Which British-Voiced, 18 watt-ish amp for me?

[Iceman 420]

Yeah, I thought I had decided on A/B'ing a Roccaforte Custom 40 and an Allen Old Flame for my future rig, but I'm now looking towards a more...I guess "raw" kind of sound. Instead of the Old Flame, I've decided (yeah, another firm decision), on the Hot Fudge w/Nuts which is based on the brown Deluxe Reverb.

As for the Rocca, I'm now looking at the Custom 18, but are still considering other amps around that price range. So, I'm looking for something around 18 watts, British-voiced, preferably one channel, and around $1500. So the ones that I'm aware of are the Roccaforte Custom 18, Dr. Z Carmen Ghia, Budda Supedrive, Orange AD15, and the Brown Note 18. Less controls the better, so a volume and a tone would be very sexy.

I play stuff like Hendrix, Cream, more modern blues-rock bands like The Black Crowes and such as well.

Update: After doing a bit more researching and such, I am currently thinking of getting the GDS S/C 1x12 combo. From what I hear, the kit itself comes with excellent instructions and manuals. I have little experience with electronics other than wiring my Esquire. Should I opt for the kit or everything pre-built?

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by Iceman 420

Yeah, I thought I had decided on A/B'ing a Roccaforte Custom 40 and an Allen Old Flame for my future rig, but I'm now looking towards a more...I guess "raw" kind of sound. Instead of the Old Flame, I've decided (yeah, another firm decision), on the Hot Fudge w/Nuts which is based on the brown Deluxe Reverb.

As for the Rocca, I'm now looking at the Custom 18, but are still considering other amps around that price range. So, I'm looking for something around 18 watts, British-voiced, preferably one channel, and around $1500. So the ones that I'm aware of are the Roccaforte Custom 18, Dr. Z Carmen Ghia, Budda Supedrive, Orange AD15, and the Brown Note 18. Less controls the better, so a volume and a tone would be very sexy.

I play stuff like Hendrix, Cream, more modern blues-rock bands like The Black Crowes and such as well.

Do you know about the 18 watt Marshall and clones/ offshoots? (I'm gonna assume you do as you specifically mentioned the number 18 with respect to watts.) But in case you didn't, you can't swing a cat these days without hitting someone making one. The ones I've heard of (but most of them I have not heard) include, in no particular order: Marshall, GDS, Trinity, Blankenship, Fargen, Reinhardt, Bacino, Texeira, and many others. Some will come in near your budget, others will not.

Let's see, Matamp (Orange-derived in lineage) makes a couple of lower watt models. Not sure if they have any around the 18 watt zone though. Reeves makes a HiWattish influenced one. There's a review of it floating around the web from one of the guitar mags which is how I found out about a bunch of ones I've mentioned.

As for Vox influenced/ derived amps, there's probably even more of those than the Marshall 18 watters. Matchless, Bad Cat, some of the Dr Zs, Vox of course.

So, which British sound do you want?

Yeah, I know, this does NOT narrow things down, does it. But the point is, there is a staggering amount of choice. And I'm kinda in the same boat - looking for something in the 15 - 20 watt zone that does the British, for lack of a better term, gain, although I've pretty much settled on a Marshall-derived one. (Although the Reeves looks kinda interesting.)

Another thing about the Marshall (and copies) is that they can have the simple volume, tone arrangement on one or both inputs, with the second input having tremolo. Or, sometimes they're modded to lose the trem on the second set of inputs but install a treble, mid, bass tone stack.

Ok, now you've got me off to see what a Brown Note 18 is.

Cheers,
Geoff

[Guitfiddler]

Don't forget to check out Samamp. The "british voiced" versions Sam Timberlake builds are Marshall based and sweet. The pull activated gain switch is particularly nice, and the variable amplitude features are also great. Check 'em out if you can.

[stax]

After using a Fender pro for most of my playing career I built an 18-watt Marshall clone from a U.K. kit supplier and never looked back.
I have two now one with el 84s and one with a more American voice with 6v6s, that’s all I ever use live and there’s seldom need to mike them up.
One tone one volume and that’s it but the sound is awesome.
Brown note was regular contributor on 18watt.com who went on to making amps and kits.
Stax

[Iceman 420]

Originally Posted by Geoff738

Do you know about the 18 watt Marshall and clones/ offshoots? (I'm gonna assume you do as you specifically mentioned the number 18 with respect to watts.) But in case you didn't, you can't swing a cat these days without hitting someone making one. The ones I've heard of (but most of them I have not heard) include, in no particular order: Marshall, GDS, Trinity, Blankenship, Fargen, Reinhardt, Bacino, Texeira, and many others. Some will come in near your budget, others will not.

