Blues Jr. + ES-355 = ???

drewsblues · September 20th, 2008, 05:59 PM

I've got a gig next weekend. First time playing with this group. The band leader has requested that I play my ES-335, as it lends more "authenticity" to the look and sound of the group (harp, drums, upright bass, and me -- it's a jump blues outfit).

I'll be toting my Blues Jr. to the gig, as it's a small venue, but I'm having a hard time dialing in a good tone when I plug that bucker'd beauty into the Jr. Lot's of low-frequency buzzing and vibrating that's not so much noticeable by itself as it is a part of the "tone."

I'll keep tweaking and see what I can come up with. In the meantime, anyone else out there plugging a Gibby with humbuckers into a BJr. and getting satisfactory results? How are you doing it?

Thanks in advance, folks!

EDIT: I guess I should mention that I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible... direct into the amp, or maybe a little bit of compression to smooth things out a wee bit.

And, yes: I would normally play my Tele. Until last night when I met with the band leader that was my plan. The best laid plans, as you know...

Webfoot · September 20th, 2008, 07:13 PM

Short term solution is to lower the pickup heights (especially on the pickup side that is under the bass strings). Another option is to replace the V1 tube with a lower gain tube (replace 12ax7 with a 12AY7).

wangdangdoodle · September 20th, 2008, 08:29 PM

Just take your Tele

backalleyblues · September 20th, 2008, 08:55 PM

What wangdangdoodle said...

Actually, dial down the bass some and brighten up the amp (bright switch + treble), that'll clear up some of the muddiness with the 335 (or almost any humbucker-equipped guitar) this will help it sound more balanced.

Franc (penguinzee)

wangdangdoodle · September 20th, 2008, 10:35 PM

Besides wouldn't a Tele look more authentic as it's 6 years older than a 335?

Sorry just a big Tele fan here

The O.K. · September 21st, 2008, 01:05 AM

I think that Tele's and ES 335s are on totally opposite ends of the spectrum. I own both. I think that they can easily, both, be played in the same contexts (blues, jazz, rock, etc...) but with different results. I am really in love with my Tele so I really do not play my ES335 all that much. For the Gibson, you definitely need to turn down the lows, and the volume on the amp will be more tricky, especially if you have been playing a Tele through the thing for a long time. Personally, I would not want anybody telling me what guitar to play. The ES335 is nice, but while I am playing gigs, it is just too much work to **** with the two separate volume and tone knobs and the amp to boot. The Tele is great in this respect, especially when you play with both PUPs on, one tone, one volume knob.

I am most certain that you will get awesome sounds using the BJ and the ES335 in tandem, but I believe in long term relationships so you better keep those two together for a while ( I would recommend). I think that I will play my Tele and BJ together for years to come, and if a band leader tells me to play something else, I might tell him to go and screw (unless he is paying me handsomely which I doubt will ever happen).

91xlntS-3 · September 21st, 2008, 12:30 PM

Been a while since I played either of my LP's (only have 2 left, sold the rest) especially thru my BJr. I only gig with my Teles thru my BJr. As suggested, try lowering p-up height on the 335, unless you play the 335 thru a different amp and already have a "sweet spot" dialed in for that combo, then I'd probably just try adjusting out the amp.

I personally would have a hard time playing for someone who wanted to decide for me, what gear I was going to use. He may be the band leader, but you are the guitarist. You know your gear better than he ever will. If he wants a particular "tone" or "sound", then you should be able to dial it in with your gear. If he knows you as a guitarist and has heard you play, has he ever heard you play with the 335? Looks aren't everything, it how it sounds out front that matters!

You'll have to decide what to do, if it were me, I'd take both guitars and see for myself which one works best for me! Good Luck!!

tjalla · September 21st, 2008, 03:10 PM

Good suggestions so far. Another good trick with buckers is to run the guitar volumes on 5, its kinda like lowering your pickup heights (but not quite the same)

Master on full, fat off, bass on 0-1. Not sure how compression will really help here, you the BJr should be adding some, even at low band levels.

