Going in-ear, best way to get rid of amp

[jbtocino]

My band is getting ready to go completely in-ear, and one of the consequences of this is I have to get rid of the amp on stage. Right now I play through an HRD with a tube screamer and a Route 66. I know this is probably an old topic, but I am trying to find the best way to get tone direct into the PA. BTW, we play 80% top 40 country.

Thanks,
John

[Silverface]

Why would in-ear monitors require you to stop using your amps? It seems like a bit of a drastic approach. I've used monitors (wedge or in-ear) for years with mic'd amps. There are ways to control stage volume with baffles in front of the amps and still maintain some level of tonal integrity.

FWIW no matter what "ampless" system you use, you're going to make huge tonal sacrifices - recording direct they work OK in some cases (nothing to write home about), but live I've never heard a direct-inject system that sounded like anything other than....a direct-inject system.

[Ringo]

I agree, why would you have to stop using your amp?Some friends of mine have been trying to work out the bugs with in ear monitors for about a year now.
They still have their amps on stage but don't get very much volume from them.
I realize the concept is that you reduce the stage volume and can hear vocals better - get a better mix etc.. but somehow it just doesn't "feel" right to me, more like listening to music through headphones IMO.
I like to hear and "feel" my amp , whether it's miked , DI box or whatever.

[jbtocino]

We as a band have decided to try and get rid of the amps. I have thought about using a podxt, but do not have a lot of experience with it.

Thanks
John

[Silverface]

We as a band have decided to try and get rid of the amps

I think I understood that as your concept - but I still have no idea why. What kind of music are you playig, and what's the situation that would make you want to do that?

As I said - I doubt if it's going to sound very good, so why that approach?

[ramblinmike]

hmmm i'll tell you right from the start that i have no experience with this, since i have never gigged before, but just the concept of getting rid of all of your amps and going direct as the entire band seems....no offense....lame. not that you guys are lame, but just that i can only assume it will sound lame. if amps were not needed, there wouldn't be any on stage. its not like they make it easier to move around the stage, or that they're easier to mic, etc. i dunno, maybe i'm just old fashioned, but as far as i know it wont sound very good at all. my .02, not as a gigging musician, but as a fan of good sounding live music. nothing beats the real thing IMO.

ps plus it might look kinda funny if there were no amps on stage....i know that when i'm at a show i always look around to see what amps the guitar players are using...i'd be mighty surprised if i were to look and not find anything. hah sorry for the rant. but hey if it sounds good, go for it.

[bluescube]

My experience with some bands that have come thru our churh using PODS, they sound fine through the PA. I would reccomend a POD, J-station, Digitech Genesis3 or a Behringer V-AMp Pro.

Tehse devices were designed for recording, and sending a convincing recorded sound to the PA will work fine.

[GilmourD]

Originally Posted by jbtocino

We as a band have decided to try and get rid of the amps. I have thought about using a podxt, but do not have a lot of experience with it.

Thanks
John

I have heard good things about the Pod XT, especially the Pro (rackmount) version. Weezer actually used these on two tours worldwide and were pretty happy with the tone. They're a band who's been pretty discriminatory in the past as far as amps, pretty much sticking with all tube Marshalls and Mesa/Boogies, and it worked out well for them. For part of the tour, they traveled around with and set up both the Pod Pros and the full amp setup, to see which worked best, and in most cases, they liked the Pod Pros because they were consistant and had good tone.

If they ever stopped tube manufacture completely, I'd get a Pod setup, because that's just about as close as you can get.

[Billy Claire]

I'd stay with the tube amp if I were you. Here's my advice:

1) Get a Marshall 6100 head or a 6101 combo. They were the 30th anniversary models and have a speaker emulator built-in to the amp. Which means you have a line level out that is emulated and sounds just like the amp does mic'd. Better, actually, and you can shut the speakers off! so it would perfectly suit your needs.

2) Or you could keep your amp and try to find a Marshall SE-100 speaker emulator- put it in between your head and speakers and do the same thing as number 1 above- you can shut off the speakers...

3) There's other things that do it as well like the Weber MASS, I believe, but I don't have first-hand experience with those.


Johnny A., by the way, goes direct with his 6101's live and uses the monitors for his sound- his amp speakers are shut off.

