Gigging amp dilemma

[telesanti]

Hi,

I´ve been a Custom Vibrolux owner for the past 2 years and I gigged with it in more than 50 shows. Great amp for medium sized bars, but I´ve been having a lot of trouble on larger venues. I never LOVED the tone of the CVR, but loved its size, its reverb, its tremolo and the effects on both channels.

But, in the last three gigs (medium-to-large venues), I had NO headroom. And I need clean sound (50´s and 60´s pop and rock band). I kind of got tired of the Vibrolux. And my band is not playing small and medium venues anymore. We are in the medium-large halls ballpark for good.

For small and even some medium gigs I own a Pro Junior which I love. I had a Twin Amp for some years and loved the tone, but hated its size. At that time, I lived in the fourth floor of a building that had NO ELEVADOR. So, I sold it for health reasons. Now I live on the second floor. Still no elevator, but I can handle some stairs with a larger amp.

I kind of miss the Twin now.

So, I´m thinking about getting a bigger amp. Bassman or Twin Reverb are in my list. I will not consider non-Fender amps.

I´m not totally decided on what to do, maybe someone can help me:

1) Will a Bassman be loud enough for larger halls (think weddings halls and 300 people clubs)? I know it sounds crazy asking that, but does it have enough headroom for large stages and a heavy-handed drummer?

2) How do you, Twin Reverb onwers, handle the sound guy? Is it painfully loud so you are always asked to turn it down? The sound guy is always asking for me to turn the CVR down even though I CAN´T HEAR MYSELF.

3) Am I going deaf? Should the CVR do the job? Should I buy louder speakers and another 2x10 cabinet and forget about buying another amp? I would love this solution, because I am tired of selling and buying amps.

Thanks!

[Tim Armstrong]

I don't know how you feel about older amps, but an SF Vibrolux is a really great gig amp. Lots more headroom than your amp in about the same size (or is it exactly the same size?). The Music Man amps in that ballpark (HD65 2x10, HD130 2x10, etc) are also great, and cleaner and louder than your amp.

Another thing to consider is the aiming of your amp onstage. If you're mic-ing the amp, it doesn't have to point towards the audience. I'm a big fan of setting the amps on the sides of the stage, facing in towards the band. Everyone in the band can hear them better, and the soundman doesn't ask you to turn it down because less of it is beaming out into the audience!

Also, using something like the Weber Beam Blocker defuses the sound a bit so that you can hear it better and it isn't taking off the heads of the folks out in the front row.

Tim

[graphs]

^^good advice.

Seems to me if you're getting blasted from the soundman for being too loud, getting an even louder amp isn't going to help. But for clean headroom you can't really beat a Twin.

[e-merlin]

Have you tried the Super Sonic? It's pretty loud and sounds great. It's 60 watts and can be had in head/cab form so it's easier to handle.

[91xlntS-3]

+1 with Tim, I'd try an amp stand of some kind, so the sound is pointing more towards you, instead of the audience. If you're mic-ing the amp to start with, you must have a VERY heavy handed drummer! I've been gigging with a Blues Jr, mic'd thru the PA; but then, I've got a drummer that isn't out to prove how hard he can hit the heads on his kit!

Do you run any signal back thru the monitors? Maybe this would help you out also.

Best of luck...

[Ben Harmless]

Good news! If you're sick of buying amps, then don't buy a new one!

If the sound person knows what he or she is doing (you've heard good things out of them before) then you're not getting bad information - you're just plain too loud.

If you're too loud, then all you've got to do is make sure you're too loud in the right direction. How do you have your amp set up? If it's on the ground in back of you, you're hitting your legs. Either stick the amp up on a crate or a case (a good thing to have for a working musician with a combo amp) or get some tilt-back legs and aim the thing upwards.

I'm one of those sound guys, so I'll try to offer a little perspective here. In a good-sounding 1000 seat room where I used to work, I've had guitarists with Blues Juniors blow away the rest of the band. In a very live 300 person room, I had a guitarist the other day with a Vibrolux finally stick his amp on a chair off the side of the stage, tilted back and pointing upwards at him. It went from being too loud in the room with him unable to hear himself, to me having full control in the house and him actually being able to turn up. It was an acoustic band with no drummer, and I could actually mix him with the Mando.