Billm · September 21st, 2008, 03:30 PM

The TwinStack mod, tone stack mod, and power supply stiffening will all work together to greatly improve the Blues Junior's performance with humbuckers. Being able to pull out all the mids or reduce them below the stock level really cleans up the bass and helps take the mud out. And when you stiffen the power supply, there's less mud to begin with.

Rocks · September 21st, 2008, 03:39 PM

Just ask him whats more important, sounding good or looking good?

jazztele · September 21st, 2008, 05:25 PM

bring the tele and the 355 and "break a string" while warming up.

"oh my goodness, i seem to have forgotten to bring extra strings. i suppose i'll have to play this old telecaster."

Stewart Ward · September 21st, 2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewsblues

I'll be toting my Blues Jr. to the gig, as it's a small venue, but I'm having a hard time dialing in a good tone when I plug that bucker'd beauty into the Jr. Lot's of low-frequency buzzing and vibrating that's not so much noticeable by itself as it is a part of the "tone."

I use a Tele, 175 and 335... the 175 is far louder than the 335, so I know your 'bass' problems only too well!

If it's any help, I made myself a simple 'bass cut' box many years ago and I find it indispensible! You can cut the bass by switching between any of the six caps in series with the guitar signal. It will reduce the gain a bit... but you can always turn up the gain control a tad to compensate.

Plug guitar into input and the output to your amp... that's it!

Schematic below! You can get most parts quite easily.

Good luck with the new band.

Doc · September 21st, 2008, 07:45 PM

I play buckers into a stock BJ a lot (2000 version). I like as 12ay7 in V1. I also think that perhaps a Treble Booster or TS style pedal may actually help (takes up no more space than a compressor).

drewsblues · September 21st, 2008, 09:03 PM

Thanks for the excellent advice, everyone.

The guy who's hiring me is actually very cool about it. It wasn't like, "you don't get the gig unless your guitar has humbuckers and f-holes." But we were shooting the breeze between sets when I went to check him out the other night, and I mentioned that, in addition to my beloved Tele, I also had a Strat and a 335 (not a 355, as I mistakenly typed in the subject of this thread). His eyes lit up at the mention of the 335 and he encouraged me to bring that guitar.

My new plan is to bring both guitars and go direct into the amp. I'll dial in adequate sounds for each guitar and just jot them on an index card. If it's not happening with the 335, I'll switch to the Tele at the first opportunity. It's amazing how differently the two instruments feel, in addition to the whole sound thing. I guess it shouldn't be. I loved that 335 when I first got it... but then I got a Tele. After that, it was "dim the lights, you can guess the rest," to paraphrase Mr. Ferry.

As for the Gibbo... I've found that cutting most of the bass (on 2) and mids (on 4) and leaving the fat switch off lends a usable tone. I'm running the volume at around 4 and the master at 3 (for now. anything else is too loud for the living room -- I thought the Blues Jr was loud with my Tele... sheesh!). I can do further tweaking from the guitar controls. The suggestion to run the guitar volumes half-way works nicely.

On most of those Little Walter recordings, the guitar sounds like it's inside a cardboard box anyway, so I'll probably keep the tone controls rolled off a fair amount. It's just a matter of finding a balance between "dark" and "muddy."

Anyway, thanks again for the advice. It's always great to hear what you folks have to say. I'll let you know how it goes...

Bill · September 22nd, 2008, 01:49 AM

Yeah, I really agree with the turning down the 335. I have an ES-347 and one nice thing about it is that it has coil taps. Gives a Fendery sound, and more "old Chicago blues". Doesn't overdrive the amp so much.

Stewart Ward · September 22nd, 2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

I play buckers into a stock BJ a lot (2000 version). I like as 12ay7 in V1. I also think that perhaps a Treble Booster or TS style pedal may actually help (takes up no more space than a compressor).

I just wanted to add a note why I prefer bass cut over treble boost (in this case)...