Let's see, Matamp (Orange-derived in lineage) makes a couple of lower watt models. Not sure if they have any around the 18 watt zone though. Reeves makes a HiWattish influenced one. There's a review of it floating around the web from one of the guitar mags which is how I found out about a bunch of ones I've mentioned.

As for Vox influenced/ derived amps, there's probably even more of those than the Marshall 18 watters. Matchless, Bad Cat, some of the Dr Zs, Vox of course.

So, which British sound do you want?

Yeah, I know, this does NOT narrow things down, does it. But the point is, there is a staggering amount of choice. And I'm kinda in the same boat - looking for something in the 15 - 20 watt zone that does the British, for lack of a better term, gain, although I've pretty much settled on a Marshall-derived one. (Although the Reeves looks kinda interesting.)

Another thing about the Marshall (and copies) is that they can have the simple volume, tone arrangement on one or both inputs, with the second input having tremolo. Or, sometimes they're modded to lose the trem on the second set of inputs but install a treble, mid, bass tone stack.

Ok, now you've got me off to see what a Brown Note 18 is.

Cheers,
Geoff

As you can see, I listed a few of the 18 watters that I do know and thank you for recommending others, though a few aren't exactly in my budget.

As for the controls and such, I'm looking for a...less is better type of deal. Not looking for a tremolo, a volume and tone would do nicely, though a 2 or three band EQ would be good as well.

I also listed the kind of sound I wanted, but to expand on that, just the vintage Marshall sound. Yeah, kind of general, but that really is all I'm looking for. I guess Hendrix would really be the British-blues sound I'm looking for.

I would prefer a 1x12 combo. I'm not looking for a head and cab kind of deal.

Thanks for your help and everyone else's help so far.

[muchxs]

I went to an ampfest in New Jersey a couple years back. Marshalls and Marshall clones were very well represented. There were a few Trainwrecks "to die for". At least one real Dumble showed up.

I brought Winfield's personal 18 watt just to have something to carry. At one point I had it set up out in the lobby next to a 45 watt Germino. A small crowd gathered around, you'd be surprised how well an 18 watt amp holds up against a JTM45 clone... right up to the big numbers on the dial where the bigger amp has a little more.

The only Fender style amp at the show oddly enough was an Allen Old Flame owned by some dude from Philadelphia. He'd just purchased it, he plugged into the Winfield, then into his Allen, then back into the Winfield again. This went on for an hour or so. Finally he said, "I bought the wrong amp!"

Winfield tells me the dude eventually bought a Winfield... only to sell that a couple weeks later! Guess that wasn't the "right amp" for him, either!

The Winfield: It's not another Marshall 1974 clone. The only thing it has in common with a 1974 is a couple 12AX7s and EL84s. It "thinks" it's a mini-Plexi. I'm not gonna argue with it, it's a mean little amp. It might bite me...

[Geoff738]

Well, for the 18 watt Marshall thing, which is the direction I'm leaning as well, I think I've got it narrowed down to the Fargen Miniplex, Trinity, and reinhardt.

They all do (or can be equipped with) the power scaling thing - which is why they're at the top of my list - but which you may not want. I want to be able to play at low volumes at home with decent tone.

They're all also towards the lower end of the price scale for an 18 watt Marshall inspired amp. And I've heard just about nothing but good things about all three. All under 2 grand at least for a head. The Trinity is in your budget for a combo. They're probably less if you forego the power scaling - so I think they should all be pretty close to your budget range. But, prices on their respective websites. I think they all have either audio files or youtube vids as well.

But, I haven't heard any of them in person. The Fargen has a "decade" switch, which claims to alter the circuit from a plexi to a - er, I can't remember, but three different Marshall circuits. Great idea.

The Reinhardts just look cool - really, really cool.

Trinity is based in Toronto, as am I. I've been in contact with them, but haven't managed to make it over to hear their different iterations on the 18 watt theme. (Or 18 watt with one channel more plexi-ish, or more bluesbreakerish as the case may be). I hope to some time in the next month or so.

Let us know what you end up doing. As you can tell, I'm n a pretty similar search.

Oh, there's also the kit folks at Ceriatone, and many others.Trinity will supply parts as well. Metropoulous (sp?) as well - if you're handy with a soldering gun and willing to spend a bit of time.

Best of luck with your search!

Cheers,
Geoff

[Hucklebilly]

Originally Posted by Guitfiddler

Don't forget to check out Samamp. The "british voiced" versions Sam Timberlake builds are Marshall based and sweet. The pull activated gain switch is particularly nice, and the variable amplitude features are also great. Check 'em out if you can.