Placement can be everything. A pair of tilt-back legs and setting your amp to face up at you from the side of the stage can really, really help a talented engineer mix a fantastic show.

EDIT: This is what I'm talking about, they actually look pretty decent on the side of a Fender amp, and they shouldn't devalue it at all as long as you take a small amount of care installing them.

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

Another thing to consider is the aiming of your amp onstage. If you're mic-ing the amp, it doesn't have to point towards the audience. I'm a big fan of setting the amps on the sides of the stage, facing in towards the band. Everyone in the band can hear them better, and the soundman doesn't ask you to turn it down because less of it is beaming out into the audience!

+1

Get a Twin, use it as a sidefill aimed at your ears. Mount handles on the side and get a bandmate to help you move it.

[telesanti]

Hey, thanks for all the answers! That was very insightfull.

Some comments:

- Yes, I´d love a SF Vibrolux, but I live in Brazil and it´s pretty hard to find one. I would consider the Super Sonic either, but I never saw one over here. Twins and Bassmans, on the other hand, are pretty common and fairly priced.

- I usually keep the Lux aimed to my legs, six to nine feet from me, next to the drummer. Now I realize it doesn´t make sense AT ALL. I will try putting it on a chair, just beside me. Ben Harmless, thanks for putting the sound guy perspective, very helpfull. I remember now I tried that last year a couple of times with good results, but, somehow I managed to forget it. I have a large gig on saturday and I will try that.

- Tilt-back legs: the CVR have them. Now, this is a strange subject. I use the tilt-back legs quite often, but I hate the tone I hear from the amp. When the amp is 90 degrees with the floor, it sounds great. When tilted back, it sounds harsh and awful. Can´t stand it, even though I get some percieved headroom. Can someone explain that?

- Monitor: yes, the amp is usually micked, but I rarely put it on the monitor. There is some reasons for that. First, I already have trouble hearing my voice (I do backup singing). Second, the sound guy usualy hates it. They keep saying I have to hear myself from the amp´s speakers.

- One more odd thing I forgot to mention: 99% percent of the times that I can´t hear myself on stage, people on the audience say my guitar was sounding great. I can´t explain that, but the Lux has the ability to reach far out on the audience, but isn´t able to cut through the drums on stage. Maybe it´s because I am aiming my speakers to my legs. And maybe because I am just next to the drummer, but the audience is safely away from him.

- Last thing: my drummer is a nice and talented guy. He´s loud, but not THAT loud. That´s why I think I can manage to find a way to hear a clean sound from my guitar without buying another amp. He´s not like Keith Moon or something.

Thanks everybody.

[Mikecito]

"When tilted back, it sounds harsh and awful. Can´t stand it, even though I get some percieved headroom. Can someone explain that?"

You are hearing your amp the way people in front of it are. When you have it standing upright blowing past your knees, you don't get blasted by the harsh highs. You end up hearing the nicer tone of the side of the speaker. You may have noticed that most sound guys mic your speaker a bit away from the cone. This is done for the same reason.

[popthree]

Originally Posted by telesanti

: And maybe because I am just next to the drummer, but the audience is safely away from him.

so the audience may be safe... now do yourself a favor and get your ears a safe distance away from him, if possible. when i was 28 i had just spent the past 4 years gigging with the same awesome drummer. he was right behind me, cymbals cutting holes in my hearing.... i can still hear them today.

sorry, minor hijack... hope you hear me

[telesanti]

I´ll remember that, popthree. Thanks for the advice.

[backalleyblues]

All being said here is absolutely true... one more thing, telesanti (and you're not the only one who's noticed it) the sound of the amp will change with distance-I often hate my sound onstage, but when I step off (doing my usual "playing to the audience" deal) it sounds fine...