It is often possible you'll find that some amplifiers are unable to reduce the bass from your Gibson ES335 or ES175 style guitar enough for the kind of music you like to play. Particularly if it has been designed with Fender guitars in mind. This can be a real annoyance and cause you not to use the Gibson quite as much as you’d like.

Usually, players buy a treble booster which does overcome the problem to an extent. But all this is really doing is making the guitar pickup even hotter in the treble by adding gain at the high frequencies! If you are happy with the natural treble output of your pickups (and the treble volume), then a booster might make the guitar sound brash or piercing.

In this case, what we really should be thinking is to CUT the bass... NOT boost the treble? There is a difference, because boosting the treble will cause your amp to overdrive much more easily when that’s not what you want. Also cutting the bass ensures that the treble maintains a balance with the mids too.

Cutting the bass also means that, with mild distortion set on your amp, it will still break up nicely on the highs, but be a lot cleaner on the lows... bringing that desirable on-the-edge tone to your Gibson, that you probably already get from your Fender equipped with less hot and less bassy pickups.

This is just a bit of lateral thinking at work... boosting anything is not always desirable IMHO. Although 'boost' is a positive, whereas 'cut' is a negative; and so much marketing is focused at positive terms. This can make us overlook a negative action, like this one, which turns out to be pleasantly POSITIVE! If you get my drift............. OK, I'll shut up!

BTW, the Bass Cut schematic below will not affect your natural tone when set to bypass... it will be as if it were not there at all.

Doc · September 22nd, 2008, 10:41 PM

I see where you are coming from but in my case I use the Java Boost and really do not use it as a trble booster (many folks do not). Rather I use it as a very light fuzz, and run it in "full range" mode which really does nore really add much if any treble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

I just wanted to add a note why I prefer bass cut over treble boost (in this case)...

It is often possible you'll find that some amplifiers are unable to reduce the bass from your Gibson ES335 or ES175 style guitar enough for the kind of music you like to play. Particularly if it has been designed with Fender guitars in mind. This can be a real annoyance and cause you not to use the Gibson quite as much as you’d like.

Usually, players buy a treble booster which does overcome the problem to an extent. But all this is really doing is making the guitar pickup even hotter in the treble by adding gain at the high frequencies! If you are happy with the natural treble output of your pickups (and the treble volume), then a booster might make the guitar sound brash or piercing.

In this case, what we really should be thinking is to CUT the bass... NOT boost the treble? There is a difference, because boosting the treble will cause your amp to overdrive much more easily when that’s not what you want. Also cutting the bass ensures that the treble maintains a balance with the mids too.

Cutting the bass also means that, with mild distortion set on your amp, it will still break up nicely on the highs, but be a lot cleaner on the lows... bringing that desirable on-the-edge tone to your Gibson, that you probably already get from your Fender equipped with less hot and less bassy pickups.

This is just a bit of lateral thinking at work... boosting anything is not always desirable IMHO. Although 'boost' is a positive, whereas 'cut' is a negative; and so much marketing is focused at positive terms. This can make us overlook a negative action, like this one, which turns out to be pleasantly POSITIVE! If you get my drift............. OK, I'll shut up!

BTW, the Bass Cut schematic below will not affect your natural tone when set to bypass... it will be as if it were not there at all.

eggman · September 23rd, 2008, 11:21 PM

Howdy,

You lucky devil!

Eggman

dtfan4ever · September 24th, 2008, 01:09 AM

Wouldn't putting a pair of Eric Johnson Dimarzio humbuckers fix the problem? If memory serves me correctly, those things were designed for this particular situation.

drewsblues · September 24th, 2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtfan4ever

Wouldn't putting a pair of Eric Johnson Dimarzio humbuckers fix the problem? If memory serves me correctly, those things were designed for this particular situation.

Long term, maybe. But I've got the gig on Saturday night, and I'm not really interested in "de-stocking" my 335. I'm too busy practicing (and posting here)!