I've played through one of Sam's Samamps and they rock! He's a local builder here in Birmingham and has lots of satisfied customers. Definitely worth checking out (no affiliation on my part).

[Iceman 420]

Originally Posted by Geoff738

Well, for the 18 watt Marshall thing, which is the direction I'm leaning as well, I think I've got it narrowed down to the Fargen Miniplex, Trinity, and reinhardt.

They all do (or can be equipped with) the power scaling thing - which is why they're at the top of my list - but which you may not want. I want to be able to play at low volumes at home with decent tone.

They're all also towards the lower end of the price scale for an 18 watt Marshall inspired amp. And I've heard just about nothing but good things about all three. All under 2 grand at least for a head. The Trinity is in your budget for a combo. They're probably less if you forego the power scaling - so I think they should all be pretty close to your budget range. But, prices on their respective websites. I think they all have either audio files or youtube vids as well.

But, I haven't heard any of them in person. The Fargen has a "decade" switch, which claims to alter the circuit from a plexi to a - er, I can't remember, but three different Marshall circuits. Great idea.

The Reinhardts just look cool - really, really cool.

Trinity is based in Toronto, as am I. I've been in contact with them, but haven't managed to make it over to hear their different iterations on the 18 watt theme. (Or 18 watt with one channel more plexi-ish, or more bluesbreakerish as the case may be). I hope to some time in the next month or so.

Let us know what you end up doing. As you can tell, I'm n a pretty similar search.

Oh, there's also the kit folks at Ceriatone, and many others.Trinity will supply parts as well. Metropoulous (sp?) as well - if you're handy with a soldering gun and willing to spend a bit of time.

Best of luck with your search!

Cheers,
Geoff

I've checked out the Fargen Miniplex and I believe that has a MV, which I am not looking for. I will check out the Trinity and Reinhardts however. If you ever do get a chance to check Trinity out, I'd love to hear your opinion on that. Thanks.

And muchxs, thanks for that link. The Winfield looks like a pretty fine thing for only a $1000.

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by muchxs

I went to an ampfest in New Jersey a couple years back. Marshalls and Marshall clones were very well represented. There were a few Trainwrecks "to die for". At least one real Dumble showed up.

I brought Winfield's personal 18 watt just to have something to carry. At one point I had it set up out in the lobby next to a 45 watt Germino. A small crowd gathered around, you'd be surprised how well an 18 watt amp holds up against a JTM45 clone... right up to the big numbers on the dial where the bigger amp has a little more.

The only Fender style amp at the show oddly enough was an Allen Old Flame owned by some dude from Philadelphia. He'd just purchased it, he plugged into the Winfield, then into his Allen, then back into the Winfield again. This went on for an hour or so. Finally he said, "I bought the wrong amp!"

Winfield tells me the dude eventually bought a Winfield... only to sell that a couple weeks later! Guess that wasn't the "right amp" for him, either!

The Winfield: It's not another Marshall 1974 clone. The only thing it has in common with a 1974 is a couple 12AX7s and EL84s. It "thinks" it's a mini-Plexi. I'm not gonna argue with it, it's a mean little amp. It might bite me...

The guy who does the Winfield amps is a member here (Zook if memory serves). Definitely add him to the list as well. Again, I've heard only good things about his amps - he makes non-Marshall inspired designs as well, as I recall.


But, the point is there's lots of folks making these kinds of amps. Another approach might be to find a local builder (ask the amp tech you use, for example) and then work with them design one to your specs. An up and coming amp builder might be willing to take on that kind of thing.

Good luck with it - it's a great time to be buying an amp. the choice we have now is simply staggering.

Cheers,
Geoff

[danelectro]

I had the Fargen Mini-Plex MKI and it did the British thing perfectly. In fact it was so convincing, especially at low volumes, that I often felt like I was cheating or using a modeler. From what I've seen on youtube the MP MKII is even better. I swear I could get convincing "Beano" tones out of my Strat's and Tele's with the Fargen. The decade switch was a very cool feature, you could go from Beano era Clapton to AC\DC to ZZ Top with the flick of a switch.

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by Iceman 420

I've checked out the Fargen Miniplex and I believe that has a MV, which I am not looking for. I will check out the Trinity and Reinhardts however. If you ever do get a chance to check Trinity out, I'd love to hear your opinion on that. Thanks.

And Geoff, thanks for that link. The Winfield looks like a pretty fine thing for only a $1000.

I think many of the "smaller" builders may be amenable to relatively straightforward customization as well. Like offering a MV (or omitting it if it isn't something you want). Just a thought - it's worth an email.

