Crate V50 2x12 Palomino: Twin Reverb

[umasstele]

So the story begins...

Mid october, my parents bought my a Crate V50 1x12 for my birthday/christmas. This was meant to replace my Vox cambridge 30 combo which went down in flames (quite literally!).

I wanted a twin reverb pretty bad, but at that time it was not even close to being an option. Fast foward 2 weeks- the new crate arrives, I try it out and love it. Plenty of volume, pretty heavy but not too bad. I use this amp for about a month with my band practicing at low volumes/recording. Then I take it to a gig....

During the third song, the amp dies. Figuired it was loose tubes because whenever the kick drum was hit it turned off and on, BUT I was wrong. Its past 30 days by now, so the music store refers us to Crate customer service.
I cannot say enough how helpful and friendly crate was to deal with. Upon instruction, my father and I open up the amp to check tubes. Doing so we find the power supply board burned and melted- SO crate tells us to send it back.

They V50 1x12's were backordered, so instead for our trouble they sent us a BIG upgrade: A V50 2x12 Palomino.


I pull my new amp out of its box for the first time yesterday, plug it in...I hate it. Not anywhere near loud enough for what I need, and I simply dont care for the sound of it. I am HEAVILY disappointed, as I really wanted to like this amp.

Im back to looking for a Twin Reverb again. After several craigslist adds where people are looking to trade, I've found they want a physicaly smaller amp. Im completely stuck here.

Any thoughts of this? Will a twin distort with a tube screamer? Tell me more about the twin from someone who has only heard them, never played one.

Words of wisdom much appreciated!!

[Guitar_Ninja]

It'll distort with a pedal easily, though if you like the sound of an amp on the verge of breakup being pushed over the edge by an overdrive pedal you'll have a tough time of it. You have to crank a Twin to an ungodly level to get it on the verge of breakup.

[fauxsuper]

I know Crate watts are not quite the same as Fender watts, but if 50 watts isn't anywhere near enough, the Twin will at least have to be in the area, particularly with a decent overdrive goosing it, where it's beginning to sing.

It's going to be loud, but it sounds if that's what you might need. If your lead tone is of the "edge of distortion" variety, it should work. If you need total, all out legato enabling saturation, it's going to be RFL: your band mates and most club owners will hate you. Every soundman that sees you carting that amp in the door is going to make a mental note to tell you to turn down. (They'll all think "Oh god, a young kid with a Twin", that was me 40 years ago, so I speak from experience.) Might was well wear a shirt with REALLY LOUD GUITAR PLAYER on it.

There are some intemediary stages available here. Vibrolux, Pro, and Super Reverbs, in order of loudness (and a plethora of other amps from Fender and others) would all be possible alternatives if you don't quite need what a Twin has to offer in terms of sheer volume and headroom. I'd skip the Vibrolux if you're in a Ted Nugent Tribute Band.

There's a lot of ground between the Crate and the Twin.

[popthree]

you like the 1x12 version of the v50 but not the 2x12 version ? isn't it the same amp with an extra speaker ?

[strat a various]

uma
There are a group of folks around here that dig Crates, I would guess because you can get a "real" tube amp CHEAP. Problem is, they are cheap. I see amps at gigs every week, usually only see Crates at blues jams. I hear about them breaking down a lot, see them crapping out fairly regularly. Honestly, I'll keep my opinion re: Crate tone, to myself, but I absolutely won't trust them at a paying gig or recording session. Period. Ever.
Have you tried a Peavey Classic 50? Peavey nouveau tweeds are pretty good amps and regularly available used. I use a silverface Twin, and I can handle the volume. I just turn the volume knob down. Want overdrive, get a Tube Screamer. I like the new TRRIs a lot, too. See them used a lot, cause they're HEAVY and LOUD. Get professional gear, man.

[umasstele]

fauxsuper,

Unfortunately, I DO need that volume. I play with a large horn band in our college's arena every week for sporting events. Also everyone in the band including the bass is mic-ed except for myself and the loud drummer. This isnt by my choice, the PA guy got mad when I didnt have a XLR line out on my '67 Standel! Personaly, Id rather not have to deal with being in the hands of the mixer as well, just personal preference. Also, I do like the edge of break up tone for my solos, and its also important for me to have nice clean sounds as we play funk, rock, heavy rock, jazz and soul songs. I appreciate your advice, sounds like you were in my shoes awhile back!! My other amp is a Traynor bassmaster with a 6x10 cab...so I guess I Should get that t-shirt! haha!


popthree:

As far as I can tell, no. The 2x12 has more sophisticated EQ, alot more controls, etc...basically ment to be the big brother. The 1x12 was much cleaner and possibly cut through more to my ears. But, this could be wrong because as I said, I only used it at gigging volume once!