So far, turning the bass and mids down and setting the guitar volume about halfway is doing the trick for me. I'm actually using the tone control to switch from rhythm to lead -- down for boxy sounding rhythm, up for more clear, bright leads. It's working so far...

tjalla · September 24th, 2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewsblues

So far, turning the bass and mids down and setting the guitar volume about halfway is doing the trick for me.

Essentially shaping that 335 to be as tele-like as possible. Nice work!

Oh, I just remembered another quick mod - I used to do this. Unscrew the polepieces out of the buckers, takes 5mins and is 100% reversible if you don't like the sound. That'll get you into single-coil territory while keeping the 335 vibe and look.

badmelonfarmer · September 24th, 2008, 11:57 AM

personally, I would be a little sneaky. ;-)

in rehersal .. use your tele and make sure he hears the great tone.

.... then make the 335 tone sound bad...

hopefully they we see the error or their ways.

cheers

BMF

anacephalic · September 25th, 2008, 03:50 PM

I think ya'll are making this too hard. Run both pups on the 335 and balance the front and rear to get the clarity/eliminate boominess as needed. Don't max out either pup's volume knob to reduce the gain some. That bridge pup should have all the bite you need and the neck adds body as required. You might need to tweak the amp tones a little but i swap between my strat and 335 all the time during a night without touching the amp. I usually a Z but i was using a BJ last week and it was a pretty cool...it put me on the look out for one. I cranked the BJ, turned up the mids and rolled off the guitar volume and it sounded great.

I should add that i finger pick a lot, if not most of the time. To me, playing dynamics and staying away from full barre chords goes a long way in getting the most out of the 335.

As a comment to a to pickup height recommendation i saw above: i sunk mine in a ways on all my bucker guitars, balancing them front to back for volume and tweaking poles as needed to balance each pup across the strings. Sinking the pups deeper seems to give a warmer, more natural woody tone than having them up close to the string. It takes some experimenting to find where they sound best. Doing the balancing act is definitely worth it.

September 20th, 2008, 05:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
drewsblues Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 266 9 Photos	Blues Jr. + ES-355 = ??? I've got a gig next weekend. First time playing with this group. The band leader has requested that I play my ES-335, as it lends more "authenticity" to the look and sound of the group (harp, drums, upright bass, and me -- it's a jump blues outfit). I'll be toting my Blues Jr. to the gig, as it's a small venue, but I'm having a hard time dialing in a good tone when I plug that bucker'd beauty into the Jr. Lot's of low-frequency buzzing and vibrating that's not so much noticeable by itself as it is a part of the "tone." I'll keep tweaking and see what I can come up with. In the meantime, anyone else out there plugging a Gibby with humbuckers into a BJr. and getting satisfactory results? How are you doing it? Thanks in advance, folks! EDIT: I guess I should mention that I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible... direct into the amp, or maybe a little bit of compression to smooth things out a wee bit. And, yes: I would normally play my Tele. Until last night when I met with the band leader that was my plan. The best laid plans, as you know... __________________ -- Drew

September 20th, 2008, 08:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
wangdangdoodle Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Leeds, UK Age: 19 Posts: 176	Just take your Tele __________________ http://www.myspace.com/jamsblues

September 20th, 2008, 08:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
backalleyblues Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tampa Bay, FL, USA Age: 45 Posts: 324	What wangdangdoodle said... Actually, dial down the bass some and brighten up the amp (bright switch + treble), that'll clear up some of the muddiness with the 335 (or almost any humbucker-equipped guitar) this will help it sound more balanced. Franc (penguinzee) __________________ "It don't mean a thang if it ain't got that TWANG!!"

September 20th, 2008, 10:35 PM	#5 (permalink)
wangdangdoodle Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Leeds, UK Age: 19 Posts: 176	Besides wouldn't a Tele look more authentic as it's 6 years older than a 335? Sorry just a big Tele fan here __________________ http://www.myspace.com/jamsblues

September 21st, 2008, 03:39 PM	#10 (permalink)
Rocks Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ohio Age: 47 Posts: 731	Just ask him whats more important, sounding good or looking good? __________________ Rocks Rocks Blues Guitars

September 20th, 2008, 07:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
Webfoot TDPRI Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 75	Short term solution is to lower the pickup heights (especially on the pickup side that is under the bass strings). Another option is to replace the V1 tube with a lower gain tube (replace 12ax7 with a 12AY7).