Even if they won't do it, they may tell you what's involved time and $ wise if you wanted to take it to a tech after the fact. Especially if the amp is point to point wired, in many cases the mod might be fairly simple and inexpensive.

All that stuff is way beyond me, but, if the amp is otherwise exactly what you want, it might be an avenue worth exploring.

And, as I get older, I'm more and more into a simple amp that just sounds right. A volume and tone can be brilliant. (I love the Swarts for that, but that's a Fenderish thing).

Again, good luck with your search. Please do keep us informed.

Cheers,
Geoff

[Iceman 420]

Originally Posted by Geoff738

I think many of the "smaller" builders may be amenable to relatively straightforward customization as well. Like offering a MV (or omitting it if it isn't something you want). Just a thought - it's worth an email.

Even if they won't do it, they may tell you what's involved time and $ wise if you wanted to take it to a tech after the fact. Especially if the amp is point to point wired, in many cases the mod might be fairly simple and inexpensive.

All that stuff is way beyond me, but, if the amp is otherwise exactly what you want, it might be an avenue worth exploring.

And, as I get older, I'm more and more into a simple amp that just sounds right. A volume and tone can be brilliant. (I love the Swarts for that, but that's a Fenderish thing).

Again, good luck with your search. Please do keep us informed.

Cheers,
Geoff

Yes, I've been thinking of going to Dave Roccaforte of Roccaforte amps and discussing with him the possibility of his 18 watter in a 1x12 combo. The last time I asked him about combos, he said they were too heavy and such. I plan to ask him more about that, see if he could remove the second channel so it's just the fat, dark channel going through a volume and a tone.

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by danelectro

I had the Fargen Mini-Plex MKI and it did the British thing perfectly. In fact it was so convincing, especially at low volumes, that I often felt like I was cheating or using a modeler. From what I've seen on youtube the MP MKII is even better. I swear I could get convincing "Beano" tones out of my Strat's and Tele's with the Fargen. The decade switch was a very cool feature, you could go from Beano era Clapton to AC\DC to ZZ Top with the flick of a switch.

You're killing me here. If I was to describe the three Marshall tones I'd most want I'd, well, refer them to your post. Yes, I really really want one now. No, I really, really can't afford it.

But, it seems like you're referring to the Fargen in the past tense. Is there anything you didn't like about it?

Cheers,
Geoff

[Geoff738]

Originally Posted by Iceman 420

Yes, I've been thinking of going to Dave Roccaforte of Roccaforte amps and discussing with him the possibility of his 18 watter in a 1x12 combo. The last time I asked him about combos, he said they were too heavy and such. I plan to ask him more about that, see if he could remove the second channel so it's just the fat, dark channel going through a volume and a tone.

There are folks who'll build you a cab that you can drop the chassis in. If he won't build you a cab, others are out there that will.

Like these: http://www.ampcabco.com/marshallcabs.htm

No affiliation - never seen one, used one etc. But, they're out there. I don't think they're the only ones.

So, you've got options doing that as well.

Did I mention that it's a great time to be buying an amp?

Almost too much choice. Almost.

Cheers,
geoff

[Iceman 420]

Originally Posted by Geoff738

There are folks who'll build you a cab that you can drop the chassis in. If he won't build you a cab, others are out there that will.

Like these: http://www.ampcabco.com/marshallcabs.htm

No affiliation - never seen one, used one etc. But, they're out there. I don't think they're the only ones.

So, you've got options doing that as well.

Did I mention that it's a great time to be buying an amp?

Almost too much choice. Almost.

Cheers,
geoff

Yeah, so many clones, not just of Marshalls, and each with their own little twists. So many to choose from, no idea where to start.

[drummerdarko]

Samamp VAC 25 - British Voiced and can be set to operate at several different wattage settings. Check em out. Here's the info from Sam's website:

The VAC 25 ($1400.00 + shipping) is equipped with the gain preamp (British style) with gain, master, treble, mid, and bass controls. There are also three pull functions that rewire the circuitry in 8 combinations including several high gain selections. Pull voice: thickens, pull eq: boosts treble, upper mids, and gain, and pull gain: adds a gain stage. The V.A.C. presets are 25, 18, 11, 5, and 3 watts. There are also speaker phase and brilliant controls. The standard speaker is the Jensen 12” NEO and tubes are: 6V6GT push-pull pair, 12AX7 preamp (2), and 12AT7 driver. The dimensions are: 24” wide x 20” tall x 9” deep. Available in black, purple, red, and British tan. 2x10 option with Jensen NEO add $100.00. Custom colors available

and some pics:





And then there's my '96 Vox AC15TBX, made in England and based on the 60's AC30 Top Boost channel. It doesn't get more British "raw" sounding than that...