Another reason for the different sound-with the amp on the floor, it's picking up a lot more bass via coupling. When you put the amp back on it's legs, you also break that coupling. So you might have to dial in a little more bass to compensate...

Franc Robert

[FatTeleTom]

"Tilt-back legs: the CVR have them. Now, this is a strange subject. I use the tilt-back legs quite often, but I hate the tone I hear from the amp. When the amp is 90 degrees with the floor, it sounds great. When tilted back, it sounds harsh and awful. Can´t stand it, even though I get some percieved headroom. Can someone explain that?"

As noted, when the amp is tilted back, you're hearing what it sounds like on-axis. When not tilted back, that on-axis sound is directed at your audience. I would strongly recommend tiling it towards you, and adjusting the amp tone so it sounds good to you.

That should:

a) Prevent the folks in front from being nailed with the harsh on-axis tone

b) Allow you to hear yourself better

c) Allow the sound guy to get a better mic'd sound to run through the PA.

"Maybe it´s because I am aiming my speakers to my legs. And maybe because I am just next to the drummer, but the audience is safely away from him."

Yes, on both counts.

Aim at your ears, and try to get everyone (drummer included) to "turn down". Get further from the drummer if possible. And maybe get fitted for musicians ear plugs to bring the volume of everything down in your ears. I love mine, but I think they're tougher to get used to if you sing a lot.

[Singin' Dave]

All great advice above. Do NOT get another amp until you fix the amp placement and other problems above or you will ALWAYS have these problems, particularly as you move up the venue size ladder. Best to learn good stage position, amp placement, monitoring etc. NOW.

To sum a lot of what has been suggested above:

1) Get your amp off the floor and pointed at your ears not your knees.

2) Sidewash the amp (i.e. place it at your side pointing across or angled to the stage) so that it's beam is not pointing at the crowd - you will rely on your soundman to mix you into the overall band mix at FOH (front of house aka the audience).

3) In this position, your amp is YOUR guitar monitor. Get it close enough to you so you can hear it well. Adjust volume and EQ on amp to taste in its RAISED/MONITOR position.

4) If you still do not have enough headroom, ask the sound man to give you a bit of your guitar signal in your vocal monitor. You can then turn down amp to desired cleans while asking for good level in monitor. Learn to balance guitar in monitor w/ vocals to taste. Your other band members should ask for your guit in their monitors if they need to hear you.


If you still can't get what you need out of the above, then MAYBE it's time to start looking at more powerful amps, but as stated above, you'll likely have even more issues with your soundman.

[benadrian]

When my band opened for the Violent Femmes about 6 years ago, their singer/guitarist just had his amp in front of him like another wedge monitor. It was a Deluxe Reverb, BTW, and miked up with a 57.

Of course, this was at a 5000 seat outdoor venue, so ANY amp is going to get eaten up by the venue.

Amps look cool on stage, we all know this. Honestly, though, except for the smaller clubs and except for hard-rock/metal bands, amps are just stage monitors nowadays. It you can get over your drummer, taht's enough volume.

Good luck.

Ben

[Singin' Dave]

Originally Posted by benadrian

If you can get over your drummer, that's enough volume.

I'll add to this sentence. If you can get over your drummer with the amp aimed at your ears from fairly close range, that's enough volume.

[Poppatwang]

I find using musicians ear plugs helps me hear both my own voice and the band as a whole.
I can get by with a crappy monitor mix with the plugs in. Sometimes I just use one on
the drummer side. If stage volume is cranked I wear both.

[The Radium King]

if you want more headroom out of your amp, do a search on 'moyer mods'; the cvr shares the same printed circuit board (pcb) as the 63' vibroverb reissue (vvri). the vvri has alot more headroom in the preamp, so it doesn't break up as early on the volume dial. it also has much better reverb. the changes will take an amp tech about an hour and cost you a couple of resistors and perhaps a capacitor (for you techy guys, it adds a negative feedback loop, splits the channels and allows more bass signal through to the reverb). the spots are already there on the pcb; you just drop in a few components.

