Is the Pro Jr considered a British voiced amp?

[Steve G]

I should point out, although thats probably already obvious, I dont know much about amps.

So, Im looking at the specs for this new 2nd hand PJ Ive bought, and it says it uses 2 EL84s. Arent they a 'British' sounding valve associated with Vox/Marshall etc??

If so, why did Fender issue this amp with this particular configuration?

Just curious, thanks.

[Tim Armstrong]

I find the Pro Junior to have a pretty classic "Fender" sound, actually. I think the preamp circuit probably has more to do with the overall tonal flavor than the particular power tubes. As for why they went with EL84 tubes, my guess is that there are a lot more of them available for cheap!

Tim

[Steve G]

Thanks Tim.
It sounds pretty Fender-y to me but i thought maybe I was missing something. It does have quite a barky sound though, and not quite as bright, clean, transparent sounds as I can get from my blues deluxe for example.
Anyway, I feel a little better educated on tube amps now.

PS, what happened to the 'cheers' in your signature? its been a fixture ever since I joined here...

[Natstrat79]

Circuit design has more of an effect on sound than tube type, although some might disagree. El84's do not by themselves make for a british sounding amp. As it was said before the PJ does not sound british. I've always thought of the PJ as having a "tweed" sound.

[Steve G]

Originally Posted by Natstrat79

Circuit design has more of an effect on sound than tube type, although some might disagree. El84's do not by themselves make for a british sounding amp. As it was said before the PJ does not sound british. I've always thought of the PJ as having a "tweed" sound.

Thanks for that.
NB. Despite being British I really have little affection for 'British' sounding amps!

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Steve G

PS, what happened to the 'cheers' in your signature? its been a fixture ever since I joined here...

I guess I just got bored with it! I have to admit, just signing my posts "Tim" seems so... stark!

Toodles, Tim

(ew, that doesn't work either!)

[Steve G]

How about TTFN?

Thats Ta Ta for now in quaint ye olde English.

[fancychords]

EL 84's were origonally used in the fender tremolux amps...

[Big John]

Originally Posted by Steve G

Thanks for that.
NB. Despite being British I really have little affection for 'British' sounding amps!

+1, i always hear amps from the UK as having a 'neutral' kind of bland sound, yes, i know folk around the world love them and good for them but i have never really been a fan.
Funny thing was, in the 60's and 70's i would have walked a mile for a Blonde Bassman and we had US servicemen coming into the local music store and marveling at the wall of Marshall's for sale which i could never really figure.
FWIW i put those little 'Jr's' in the 'small tweed' category of my brain.

[Billm]

EL 84's were originally used in the fender tremolux amps...

Not so. The Tremolux used a pair of 6V6s. The only Fender amps to use the EL84 are the Blues Junior and Pro Junior.

[twangcaster1]

Naw, it's pretty route 66 sounding, to me.

[Steve G]

Originally Posted by Big John

+1, i always hear amps from the UK as having a 'neutral' kind of bland sound, yes, i know folk around the world love them and good for them but i have never really been a fan.
Funny thing was, in the 60's and 70's i would have walked a mile for a Blonde Bassman and we had US servicemen coming into the local music store and marveling at the wall of Marshall's for sale which i could never really figure.
FWIW i put those little 'Jr's' in the 'small tweed' category of my brain.

Glad its not just me John.

To each his own of course, but Id rather have a Fender style amp any day.

Adulation from folks in the US for Uk amps makes me think of the adulation all the great British rock guitarists get (except for Jeff Beck) from US players when Id rather hear Paul Burlison, James Burton, B B King, or any number of American players.

Just MO of course. A wee tad off track there...

[Rumble]

Originally Posted by Steve G

To each his own of course, but Id rather have a Fender style amp any day.

Adulation from folks in the US for Uk amps makes me think of the adulation all the great British rock guitarists get (except for Jeff Beck) from US players when Id rather hear Paul Burlison, James Burton, B B King, or any number of American players.

Ha! I dig the British amps (got a Vox and 3 Marshalls) and the Queen's guitarists- Keefe, Page, Gilmore, Strummer, the Young's (Neil, Angus, and Malcolm; they count, right?)

[Steve G]

Originally Posted by Rumble

Ha! I dig the British amps (got a Vox and 3 Marshalls) and the Queen's guitarists- Keefe, Page, Gilmore, Strummer, the Young's (Neil, Angus, and Malcolm; they count, right?)

So its you!!!

Yes , they all count. I actually can see their appeal but those players just aren't my cup of tea. I was born in the wrong country at the wrong time!

[Gary in Boston]

Hey Ta Ta For Now is what Sally Field use to say on Gidget.
Gary

[fancychords]

Billm..I read that in the fairly new Fender Amp book...

[jrfrond]

The Pro Jr. front-end is classic Fender voicing, essentially a Tweed variation, but you can point it in the general direction of Heathrow Airport by updating the preamp with a 220K plate resistor, 2.7K cathode resistor and .68uF cathode cap, plus a 500pF Bright Cap across the volume pot. It won't exactly "Marshallize" it, but it will add the flavor. This same mod works even better in the Blues Jr., which has the tone stack to scoop the mids.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Billm

Not so. The Tremolux used a pair of 6V6s. The only Fender amps to use the EL84 are the Blues Junior and Pro Junior.