[marshman]

I built an 18 watt "lite IIb" with board from ebay and ceriatone trannies from Brownnote and it sounds awesome through a crap speaker from an SS Marshall. FOr a first build, I enjoyed it immensely. But if you're lookin' for an amp, single channel, I suggest something in the TMB (treble/middle/basss) vein for max versatility, maybe even with switchable SS/tube rectification.

If maximum resemblance to old-school 18watter is your goal, the 18watt.com-munity is nearly unilateral--GDS is the way to go.

All that said, I'm leaning towards a Mark Huss 6V6 Plexi is as purty close to top of my list. FYI...

[Iceman 420]

Originally Posted by marshman

I built an 18 watt "lite IIb" with board from ebay and ceriatone trannies from Brownnote and it sounds awesome through a crap speaker from an SS Marshall. FOr a first build, I enjoyed it immensely. But if you're lookin' for an amp, single channel, I suggest something in the TMB (treble/middle/basss) vein for max versatility, maybe even with switchable SS/tube rectification.

If maximum resemblance to old-school 18watter is your goal, the 18watt.com-munity is nearly unilateral--GDS is the way to go.

All that said, I'm leaning towards a Mark Huss 6V6 Plexi is as purty close to top of my list. FYI...

How do you like the Brown Note? I heard there are different models of the 18 watt, could you maybe explain the layout of the control panel?

Thanks.

[marshman]

Well, the original 18 watt model (1974) had 2 channels: 1 with Vol-Tone, one with Vol-Tone and tremelo. Look here...

http://gdsamps.com/

The 2061 was similar, but had a SS recto and made 20 watts. The early Marshall reissues were reputed to have tranny problems, but I'd like to think they've sorted that by now.

The TMB versions are single channel versions with Treble/Middle/Bass preamps that resembled Plexis. Quite a few folks willing to build you one of those. Typically a built higher gain, though the 18 watt power section is not a terribly high gain rig. Loads of EL84 grind, highly seductive. Maybe something from these guys...

http://www.category5amps.com/

Sorry, forgot...Brown note was great to deal with...fast, chatty and realistic. I will order form him again if needed.
Happy hunting.

[Iceman 420]

Originally Posted by marshman

Well, the original 18 watt model (1974) had 2 channels: 1 with Vol-Tone, one with Vol-Tone and tremelo. Look here...

http://gdsamps.com/

The 2061 was similar, but had a SS recto and made 20 watts. The early Marshall reissues were reputed to have tranny problems, but I'd like to think they've sorted that by now.

The TMB versions are single channel versions with Treble/Middle/Bass preamps that resembled Plexis. Quite a few folks willing to build you one of those. Typically a built higher gain, though the 18 watt power section is not a terribly high gain rig. Loads of EL84 grind, highly seductive. Maybe something from these guys...

http://www.category5amps.com/

Sorry, forgot...Brown note was great to deal with...fast, chatty and realistic. I will order form him again if needed.
Happy hunting.

Ah, totally forgot about Category 5. Saw that Bonamassa had one of them and been meaning to check 'em out. Thanks.

Um, and those questions that you answered, they were kind of meant for the Brown Note 18. Sowwy.

[Hoodster]

+1 Winfield.

I have the Cyclone head--a HUGE tone from 2 EL84's in a tidy 12-pound head for $750 hand-wired in the USA. It can't be beat, and you'll save a ton of dough to boot.

www.winfieldamps.com

.

[Hoodster]

My Cyclone:

http://fenderforum.com/userphotos/in...ml?recid=58497

.

[jefrs]

British voiced ? - there's a conundrum.

EL84's into a Celestion or similar. It was '17 watts' WEM then Vox then Marshall, then the others.

Current crop of suspects :-
Marshall 1974X
Vox AC15CC
Laney LC15, LC15R, VC15, L20
Orange/Matamp
Sound City SC20VC

[OaklandA]

Another vote for a Winfield. Amp is capable of so much....nice cleans, Marshall crunch, Vox-y chime. I've recently had to sell all my gear except one electric, one amp, one acoustic. The last amp standing?

[Rumble]

Or you can get an actual Marshall. A couple of months ago I got a near mint 1976 50-watt JMP 1987 for less than a grand and had a PPIMV put on the back in an existing hole. It now does low volume crunch better than my AC15, literally. I use it with a small, light 2x12 cabinet and can get full-on distortion with my wife sleeping in the next room. The 50-watters (from before they started using solid state diodes) are about as close in sound as you'll get to the 18-watters and you can still get them relatively cheaply. I'm sure the clones are really good, and I was considering a Ceriatone 18/36 earlier, but nothing's going to do a Marshall tone better than a Marshall.

