6G6-B question for all you vintage circuit experts

[ruger9]

One of my big influences is Brian Setzer. I've long wanted a Fender Blonde Bassman 6G6-B. I've read it's "different" than the other Bassmans, and even "closer to a marshall than a Fender." But at 50 watts, it's really too loud to play at home. I've used attenuators for years, and they can work great, but I much prefer lower-wattage alternatives.

So, is there an amp (Fender or otherwise) that could get me that tone, or pretty close too it, but at less watts? Would the 5E3 even be in the same ballpark? I found a company that will make a 5E3 with 5881's (25 watts).

How about a custom build... 6G6-B with 6V6s?

Any ideas? (and don't say "a modeling amp". have one. Not what I want.)

[ruger9]

Or should I just can the whole thing, get a 6G6-B and an Ultimate Attenuator?

[sunkidd]

Originally Posted by ruger9

Or should I just can the whole thing, get a 6G6-B and an Ultimate Attenuator?

I love my Bassman 6G6-B amps...
They do take pedals well if they can't be cranked all the time...

when I need to drive mine, at lower volumes, I use a TIM pedal or
a Barber Burn Unit
and find sweet spots with a Volume pedal...

[Tim Swartz]

Better check your sources, the Bassman that is like a Marshall is the 5F6A. The 6G6* and other Bassmans heads are not remotely similar.

[PhatTele]

You need something that can hold the bottom end together and which can be relatively bright while you're playing those filtertrons. There's a lot of midrange in those 5E3s and I haven't found that they work well with filtertrons which are also relatively midrangey. The blonde Bassmans work well because they can hold things together and you can dial in more tight and bright using the Presence knob. I use a sup-ed up 5E3 with larger tranformers and 6L6s for country stuff. It sounds great with Teles and Strats, but not with my Nashvilles or Jets. However, if you can get a Gretsch with Dearmonds (or TV Jones Magnatrons) and play through a 5E3-style amp, those have the pop. I have a Setzer Nashville and an Eddie Cochran Nashville (w/a P90 and Dearmond). The Eddie Cochran seems to work the best.

One amp you might want to scope out is an early-mid 60s Ampeg Reverb Rocket (the one with the 7591 power tubes). Those have the tweed tone but more high end cut which would complement the filtertrons.

[Wayne Alexander]

I've got a lot of amps, and I can say that nothing else sounds much like a 6G6B. Certainly none of the tweed-era circuits do. If you're open to some electronic modifications you can bring the 6B6B down to any volume level you want. Don't do this on a pristine vintage one, but if you get a Marsh http://store.marshamps.com/product_i...roducts_id=427 or other no-collector-value 6G6B, you can install Kevin O'Connor's Power Scaling http://www.londonpower.com/catalog/p...products_id=27 or Dana Hall's VVR (similar circuits that reduce the B+ voltage and the bias voltage in proportion to each other, while retaining full heater voltage) to give you pretty much the same sound down to maybe 25% of the "stock" output. At lower volume than that the sound will be a bit cleaner, but still usable all the way down to bedroom levels.

A good attenuator is another option, though I tend to prefer the sound of the VVR or Power Scaling.

I've got a Marsh 6G6B on which I installed VVR and a Dave Allen "raw" control on the "normal" channel to increase mids when needed, it's a very versatile amp. I tried a post phase inverter master volume, but didn't like the sound of it with this circuit. I usually use it with a 2x12 closed back cabinet with Celestion G1265 Heritage speakers (Setzer uses Celestion Vintage 30's, which have more of an upper midrange spike) or a 1x12 open back with a 100-watt Scumback speaker. It makes all the Setzer type sounds, and a lot more, at nearly any volume level. These amps won't give you as much grind as a Marshall 4-imnput model 1987 50-watt, but about as much as a JTM45, if those are references for you. The tone, of course, is different than the Marshalls.

[ruger9]

Great info Wayne. Thanks.

Tim: didn't say the 6G6-B and Marshall were close in circuits, just that I've read the 6G6-B is the most "Marshally" Fender. I know the JTM45 was pretty much a direct lift from the 5F6A Bassman.