[jh45gun]

I have been saying here for a while now that crates are not that great of an amp.

[fauxsuper]

"Unfortunately, I DO need that volume. I play with a large horn band in our college's arena every week for sporting events. Also everyone in the band including the bass is mic-ed except for myself and the loud drummer. This isnt by my choice, the PA guy got mad when I didnt have a XLR line out on my '67 Standel!"

Wow, I remember playing withthe stage band at my high school and remember how much power it took to be heard. One of the reasons Fender made the twin in the first place.

Find yourself a Nice Twin (the best buys are Silver Faced ones) and you'll have a hand wired amp that will last a lifetime. Get a good pedal for overdrive. You can also use an attenuator like a HotPlate or Weber Mass. If you don't get carried away with it (like trying to get it down to a whisper to use as a bedroom amp) they can allow you to tame the Twin. There's also the trick of disabling two of the tubes and one of the speakers and you now have a 50 watt amp.

You're young enough that the amp's weight won't send you to a chiropracter.
The flip side of this is that a twin can sound glorius when you get it up to around 5 or 6 on the volume knob. There's also something to be said for learning to get a sound without a lot of gain. (BB King comes first to mind.) I've heard plenty of people get astonishing sounds out of an amp without cranking it. There are few devices on the face of the earth that can provide a better clean rhythm sound than a Twin.

Another posibility is using an amp modeler as a way to get your sound, (a POD or you can find a Vox Tonelab on E-bay for under $150.) and use the Twin as sort of a PA. The tubes in the signal path will warm up the digital sound and with some careful knob twiddling, you can end up getting a very good simulatiuon of a cranked twin at a volume that will make the sound guy smile.

Finally, there's a reason the Twin is a classic amp. They've gone a little out of fashion right now and have been saddled with the "heavy and loud" albatross. But that CAN work to your advantage. Right now a Twin is sort of like 60's muscle cars were in the early 70's when gasoline doubled in price. You could buy, say, a SS 396 Malibu for around a grand. It's probably a $30K car today. Find a nice one and maybe you can send your kids to college. (Wouldn't count on that, actually.) But you will have an amp that is at least worth Something when that Crate is in a landfill somewhere.

[umasstele]

I have been talking to a guy in the area who wants to trade me for his twin.

Its a 1970 that has been blackfaced, re-caped.
Has the origional Utah's as well.

We've decided to meet and trade if we are both happy with the way they sound.


Is this a good deal? (I know this is a dumb question as its only a deal if Im happy with it, but is there anything I should know about a 1970 twin?)

[backalleyblues]

Take the '70 twin, especially if it's anywhere near straight-up (doubt that, though). Might want to trade out the speakers, Utahs aren't bad by any means, but there are others that might be better. Assuming it's a real '70, it won't have a master volume. Just make sure the 'verb and tremolo are working (good points to knock down on if they're not, and they're usually not too hard to fix). This should be the amp you're looking for...

Franc Robert

[umasstele]

Thanks! That is the exact type of info I was looking for!

I appreciate everyone's help and insight, I will keep you guys posted and put up some pics when I get it!

[GoldieLocks]

I hope the twin you try is to your liking. Then your quest is over.

Personally I've never played a fender twin that I liked. I would recommend you seriously consider what kind of music you want to make before getting one. I love super reverbs more myself. Or a good bassman. Even better - get a Marshall or vox.

I'm just curious what type of tone you really want to get out of a twin? I've tried a few overdrive pedals into twins and thought it was just struggling to sound natural.

[fauxsuper]

Well, we know that Umastele has the following requirements:

Also, I do like the edge of break up tone for my solos, and its also important for me to have nice clean sounds as we play funk, rock, heavy rock, jazz and soul songs.