[GUITARmole]

Originally Posted by Rumble

Or you can get an actual Marshall. A couple of months ago I got a near mint 1976 50-watt JMP 1987 for less than a grand and had a PPIMV put on the back in an existing hole. It now does low volume crunch better than my AC15, literally. I use it with a small, light 2x12 cabinet and can get full-on distortion with my wife sleeping in the next room. The 50-watters (from before they started using solid state diodes) are about as close in sound as you'll get to the 18-watters and you can still get them relatively cheaply.

You bring up a good point!! With a good PPIMV (like the Lar/Mar style discussd at Metroamp forum) you can bring a 100W Marshall down to bedroom levels and still have it sound fantastic...all for about $5 in parts.

I disagree on the 50W sounding as close as you can get to an 18W though. I think cranked the 18W sounds more like a 100W Marshall, but when your guitar volume is turned down you can get a chimey glassy clean tone that is better than all but the best EL34 Marshalls.

Originally Posted by Rumble

I'm sure the clones are really good, and I was considering a Ceriatone 18/36 earlier, but nothing's going to do a Marshall tone better than a Marshall.

Ummm...I'll have to strongly disagree on that one. Yeah, vintage Marshalls do vintage Marshall tone the best but when it comes to new amps most all of the clones are an improvement over what Marshall is currently putting out. Now I'm not saying the reissues don't sound good...or that they can't be made to sound as good as the clones...but out of the box they need a little tweaking to get them 'there' where the clones are great sounding from the factory.

As for the Brownnote amps, I can't say I've heard one...but the design is pretty-much an 18W Lite 2B (18W Marshall with the trem channel removed).
The Lite 2B I just put together sounds great and would do the sounds Iceman420 mentioned (Hendrix, Cream, Crowes, etc) perfectly.

[stax]

Originally Posted by GUITARmole

I disagree on the 50W sounding as close as you can get to an 18W though. I think cranked the 18W sounds more like a 100W Marshall, but when your guitar volume is turned down you can get a chimey glassy clean tone that is better than all but the best EL34 Marshalls.
perfectly.

+1
Spot on desciption,that's exactly why I love mine, every tone I need is on the volume knob.
Stax

[muchxs]

Originally Posted by Rumble

Or you can get an actual Marshall. A couple of months ago I got a near mint 1976 50-watt JMP 1987 for less than a grand and had a PPIMV put on the back in an existing hole. It now does low volume crunch better than my AC15, literally. I use it with a small, light 2x12 cabinet and can get full-on distortion with my wife sleeping in the next room. The 50-watters (from before they started using solid state diodes) are about as close in sound as you'll get to the 18-watters and you can still get them relatively cheaply.

PPIMV is all preamp and almost no power amp. If you like a buzzy JCM800 tone then you'll be o.k..

"Full on" distortion is preamp plus power amp plus speakers driven to the max. That's the whole beauty of the 18 watt thing, you can drive the EL84s until they beg for mercy. Then drive an old alnico Celestion or alnico Jensen with the full output. The same amp choked down against a master volume just isn't the same.

The ultimate epiphany comess when one clones a JMP or JCM800 preamp and drives a single output tube with it. Custom output, Class A, single ended. It doesn't clip like a real Marshall, if anything the harmonic content is greater.

Originally Posted by Rumble

I'm sure the clones are really good, and I was considering a Ceriatone 18/36 earlier, but nothing's going to do a Marshall tone better than a Marshall.

Perhaps.

But... Marshalls are mass produced amps built with mass produced components. That means when they were new there was as much as a 20% tolerance swing on some parts. Some of the amps age gracefully, some don't. A proper boutique clone takes a really good original as its starting point and then works from there. The tone can be tweaked according to the tastes of the builder. Parts are selected and graded according to the builder's philosophy. Choose the right builder, it's like it's 1970 again and Jim Marshall is very interested in getting you the tone you want. Oh, yeah... it's 1970 again and you're Richie Blackmore.

[Rumble]

Originally Posted by GUITARmole

I disagree on the 50W sounding as close as you can get to an 18W though. I think cranked the 18W sounds more like a 100W Marshall, but when your guitar volume is turned down you can get a chimey glassy clean tone that is better than all but the best EL34 Marshalls.

Ummm...I'll have to strongly disagree on that one. Yeah, vintage Marshalls do vintage Marshall tone the best but when it comes to new amps most all of the clones are an improvement over what Marshall is currently putting out.

