback) also is only just loud enough for a small stage, whereas my Epi BC30 (2x12) will blow yer socks off in 15W mode. It's not always the watts but the way they're delivered: ss does not drive a speaker as efficiently as a transformer. Nevermind the watts, use a sound level meter.

I've met amps that only produce the tone at one volume setting, not very useful when you need to turn down, or up. And a BJ is not going to work when the other guy has a Marshall half-stack.

How come bass players don't have this problem?

Different jobs, different tools...

[JCSouthpawtele]

I've been stuck in that situation with the National guy hovering over my shoulder telling me a can't be too loud. I've also been system engineer on a rig and policed the whole show because of a volume rule for the venue'old theater turned into a club,plaster ceiling

[Texsunburst59]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

I have a 1.5 watt tube head and its still too loud for bedroom jamming. I plugged it into a 2x12" and whoa!

5 watt amps can be great for recording and practising, but for gigs? No way.

I have to disagree Johnny. I've gigged with both my Piggybacks on small to large venues including concert stages and had no problem with them at all. They were mic'd of course and were at the front of the stage tilted back and shooting back at me like a monitor. I used my pedal board with an assortment of OD's and rocked all night long many times.

[Del Pickup]

There are lovely looking amps, Tex.

I've never seen anything quite like them either here in NZ or in the UK.

[eddiewagner]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

Other than speaker (sensitivity, frequencies, etc) and room - the most important factor is tone and band.

totally. if you are in a band with acoustic guitars running through acoustic amps, a percussion guy and mellow music, 5 watts will be great to power up a lapsteel guitar. but an ac/dc-coverband will be hopelessly helpless.

[Southpaw Tele]

I use the Epiphone Valve Jr. combo on Sundays at church under the following conditions:

1.) Drums are Roland V-kit
2.) I'm right next to a grand piano (that is closed)
3.) Bass notes coming from electronic accordion (yes, we have an accordion player for bass and keyboard parts! It works, actually!)
4.) Acoustic guitar (worship leader) playing through the PA and monitored with his Acoustic (brand) 15 watt SS amp.
5.) The Valve Junior is mic'ed with an SM58 (the 57 is in the piano). The amp is angled so the sound gets me right in the face.

I have the volume set at about 1/3 the way up (about 8 o'clock?) and it's LOUD. Granted, electronic drum kit makes a huge difference, but I'm really pleased with (and surprised by) the 5 watts.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by Texsunburst59

I have to disagree Johnny. I've gigged with both my Piggybacks on small to large venues including concert stages and had no problem with them at all. They were mic'd of course and were at the front of the stage tilted back and shooting back at me like a monitor. I used my pedal board with an assortment of OD's and rocked all night long many times.

Mic'ed and for blues or classic rock - sure. And I'd love to use your Vibro Champs! Too cool.

I play ACDC/The Cult style rock, a little punk, and some near metal... for about half of that stuff I could use a Champ (and perhaps a few OD pedals), for the other half I couldn't.

I always forget what a cool ocllection of amps you have. Very cool, thanks for the photos.

[jarmijo]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

I have a 1.5 watt tube head and its still too loud for bedroom jamming. I plugged it into a 2x12" and whoa!

5 watt amps can be great for recording and practising, but for gigs? No way.

i have 2 amp: champ 600 5 watts and valve jr
they are made for practicing and recording

for gig.... you must use microphone and is OK

[booncrusher2000]

My 5 watt blackheart head is not much different than my 15 watt blackheart head in volume ( slightly louder) but it pushes my 4x12 cab better so i gig with this rig ....being an old marshall player(50 watt 1970'ish) master volume is not really for me but this amp does the deed full tilt!!!!! I play humble pie ,ac/dc cult like stuff too!! And speakers can really effect the whole set-up with any amp.....more speakers = louder to my ears anyway.........a 5watt head will be bigger sounding with more speakers.......but forget decent headroom ..wont happen at band volumes without mic....at least not for me...........my2cents!!!!!!!

[reverberocket2]

Well it definitely depends on your drummer and other instrumentation.

For me for rehearsals 5 watts through 2x12 or 4x12 with the volume on 6-7 is plenty loud enough. I'm not a really a clean player -- I like a gritty tone that can get cleanish by rolling down the volume or get really dirty when I smack it with an overdrive or fuzz.

I haven't had the stones to play a gig with the Vibro Champ yet, but I might yet -- virtually all of the gigs amps are miked and many are are smallish rooms

[mudbean]

The last time I played for the house band at the Sunday blues jam (a few weeks ago) a guy brought in an old Champ and we played some Tom Petty and Clapton ... the Champ performed like a, um, champ - he was getting excellent sounds on the overdriven chord leads in "Mary Jane's Last Dance." Easily kept up with drums/bass/another guitar.

mud

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

I guess if doubling the wattage gives you 3db and the logic above says we hear a 10db increase as twice as loud then:

5 to 10 watts +3
10 to 20 watts +3
20 to 40 watts +3
==
+9, add 10 watts to get you near +10?

I don't know...

I'm not buying it for a minute. A 3dB increase is more than just barely noticeable. You're not comparing apples to apples. Volume is not percieved as watts, and frequencies are percieved and reproduced at different volumes as well.

[gitold]

I have a Mesa 5.50 express.Now I have both ,5 and 50 watts in one amp .Very cool amp.Scream on the 5 watts sitch to 50 for lots of clean headroom.

[muchxs]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

I'm not buying it for a minute. A 3dB increase is more than just barely noticeable. You're not comparing apples to apples. Volume is not percieved as watts, and frequencies are percieved and reproduced at different volumes as well.

I don't know what you're not buying.

My AudioPhool buddy uses a McIntosh 500 watt per channel amp into a pair of Altec Voice of Theaters for his home stereo. The meters on the Mac are graduated logarithmically so they read .5 watt, 5 watts, 50 watts, 500 watts in what look to be linear gradations but if you look closely they're log. The VOTs put out around 103db 1w/1m with a lot of it coming from the compression drivers. BTW the horns are damped, it's custom and it sounds a lot better than stock. So... crank it up to .5 watts with the meter just tickling the .5 watt level. Then crank it up to 5 watts. Twice as loud, right? Well, it sounds louder...

(Loud enough for me in fact. Those Altecs are loud. 1 watt to an Altec is loud. Don't take my word for it, ask the neighbors. The neighbors know what's "loud", too. They run jacked up mud trucks, they shoot guns, they have a little band and they gig every Saturday night.)

Same deal with the next step up to 50 watts, the meters don't lie. That works out of 50 watts with a ton of headroom, there's no discernable distortion. We didn't spark up our RTA, had we did it would read out sound pressure levels anywhere in the room. In theory that's 103db spl + 10db + 10db which also in theory is the threshold of pain. Maybe I'm half deaf already but it's not painful to listen to at all. Difficult to talk over... It doesn't feel all that loud until I realized that I couldn't shout over it.

I guess it depends on what you're used to.

It seems to me the first 5 or so watts do most of the work and the rest are just along for the ride.