[Tim Swartz]

Originally Posted by ruger9

Great info Wayne. Thanks.

Tim: didn't say the 6G6-B and Marshall were close in circuits, just that I've read the 6G6-B is the most "Marshally" Fender. I know the JTM45 was pretty much a direct lift from the 5F6A Bassman.

The are not close.

[ruger9]

Everything I've ever read, including info from Dave Hunter, said the 1st Marshall (which I'm assuming is the JTM45, perhaps I assume wrong), was ALMOST a direct lift from the Fender 5F6A Bassman.

A quick google:

The Bassman was so impressive in its day, that Jim Marshall selected it as the template for his own JTM45 of 1962.

The Marshall JTM45, which is almost a direct copy of the 5F6A... differences most notably the substitution of a 12AX7 in the first preamp, an additional bypass capacitor in the bright channel for the lead model, and triple the negative feedback voltage to the phase splitter.

Whatever, doesn't matter... back to the 6G6-B...

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by ruger9

Everything I've ever read, including info from Dave Hunter, said the 1st Marshall (which I'm assuming is the JTM45, perhaps I assume wrong), was ALMOST a direct lift from the Fender 5F6A Bassman.

Very close indeed. Jim Marshall was trying to create a amp he could sell cheaper than a Fender in the UK, as import duties made real Fenders expensive. Marshall thus used "local" parts, like Celestion speakers and British tubes in order to save money. I don't know if he was intending to create something new or just being a good businessman, really.

The results were different from a Fender, if you like it that way

[Roe]

Originally Posted by ruger9

Or should I just can the whole thing, get a 6G6-B and an Ultimate Attenuator?

the 6g6 like to see a 4ohm load but the UA is a 32ohm load. this will raise the OT primary from 3.5k to 28k - this is asking for trouble (arcing etc)

[Chris Clemens]

What kind of enclosure do you have? I found out (well some one told me) That a big influnce on them are the early JBL's...

I must say, my '55 Pro sound's a little less Fender with the D140F (also very nice!)

[Wally]

One thing that the 6G6,6G6A and 6G6B amps have is a tapped treble control in the Normal channel. The pot has a 4th lug that is tapped at 70K. This yields a midrange that I don't hear in any brown, black or silver panel Fender that doesn't have this pot. The 6G BAssman amps always had this pot. Other brown amps had it added to their circuit in the brown era. Take a look at the schematics, and you will see the changes to the 6G_ circutis over the course of the era.
I have a '63 prototype BF Pro that is a BF circuit in all respects except this one thing, It has these tapped treble pots in both channels, and it yield a different midrange than the pure BF circuit.
IT is difficult to get 'that' Seltzer sound without using exacctly the same equipment. An attenuator will change things sonically, also, imho. HE runs that 6G6B at 5-6 on the dial, and that is where the amp really starts to work and is dynamically flexible. IT is the moving air that makes things happen, to a great degree.
IF I wanted a little house amp to play that music, I might go for a 6G2 Princeton and run it into a closed back cab. IT is still going to be loud by the time you move some air, but it won't be as loud as the 6G6B pushing 2X12's.
Then, there's another side to the coin. I once read on a 45RPM record label...volume is a state of mind. TO some extent that is true. However, another record said "Turn the volume up all the way" LOL Tonal richness at any volume....that's the quest, eh?
Oh, and where do I get a set of Brian SEtzer's ears and fingers? LOL

[gmann]

+1 on the Marsh 6G6-B. I got one last yr with a 1/2 power sw. and it is an amazing amp. I've only ever used the 1/2 pwr sw. once but it did seem to work well. The amp is great at any type of music I use it for which is mostly blues based rock. FWIW nothing looks cooler than a blond Bassman! Also, Marsh now makes a 6G6A/B. it comes with a tube rectifier that can be switched out of the ckt to make it a 6G6B, pretty cool IMO!

[imsilly]

Related question; how closely related are the Normal Channels on Bassman 6G6 an Bandmaster 6G7-A amps?