September 21st, 2008, 01:05 AM	#6 (permalink)
The O.K. Tele-Meister Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southern California Age: 30 Posts: 150	I think that Tele's and ES 335s are on totally opposite ends of the spectrum. I own both. I think that they can easily, both, be played in the same contexts (blues, jazz, rock, etc...) but with different results. I am really in love with my Tele so I really do not play my ES335 all that much. For the Gibson, you definitely need to turn down the lows, and the volume on the amp will be more tricky, especially if you have been playing a Tele through the thing for a long time. Personally, I would not want anybody telling me what guitar to play. The ES335 is nice, but while I am playing gigs, it is just too much work to **** with the two separate volume and tone knobs and the amp to boot. The Tele is great in this respect, especially when you play with both PUPs on, one tone, one volume knob. I am most certain that you will get awesome sounds using the BJ and the ES335 in tandem, but I believe in long term relationships so you better keep those two together for a while ( I would recommend). I think that I will play my Tele and BJ together for years to come, and if a band leader tells me to play something else, I might tell him to go and screw (unless he is paying me handsomely which I doubt will ever happen).

September 21st, 2008, 12:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
91xlntS-3 Tele-Holic Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 731	Been a while since I played either of my LP's (only have 2 left, sold the rest) especially thru my BJr. I only gig with my Teles thru my BJr. As suggested, try lowering p-up height on the 335, unless you play the 335 thru a different amp and already have a "sweet spot" dialed in for that combo, then I'd probably just try adjusting out the amp. I personally would have a hard time playing for someone who wanted to decide for me, what gear I was going to use. He may be the band leader, but you are the guitarist. You know your gear better than he ever will. If he wants a particular "tone" or "sound", then you should be able to dial it in with your gear. If he knows you as a guitarist and has heard you play, has he ever heard you play with the 335? Looks aren't everything, it how it sounds out front that matters! You'll have to decide what to do, if it were me, I'd take both guitars and see for myself which one works best for me! Good Luck!!

September 21st, 2008, 03:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
tjalla Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 1,897 7 Photos	Good suggestions so far. Another good trick with buckers is to run the guitar volumes on 5, its kinda like lowering your pickup heights (but not quite the same) Master on full, fat off, bass on 0-1. Not sure how compression will really help here, you the BJr should be adding some, even at low band levels.

September 21st, 2008, 03:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
Billm Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey Age: 62 Posts: 481 1 Photos	The TwinStack mod, tone stack mod, and power supply stiffening will all work together to greatly improve the Blues Junior's performance with humbuckers. Being able to pull out all the mids or reduce them below the stock level really cleans up the bass and helps take the mud out. And when you stiffen the power supply, there's less mud to begin with.

September 21st, 2008, 05:25 PM	#11 (permalink)
jazztele Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: chicago Age: 29 Posts: 2,205	bring the tele and the 355 and "break a string" while warming up. "oh my goodness, i seem to have forgotten to bring extra strings. i suppose i'll have to play this old telecaster." __________________ “For the guitar is the most unpredictable and least reliable musical instrument in existence...and also the sweetest, the warmest, the most delicate, whose melancholic voice awakes in our soul exquisite reveries.” Andres Segovia

September 21st, 2008, 07:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
Doc Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: South Dakota Posts: 971	I play buckers into a stock BJ a lot (2000 version). I like as 12ay7 in V1. I also think that perhaps a Treble Booster or TS style pedal may actually help (takes up no more space than a compressor). __________________ Guitars: Teles, LP, others. Amps: El Diablo, Richter 5E3, 5E3 Head, Traynor Bass Master II, Epi Jr Head, Gretsch/Supro, 60's Univox and others. Current Board-Guitar>Tuner>Java Boost> Huckleberry>Fuzz Head>Top Fuel>SFX-03> Keeley Comp>Clone Chorus>FL3> Amp