Billy

[Doc]

The PODxt works well in this situation. I ahve used one for several years (Old pod and now new). I have not used the inear monitors though. In a live show no one will be able to hear the diffierence. There are a lot of bands doing this these days.

This does not mean it has all the sound and feel of a tube amp. It is a pretty decent way to go though.

Dale

[Zac]

Keep using the amp. Mic it up an baffle it........

[Ben Harmless]

Don't be discouraged, I understand the desire to rid onesself of amps - they're nothing but reliability and volume problems waiting to happen wherever you show up.

Now, I'm a die hard tube amp fan, but if I were going ampless, I'd try as many Tech21 (Sansamp) products as I could, and then Line6 (POD, and who's website isn't responding at the moment), Vox (Tonelab) and anything else I could find.

My ultimate choice for "ampless" though, would actually be with an amp. Take your favorate amp head (or small combo such as the Blues Jr, etc) and run it into an attenuator/dummy load such as the Weber MASS, and then into a speaker emulator. You might have to throw in an EQ as well, but maybe not. You won't be truly "ampless" but you also won't have any stage volume issues because you have no speakers.

A friend of mine has a Groove Tubes speaker emulator in his studio that also works as a dummy load. I haven't tried it yet, but it looks promising. A little on the expensive side though.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, there's also the Demeter Silent Speaker Chamber.

[halouis]

somethign about seeing a band on stage with no amps kind of freaks me out. it's like seeing a band w/o a drummer (using a drum machine). somethign just aint right.

anyhow i prefer real amps but best of luck. i can say for sure the Sansamp stuff is killer. i love my TM10. and it does the direct thing nicely.

[bluescube]

Originally Posted by halouis

somethign about seeing a band on stage with no amps kind of freaks me out.

What about Acoustic guitars? 8)

We typically run them into a direct box to FOH.

Seeing the guys with gutiars in their hands and using a POD or other preamp device is still better than seeing a guy scratching turntables

[mark norwine]

my experience with the "whole band goes direct" thing is simple: it works really well ***IF*** you have a great PA..... {meyer, etc.}

if you're doing the "box-on-a-pole" thing, you probablly don't have a system that's good enough to handle the full dynamics reqauired. even if you're miking your amps now, the PA is only a suplement. to put 100% of your backline through the mains is a helluva job for the system.

also, you MUST have a great {not good} soundman who works for you & knows every nuaince of your set. anything less & all bets are off.

personally, i'd keep the amps....

[porklash]

I have been using a Tech 21 PSA-1 live and there´s some things that bothers me about that.

You can´t go to your amp to hear yourself better.
If you like me run around like a maniac you´ll find that the monitors doesn´t spread the sound as good as an amp but that wouldn´t be a problem for you going "in ear"...

pEr

[Mike Dickerson]

If you use the POD small gain structure changes can sound blaringly louder or softer. My band used in ears and I always stuck my amp off stage or baffled. The other guitar used a POD and I ended up keeeping him out of my mix cause you never knew when it was gonna blow my head off. My amp was always consistent sounding in my ears since itwas close mic'd that took the room accoustics out of the picture.

[bluescube]

My experience last night:

We had Sanctus Real play in our church last night. Thier rider said they were using in-ears.

Our house system is 10,000 watts of Crest Audio amps, 6 EAW KF695 mains, 4 EAW SB250 subs and a 40 channel TAC Scorpion2 console. We seat 2200.

This is the gear they hauled in:

Marshall 100 watt Super Lead Plexi + 4x12
VOX AC-30
G-K head an two 4x10 cabs
Thier drumset.

Since they were using in-ears, I thought thier amp setup was a little "large".....but, after they got all set up and ready for soundcheck, they blew me away. Without any PA yet, they were all balanced so wellbetween each other to the drumset...it was so cool to hear that. Needless to say, the concert was easy since amplifying a good balance makes like easier and no monitor wedges to muddy things up.