Since he's stated the need for an amp that can play both clean and loud as well, a Twin moves to the top of the list of amps that are even remotely portable. Since it looks like he already might have found one:


What he now needs is advice from people who are currently using Twins and how to best get that "edge of breakup" tone when he needs it. I listed some ideas in an earlier post, but I haven't used a twin regularly in over 15 years, so I'm 100% certain that someone out there has a more current solution that I do.

Another one I didn't list is the two-amp solution. The last time I played with a band that had horns I used my Bandmaster Reverb feeding a Fender 4 x 12" cab for rhythm and a silverface Deluxe Reverb for solos. I just used a Morley A-B box to switch between the two. It's a lot of stuff to drag around but a very organic sounding solution.

At any rate: Twin users, give the soon-to-be Twin owner some advice on how to get the best out of it.

[strat a various]

There's a misconception prevalent among players who don't play a wide variety of gigs at different venues. They tend to ALWAYS recommend getting clean tones by backing off the volume on the guitar, then adding some dirt by diming the instrument volume into an already overdriven tube amp. Good advice for some settings, but it presumes that a player will always require lower volume for clean tones ...quiet passages, rhythm playing, etc.
At a lot of gigs, it's the loudest parts of the chart that really need to be clean, such as cutting through a horn section with scratchy rhythm, or wa-wa, clean jazzy stuff over horns or a busy organ, or clean country picking.
That's where a Twin shines.
The guitar guy in classic Tower of Power, Bruce Conte, got a great "edge of overdrive, still pretty clean" sound by cranking a blackface Super Reverb. To be heard over a loud group, he was playing at surprisingly high volume. A Super Reverb will do loud and clean, especially a silverface, so will a Pro Reverb, but they're as heavy and unwieldy as a Twin. They break up a little earlier, but still at a very loud volume.
The beauty of a Twin, you have a "clean slate" to work on. Try some different distortion pedals ...there are some great ones out there. I've had good luck with 135 watt ultra-linear Twins, red knob Twins, 212 HD130s (the MusicMan version).
As you play more different venues, you'll value an amp with extra horsepower and great tone. Michael Bloomfield usually used a blackface Twin, then a silverface. Listen to his live stuff for some outta-sight tones.

[umasstele]

Im a huge fan of the supersession album as well as "Live at Bill Grahmn's Fillmore West" With Taj Mahal and Nick Gravenities so I am hoping to be able to coax some bloomfield sounds out of this thing with my les paul. Does anybody know the settings he used? I heard a rumor awhile back that it was everything on 10 and reverb on 2.


Anyone ever use a marshall bluesbreak II pedal into one by any chance? I use the boost part of the pedal almost exclusively, and Ive gotten it to make some amps break up pretty nice, hoping to use that here...

[fauxsuper]

[quote=umasstele;1573908] Does anybody know the settings he used? I heard a rumor awhile back that it was everything on 10 and reverb on 2.
QUOTE]

I've heard the same thing, but I'd wager he twiddled the knobs to fit the situation. A twin with volume on 10 will be painfully loud. Sound pressure levels that would get you thrown out the door nowadays were tolerated back then, as well. So, unless you contemplate playing the Fillmore in 1967, I'd be open to experiment. Running the bass on 10 with the volume up high is likely to get some interesting sounds out of your Utah speakers and even send them to their doom, so use caution, especially if you're using some type of pedal to goose the front end. I had my first silverface twin for 6 years and destroyed 4 speakers with it. (see sentance #3, above)

I used to set mine on 7, 5 and 3.5 (Treble, Mid, Bass) and reverb of around 3: but I always changed them from there depending on volume levels, room size, etc. But, I'd take all settings that you read, (Including the ones I just mentioned) with a grain of salt: there are too many variables for them to be of anything but a rough guide.

Remember, we're talking about the era when people first began to use multiple Marshall stacks on stage, and most PA systems were not very good, often only amplifying the vocals. (and often lacking any monitors on stage) There were a number of strange rigs used to get the sound to the last row in a hockey arena or outdoor festival. Here's John Cipollina of Quicksilver Messenger Service's rig:

http://www.johncipollina.com/images/ampStack01.jpg

I bet if I plugged into it I wouldn't sound a thing like him.

I'm betting that Marshall pedal will work quite well to slam the front of that Twin. If you've liked the way it's sounded with other tube amps, you'll probably like it in this case. My experience is that Twins respond quite well to pedals of all sorts used in boost mode. Nearly every guy I've seen use a Twin seems to use some sort of pedal in front of it