Actually, there was a version of the 6G9 Tremolux that used 6BQ5/EL84 tubes in '61.I agree with Tim that the circuit has much to do with tone.

[jhundt]

yes, thanks Wally... if you just refrain from using European terminology the exotic EL-84 becomes a good-old home-grown 6BQ5 and is a fine old USA tube. I think they were used by several US amp builders back in the 50s.

[Wally]

jhundt, indeed. Gibson was prone to use 6BQ5's moreso than Fender...especially in the early '60's. I have an old Harmon-Kardon stereo with 6BQ5/EL-84's. Also, I have a Zenith portable stereo hi-fi unit that runs EL-84/6BQ5's, also. My latest tube stereo find is a Voice of Music component system from '62 or so that runs 6AQ5's.

[Walter Broes]

Pro Jr feels and sounds like a tweed amp to me, but then so do early Marshalls to an extent...

[Billm]

> 6G9 Tremolux

Amazing. You learn something every day.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Walter Broes

Pro Jr feels and sounds like a tweed amp to me, but then so do early Marshalls to an extent...

When you compare the schematic of the 5F6A Bassman to that of the
JTM-45, you understand why those early Marshalls sound like the Tweed Bassman and the 5F8 Twin.

[nomadh]

I think the el 84 mostly goes with cheap. I own all el84 amps without trying for it. And I'm very cheap. I'm looking to get some type of big bottle amp yet they always seem more expensive and I find a suitable less expensive amp that just happens to have el84s.
Fender was just saving some money.

[Rumble]

Originally Posted by nomadh

I think the el 84 mostly goes with cheap. I own all el84 amps without trying for it. And I'm very cheap. I'm looking to get some type of big bottle amp yet they always seem more expensive and I find a suitable less expensive amp that just happens to have el84s.
Fender was just saving some money.

I think the point was that Fender didn't use El84s very often. They did base their production on the least expensive, most efficient manufacturing methods, but they used 6V6s and 6L6s mostly.

El84 amps aren't necessarily cheap; they're less powerful. Two El84s combine for about half the wattage of El34s or 6L6s. Two amps that run El84s that are definitely not cheap amps are the Marshall 1974 and Vox AC15. But both push less than 20 watts. Marshalls with two El34s push 50 watts and Fenders with two 6L6s push about 45-60 watts. A very loud, high quality, and fairly expensive amp that uses El84s is the Vox AC30, but it uses four of them to get the volume. It is renowned for having a unique tone.

So it's certainly an over-generalization (and inaccurate) to say that El84s are synonymous with cheap or that Fender used them for that reason.

[Wally]

Isn't the EL-84 very similar to the 6V6 in performance specs but in a 9-pin tube?
I would think also that FEnder was probably trying to edge in on the Vox-associated EL-84 craze???

[giantslayer]

Originally Posted by Rumble

I think the point was that Fender didn't use El84s very often. They did base their production on the least expensive, most efficient manufacturing methods, but they used 6V6s and 6L6s mostly.

El84 amps aren't necessarily cheap; they're less powerful. Two El84s combine for about half the wattage of El34s or 6L6s. Two amps that run El84s that are definitely not cheap amps are the Marshall 1974 and Vox AC15. But both push less than 20 watts. Marshalls with two El34s push 50 watts and Fenders with two 6L6s push about 45-60 watts. A very loud, high quality, and fairly expensive amp that uses El84s is the Vox AC30, but it uses four of them to get the volume. It is renowned for having a unique tone.

So it's certainly an over-generalization (and inaccurate) to say that El84s are synonymous with cheap or that Fender used them for that reason.

+1 on that. I thought that EL84s had less gain/headroom than 6L6's, which is why they're used on smaller, lower volume amps (like the Pro Jr).

[Scott S]

Originally Posted by Wally

Isn't the EL-84 very similar to the 6V6 in performance specs but in a 9-pin tube?
I would think also that FEnder was probably trying to edge in on the Vox-associated EL-84 craze???

Fender did some interesting things. Along the way, you can kinda see them experimenting, and fixing mistakes when the need arose, like when they tried to get away with leaving off the grid stoppers on the AA763 amps, only to add them back pronto in the AB763's!

My guess here is that they thought that 6BQ5's might help them make the Tremolux a little cheaper than when it ran 6V6's. (Perhaps 6BQ5's got really cheap in 1960?) Then, they realized that they needed to increase the power a little more in order to help sales, so they switched to 6L6's.

Are there very many (any?) of the 6BQ5-equipped Tremoluxes in existence? I wonder how many 6V6-equipped 5E4A Supers went out the door, too...

- Scott

[Wally]

Scott, my reference to the VOx/EL-84 'craze was pionted at the current market.
The '61 Tremolux 6G9 sort of preceeded the British invasion and therefore also predated anybody's fascination with Vox amps carrying EL-84's.
RE: the 6G9 and 6G9A that followed it...the 6G9A carried 6L6's instead of 6V6's as were found in the tweed Tremolux.