[strat a various]

telesanti
I've never had enough headroom from a Vibrolux at medium sized bars. I own a Twin Reverb and think you'd do well with one. Bassman (tweed reissue) is loud enough, though I prefer my silverface Bassman head w/ 2-12 cab. All these amps are a bear to move up and down stairs. The Bassman head and cab are easiest 'cause you're ballanced. Another good Fender to consider is the 80s Concert Amp, 60 watts I think. They are loud amps, certainly in Twin territory.
I also don't like the sound of "tens" when tilted back, even from a Super Reverb ... too strident. 12" speakers fare better when tilted, at least at clean volumes. You have to sound good to yourself, no matter what the sound man does. If I get a "too loud" sign from a sound guy, I aim my amp sideways at me, usually away from the sound booth, then I can hear, and he can better judge the true "mains mix".

[telesanti]

I never learn so much from a single thread. Thanks for all responses. I´ll keep you posted about the results. I have two gigs this weekend and I´ll try your tips on both. Good luck to me.

The Radium King, I did the moyer mod on the reverb. That was fantastic. I use a 12AT7 on the phase inverter to clean the amp a bit. I didn´t add the negative feeback loop because I love the sensitivity of the Vibrolux and I was told I could kill that with that mod.

Thanks folks. This is a great forum.

[Ben Harmless]

Fantastic info in this thread. It should be required reading for performing electric guitarists.

I'll just add that I agree with the sentiment that one should at very least take the straight-on amp tone into account when dialing in their amp. Nothing makes me sadder than a guitar tone that's too bright. I usually assume the player is just going deaf.

As for the monitors - I never mind putting guitar in the wedges if it's because the guitarist wants to keep his or her stage volume down. It's only when the amp is already roaring and laser-beaming at me (while missing the guitarist completely) that I think to myself "you want me to put even more excess volume on the stage?"

[mad dog]

I sure do like 35 watt amps. But there are times when you need just a touch more, and it's usually in the headroom department. Places I play are amp only usually. So my big dog amp ('57 tweed twin RI) is a small jump up in wattage, but a more than decent boost in volume and headroom over the tweed pro type I usually favor. It's quite reassuring to have an amp like that. I looked long and hard for an affordable BF Pro Reverb, same principle, but found the TT first. Short of a twin reverb or other 4x6L6 type amp, these are as big as I want to own.

[DavidP]

I replaced the stock oxfarts in my SFVR years ago with a pair of Webers--a 10F150T and a 10A150 (30w version). Also I have a pair of beam blockers installed. This speaker combination gives more headroom and, for me, is outstanding for pub/club gigs and I'm never above 6 on volume. Also, I just got a "Standback" amp stand that I'll be trying at gigs this weekend--in rehearsal I can hear the amp a lot better and it still couples directly with the floor. That's my $0.02 (CAD, however, so that's about $0.0182 USD)!

[telesanti]

So, I had two gigs this weekend.

First gig - I was in a small pub (not a larger one as I thought) and I had some energy problems. The energy flow was too low and both guitar amps were underpowered. My tone was thin, dirty and overall awful. But I can really comment on everything we discussed here because there was an obvious outside problem. Lousy gig.

Second gig _ I put the Vibrolux right beside me, maybe three fit. Much larger venue. The stage had a wood floor, so I decided to take advantage of that and didn´t tilt the amp back so I could get a little more bass response in my body. I also used my Pro Junior as extension cabinet high on a bar stool, tilted back and aimed to my ear. I heard myself perfectly. I had headroom and everything I wanted.

EXCEPT

A good tone. The amp is not breaking up smoothly. It goes from clean to harsh and overdriven way too fast. It is not as fat and as responsive as it used to be. I think my power tubes are not OK. And one of the speakers (blue frame alnico) is farting on the bass notes a lot more than it used to and I had to turn the bass down a lot (I think it was at 2 at the end of the show). Also, my red light bulb on the amp (the jewel) was fading out during the gig. So I thing I may be having some kind of tech problem which could explain why I was having so much trouble in the headroom department and the lousy tone.

I´m taking him to the amp doc tomorrow. Thanks for your help.