On the first point, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

On the second, I wasn't referring to the DSLs and 900s or even reissues. Real vintage Marshalls are still available under $1000 and definitely under $1500. It blows my mind that new reissues and/or other new Marshalls go for $2000 but you can still get vintage amps for $900. I'll take the real-deal originals for less than half the price, thanks.

[Poppatwang]

Marshall 18 watt "out raws" Vox AC 30/15 to me. And I dig Vox tones.
I cobbled together an 18 watt clone. Ceriatone built chassis, MojoTone cab via eBay.
Hellatone 30 speaker (after much taste testing). Sub $800 if I recall.

[fungusyoung]

Originally Posted by drummerdarko

Sorry for the thread diversion, but tell me about your Thinline... is it a FSR? MIM? USA? Never seen a RI quite like that. Looks awesome.

My 18 watter of choice is an incoming Carmen Ghia head, and I currently plan to go with an Avatar 112 with a Red Fang.

[Iceman 420]

Update: After doing a bit more researching and such, I am currently thinking of getting the GDS S/C 1x12 combo. From what I hear, the kit itself comes with excellent instructions and manuals. I have little experience with electronics other than wiring my Esquire. Should I opt for the kit or everything pre-built?

[Rumble]

Originally Posted by muchxs

PPIMV is all preamp and almost no power amp. If you like a buzzy JCM800 tone then you'll be o.k..

"Full on" distortion is preamp plus power amp plus speakers driven to the max. That's the whole beauty of the 18 watt thing, you can drive the EL84s until they beg for mercy. Then drive an old alnico Celestion or alnico Jensen with the full output. The same amp choked down against a master volume just isn't the same.

The ultimate epiphany comess when one clones a JMP or JCM800 preamp and drives a single output tube with it. Custom output, Class A, single ended. It doesn't clip like a real Marshall, if anything the harmonic content is greater.

But... Marshalls are mass produced amps built with mass produced components. That means when they were new there was as much as a 20% tolerance swing on some parts. Some of the amps age gracefully, some don't. A proper boutique clone takes a really good original as its starting point and then works from there. The tone can be tweaked according to the tastes of the builder. Parts are selected and graded according to the builder's philosophy. Choose the right builder, it's like it's 1970 again and Jim Marshall is very interested in getting you the tone you want. Oh, yeah... it's 1970 again and you're Richie Blackmore.

Most JCM800s had solid state clipping diodes. A JMP with PPIMV sounds nothing like that. It's not buzzy at all. Everybody knows a PPIMV is only hitting the preamp tubes. But I think power tube saturation is way overrated. The tone of my Marshall doesn't really change much at all from when the PPIMV is hitting the preamp tubes at low volumes to when the power tubes are pushed at high volumes; it's a lot louder but there's not that much variation in the tonal qualities. Most of the distortion you hear in any amp will come from the preamp section.

I also have an AC15 and I can get the EL84s saturated and get the 20-watt Greenback screaming, but the "full-on" Marshall distortion at low volumes with the PPIMV is still better. I guess we have different definitions of full on distortion and/or the quality of the sound.

You say the clone doesn't clip like a Marshall and that's exactly my point. If that's the sound that you're looking for then that's the right route, and I'm sure they do sound sweet. But it's still not going to sound more like a Marshall than a Marshall. I don't subscribe to the aging of inorganic material theory. I'll take a 70's Marshall any day (the 60's ones are out of my price range).

[JDaveG]

If it were my $$$ and that sound is what I was looking for, I'd be on a Dr. Z Maz 18 Jr. like a hungry dog on a meat truck.

[muchxs]

Originally Posted by Rumble

Most JCM800s had solid state clipping diodes. A JMP with PPIMV sounds nothing like that. It's not buzzy at all. Everybody knows a PPIMV is only hitting the preamp tubes. But I think power tube saturation is way overrated. The tone of my Marshall doesn't really change much at all from when the PPIMV is hitting the preamp tubes at low volumes to when the power tubes are pushed at high volumes; it's a lot louder but there's not that much variation in the tonal qualities. Most of the distortion you hear in any amp will come from the preamp section.

Oh, my. Where should I start?

Look at the Marshall JCM800 2203, 2204, etc. About half of the series were classic Marshall topography, no solid state clippers. That's the Marshall '80s hair band tone.

If the tone of your Marshall doesn't change much from master mostly down to master mostly up... you might need to take it to a tech.

If master volumes are so cool why are attenuators so popular?

Originally Posted by Rumble

You say the clone doesn't clip like a Marshall and that's exactly my point. If that's the sound that you're looking for then that's the right route, and I'm sure they do sound sweet. But it's still not going to sound more like a Marshall than a Marshall. I don't subscribe to the aging of inorganic material theory. I'll take a 70's Marshall any day (the 60's ones are out of my price range).