[Wally]

Originally Posted by imsilly

Related question; how closely related are the Normal Channels on Bassman 6G6 an Bandmaster 6G7-A amps?

The cathodes are tied together on the 6G7A in the first two stages with 820 ohm resistors. This is very similar to having a 1500 ohm resistor on each cathode. The Bassman has a 1500 ohm on the first stage and a 2700ohm on the second stage. That makes the second stage a bit 'cooler' on the gain side form the resistance pint of view.
The BAssman has higher voltages to the preamp than does the Bandmastaer.
All of the 6G6 BAssman amps have the tapped treble pot whereas the 6G7A is the only 6G Bandmaster that has this pot.
So, similar but different right? I would figure the BAndmaster is just a bit warmer due to the resistance in the second stage and the lower voltages.

[JohnnyCrash]

I know this thread is pretty old, but perhaps you can install a PPIMV control (Post Phase Inverter Master Volume) on the back of the amp (in the extra speaker jack)?

A PPIMV is easy to install (its just a dual pot and two resistors).

I've done it on a 50w "plexi" build and it sounds incredible at even low volumes.

[Wally]

LOL, JOhnny, I need to take a look at the beginning dates for these threads, don't I?

[David Barnett]

Originally Posted by Wally

The cathodes are tied together on the 6G7A in the first two stages with 820 ohm resistors. This is very similar to having a 1500 ohm resistor on each cathode. The Bassman has a 1500 ohm on the first stage and a 2700ohm on the second stage. That makes the second stage a bit 'cooler' on the gain side form the resistance pint of view.
The BAssman has higher voltages to the preamp than does the Bandmastaer.
All of the 6G6 BAssman amps have the tapped treble pot whereas the 6G7A is the only 6G Bandmaster that has this pot.
So, similar but different right? I would figure the BAndmaster is just a bit warmer due to the resistance in the second stage and the lower voltages.

Also the Bandmaster has a smaller output transformer core than the Bassman.

[Wally]

And that smaller OT would yield a less punchy, more singin' sonic quality to a guitar when pushed.

[fluw]

can anyone link or suggest recordings they know a 6g6b bassman was used other than by brian setzer. i've heard the beach boys mentioned george harrison, mccartney, mike campbell, but no-one has ever mentioned which songs or posted any links...videos etc.

any help is greatly appreciated.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by fluw

can anyone link or suggest recordings they know a 6g6b bassman was used other than by brian setzer. i've heard the beach boys mentioned george harrison, mccartney, mike campbell, but no-one has ever mentioned which songs or posted any links...videos etc.

any help is greatly appreciated.

fluw, you might try google/bing/some search engine to find 'amplifiers or equipment used by ______". Sometimtes you will find loads of info on recordings and performance equipment used by whatever player you use in the search.

[Columbus]

Originally Posted by fluw

can anyone link or suggest recordings they know a 6g6b bassman was used other than by brian setzer. i've heard the beach boys mentioned george harrison, mccartney, mike campbell, but no-one has ever mentioned which songs or posted any links...videos etc.

any help is greatly appreciated.

I'm not sure of any particular artists, but you might also want to try to find some info about what the early '60s American surf and instrumental groups used. I know I've seen photos of some of these groups (although can't remember exactly which ones) with brown/blonde Fenders.

[David Barnett]

Originally Posted by fluw

can anyone link or suggest recordings they know a 6g6b bassman was used other than by brian setzer. i've heard the beach boys mentioned george harrison, mccartney, mike campbell, but no-one has ever mentioned which songs or posted any links...videos etc.

any help is greatly appreciated.

I think it's a reasonably safe bet that George Harrison used the 6G6B Bassman amp for his part of the 3-part duelling solos in the song "The End" on The Beatles' album "Abbey Road". Not sure if he used the "Lucy" Les Paul guitar or the "Rocky" Stratocaster. When they take turns trading off licks, the order is always McCartney-Harrison-Lennon.

[playon]

Not too well known is the fact that Pete Townshend used a blond Bassman on all of the early Who stuff, previous to the Hiwatt era. Check out early Who videos on youtube...