[Wally]

Just a personal observation, but if my band agrees to play without amps, then the drummer is going to be hitting electronic pads. Let's face it, the drummer is a large part of the 'massive volume' required; and I for one would not be willing to give up what may be the most important part of the tone chain and still have to listen to a drummer beating on a full acoustic set up drums. My thought is to play with a good drummer who doesn't have to use 2X4's for sticks and hit the skins at full force in order to think he is playing drums. Then, the guitarists and bassist can use less volume and sanity reigns. IMHO, the amp is as indespensible as the guitar....it is part of the chain. If you forego that part, you lose some of the qualities that only a tube amp can yield.
That said, one of my customers by necessity uses a Pod along with a Mesa V-2 pedal into the PA. This is for his small group gigs where he runs the sound from the stage...the monitors tell him exactly what is going out of the mains. It fits the bill, but he certainly doesn't relish the loss of tone compared to what he gets from his tube amps on the larger gigs.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Wally

Just a personal observation, but if my band agrees to play without amps, then the drummer is going to be hitting electronic pads. Let's face it, the drummer is a large part of the 'massive volume' required; and I for one would not be willing to give up what may be the most important part of the tone chain and still have to listen to a drummer beating on a full acoustic set up drums. My thought is to play with a good drummer who doesn't have to use 2X4's for sticks and hit the skins at full force in order to think he is playing drums. Then, the guitarists and bassist can use less volume and sanity reigns. IMHO, the amp is as indespensible as the guitar....it is part of the chain. If you forego that part, you lose some of the qualities that only a tube amp can yield.
That said, one of my customers by necessity uses a Pod along with a Mesa V-2 pedal into the PA. This is for his small group gigs where he runs the sound from the stage...the monitors tell him exactly what is going out of the mains. It fits the bill, but he certainly doesn't relish the loss of tone compared to what he gets from his tube amps on the larger gigs.

I often play with keys and the drums and bass are backing tracks we create. We have a lot of control over our drummer! I agre that if the guitars are going ampless, that should apply to all involved inclusding the drummer.

You can get an OK sound out of low volume amp or a POD. But, you need some volume if you need power tube distortion from atube amp. There is not really a way around that issue. Even a Champ can be pretty loud in some settings. So if the Champ is too loud to work, it is time for digital.

Dale

[e-merlin]

Beware the danger of going in-ear! Tinitus. The reason? You'll turn up the volume, your ears will get used to that volume and you'll turn it up some more...The cycle keeps repeating until two or three years from now you'll have a constant ringing in both ears 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

[rcrecelius]

I have used IEM's quite a bit in the last 8 years...the key is getting a good sound check and even then, your ear mon will sound different in the last set, sometimes even the first set! I used a THD Hotplate for a long time to tame my twin reverb down to reasonable levels, and it worked pretty good most of the time. I have found that if you are going to have your guitar in your ears you must keep the volume of the amp down or it will start to "cancel" the signal in your monitors causing you to turn it up even more. And face it...it aint gonna sound as good in them monitors, no way no how... but if you sing you will enjoy the ear monitors and learn to live with the guitar sound.
Nowadays if I have to use ear monitors I only use one side with the vocals in it and leave my other ear open to hear my amp.

[crooktele24]

I'm going to echo the sentiment that you keep your amps. We recently switched over to IEM and I really like them, but at the same time they make me feel isolated from the crowd and I'm having a hard time getting the same level of motivation to play as I did before. The first time we used them something caused the signal to clip on the recievers and they went out. If I hadn't been using my amp I wouldn't have had the slightest clue as to what anyone except the drummer was playing. If you sing they're great, but if you are solely a guitar player you'll have to sacrifice a little in terms of volume mostly.

[Brick]

We go ampless most of the time. A real good PA with a ton of headroom and a subwoofer is a must. Our drummer has a top o the line Roland e kit and guitarists play through top flight Mesa and Digitec preamps, the ones that are about a grand. Bass podxt for bass. Monitor wedges all around. Lucrative corporate gig types like the volume control. You will get many complements on not being too loud, and the vocals can me mixed up front with minimal feedback issues. Your mixer from your practices will be preset to sound great with a minimum of tweaking. Downside? The 2 or three guitar freaks like us in the audience will be let down not to hear that old Fender or boutique beauty sing. The other 98% of your audience will not know the difference. The other negative is that it is very expensive.

[Tim Armstrong]

Another way to go is use a nice small amp like a Champ or a Princeton, and mic it up. Not much more load-in than using a preamp or pod or such...

Cheers, Tim