Mine clips like a really good modded Marshall with tight bass and interesting harmonic content. I could go off on Marshall derived circuit topography... but then most of the good ones claim lineage back to tweed Bassman copies. One can trace the evolution of high gain technology from the 5F6 through JTM, JMP, JCM then eventually to Soldano, Bogner, even the 5150. It's a matter of knowing what's going on between gain stages and the various voicing schemes. What's added and what's left out.

Aging of inorganic material... it's not a theory, it's a fact. Resistors that started their lives at 100k +/- 10% measure at 140k or more in many cases 20 years later. Filter caps that started their lives full of optimism and hope are mere shells of their former selves a couple decades later. '60s Marshalls that have had their bias supplies cooked at one time or another are pretty common. Speakers have paper cones and in many cases paper voice coil formers. Paper is an organic material and it does indeed age. Of course tubes get old and weak, the odd part their is that new tubes seem to wear out a lot quicker than old tubes.

[eggman]

Howdy,

Not familiar with Vox and Marshall, but played a Dr. Z Carmen Ghia with 1x12 matching cab (Weber AlNicO speaker) and found it to be fantastic for rocking out. 2 knobs, delicious overdrive tone. EL-84 tubes, so it's got more of a "British" voice.
Made that Cherry ES-335 I was using roar. Wish I had a Dr. Z Carmen Ghia; one of the best amps I've ever played.

Eggman

[Rumble]

Originally Posted by muchxs

Oh, my. Where should I start?

Look at the Marshall JCM800 2203, 2204, etc. About half of the series were classic Marshall topography, no solid state clippers. That's the Marshall '80s hair band tone.

If the tone of your Marshall doesn't change much from master mostly down to master mostly up... you might need to take it to a tech.

If master volumes are so cool why are attenuators so popular?



Mine clips like a really good modded Marshall with tight bass and interesting harmonic content. I could go off on Marshall derived circuit topography... but then most of the good ones claim lineage back to tweed Bassman copies. One can trace the evolution of high gain technology from the 5F6 through JTM, JMP, JCM then eventually to Soldano, Bogner, even the 5150. It's a matter of being knowing what's going on between gain stages and the various voicing schemes. What's added and what's left out.

Aging of inorganic material... it's not a theory, it's a fact. Resistors that started their lives at 100k +/- 10% measure at 140k or more in many cases 20 years later. Filter caps that started their lives full of optimism and hope are mere shells of their former selves a couple decades later. '60s Marshalls that have had their bias supplies cooked at one time or another are pretty common. Speakers have paper cones and in many cases paper voice coil formers. Paper is an organic material and it does indeed age. Of course tubes get old and weak, the odd part their is that new tubes seem to wear out a lot quicker than old tubes.

No need to have mine looked at by a tech. I just got it from one of the best techs in Atlanta and it sounds fabulous, at low volumes or high. And yes, the PPIMV works beautifully and allows it to get sweet tones at low volumes that are almost the same as at high volumes (except, of course, for the speaker intricacies that come with stressing speakers that are really moving).

It's also well known that many JCM800s didn't have the solid state clipping diodes; that's why I said "most". Those 80's bad hair tone Marshalls are probably the most common and they had the diodes and the buzzy sound you referred to. I'm not sure what the point of the historical lineage mentioned above was. That's common knowledge as well. But I'm not clear on how Soldanos and Peaveys relate to whether clones sound more Marshall-like than Marshalls.

If parts wear out then they get replaced- tubes, speakers, whatever. I'll still take the vintage Marshall. A clone is just what it is- a clone, which sounds like an original, even if it sounds just as good. It's not logical to say that a clone sounds more like a Marshall than a Marshall. That's an impossible paradox. Whatever the Marshall sounds like is what it is and the clone is some replication of that. Nothing wrong with liking the replication better.

[muchxs]

Originally Posted by Rumble

That's common knowledge as well. But I'm not clear on how Soldanos and Peaveys relate to whether clones sound more Marshall-like than Marshalls.

(Giant sigh.) Look... you seen one tube amp... you've seen 'em all. There are only so many ways to do this, you can add parts and stick a different badge on it but there are only so many means to an end. If you really want to be different clone a "Jimmy Page" Supro because it's different from anything by Fender or Marshall. Or you can clone an AC-15, that's different from anything Fender built and mostly different from anything Marshall built. Aside from that... you seen one, you seen 'em all.

It's no problem to make a Fender sound like a Marshall or a Marshall to sound like a Fender or anything else to sound like whatever... if you know what you're doing

[muchxs]

xx