September 21st, 2008, 09:03 PM	#14 (permalink)
drewsblues Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 266 9 Photos	Thanks for the excellent advice, everyone. The guy who's hiring me is actually very cool about it. It wasn't like, "you don't get the gig unless your guitar has humbuckers and f-holes." But we were shooting the breeze between sets when I went to check him out the other night, and I mentioned that, in addition to my beloved Tele, I also had a Strat and a 335 (not a 355, as I mistakenly typed in the subject of this thread). His eyes lit up at the mention of the 335 and he encouraged me to bring that guitar. My new plan is to bring both guitars and go direct into the amp. I'll dial in adequate sounds for each guitar and just jot them on an index card. If it's not happening with the 335, I'll switch to the Tele at the first opportunity. It's amazing how differently the two instruments feel, in addition to the whole sound thing. I guess it shouldn't be. I loved that 335 when I first got it... but then I got a Tele. After that, it was "dim the lights, you can guess the rest," to paraphrase Mr. Ferry. As for the Gibbo... I've found that cutting most of the bass (on 2) and mids (on 4) and leaving the fat switch off lends a usable tone. I'm running the volume at around 4 and the master at 3 (for now. anything else is too loud for the living room -- I thought the Blues Jr was loud with my Tele... sheesh!). I can do further tweaking from the guitar controls. The suggestion to run the guitar volumes half-way works nicely. On most of those Little Walter recordings, the guitar sounds like it's inside a cardboard box anyway, so I'll probably keep the tone controls rolled off a fair amount. It's just a matter of finding a balance between "dark" and "muddy." Anyway, thanks again for the advice. It's always great to hear what you folks have to say. I'll let you know how it goes... __________________ -- Drew

September 22nd, 2008, 01:49 AM	#15 (permalink)
Bill Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 2,668 59 Photos	Yeah, I really agree with the turning down the 335. I have an ES-347 and one nice thing about it is that it has coil taps. Gives a Fendery sound, and more "old Chicago blues". Doesn't overdrive the amp so much. __________________ B i l l B a e c k A journal of our year in London

September 23rd, 2008, 11:21 PM	#18 (permalink)
eggman Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bossier City,La. Posts: 1,165	Howdy, You lucky devil! Eggman

September 24th, 2008, 01:09 AM	#19 (permalink)
dtfan4ever TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 33	Wouldn't putting a pair of Eric Johnson Dimarzio humbuckers fix the problem? If memory serves me correctly, those things were designed for this particular situation. __________________ www.josebernardo.net www.myspace.com/josebernardo

September 24th, 2008, 11:57 AM	#22 (permalink)
badmelonfarmer Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 153	personally, I would be a little sneaky. ;-) in rehersal .. use your tele and make sure he hears the great tone. .... then make the 335 tone sound bad... hopefully they we see the error or their ways. cheers BMF

September 25th, 2008, 03:50 PM	#23 (permalink)
anacephalic TDPRI Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: omaha ne Age: 48 Posts: 37	I think ya'll are making this too hard. Run both pups on the 335 and balance the front and rear to get the clarity/eliminate boominess as needed. Don't max out either pup's volume knob to reduce the gain some. That bridge pup should have all the bite you need and the neck adds body as required. You might need to tweak the amp tones a little but i swap between my strat and 335 all the time during a night without touching the amp. I usually a Z but i was using a BJ last week and it was a pretty cool...it put me on the look out for one. I cranked the BJ, turned up the mids and rolled off the guitar volume and it sounded great. I should add that i finger pick a lot, if not most of the time. To me, playing dynamics and staying away from full barre chords goes a long way in getting the most out of the 335. As a comment to a to pickup height recommendation i saw above: i sunk mine in a ways on all my bucker guitars, balancing them front to back for volume and tweaking poles as needed to balance each pup across the strings. Sinking the pups deeper seems to give a warmer, more natural woody tone than having them up close to the string. It takes some experimenting to find where they sound best. Doing the balancing act is definitely worth it.