The Fender Princeton (non-reverb) Thread

chamberpop · September 15th, 2008, 11:35 AM

Greetings All,

This is for that selective few that have a preference for, questions about or reviews of the the often overlooked Fender Princeton (non-reverb) model. I am mostly talking about the blackface (1964-1967) and silverface (1968-1979) models. Many are the threads that warn interested potential buyers that the Princeton is NOT the same as the Princeton Reverb and that the Reverb models are unquestionably superior. And, though I think that anyone who dismisses the unparalleled beauty of the venerable Fender tube-driven spring reverb likely needs new caps for their head :-), I'm here to stand up for the great tone and usefulness of the NR models.

Though many cite the added tube and accompanying gain stage as the primary reason they prefer the PR, I will just say that I have developed an immense fondness for my 1965 Princeton specifically BECAUSE it does not break up starting at 5 on the volume knob. I've played lots of both versions of this model, and with a Tele I often find the overdrive on Princeton Reverbs to be loose, splatty and lacking in sustain. Chords can sound really cool in a Kinks/early Stones kind of way, but leads are another story. Now, before anyone gets indignant, I usually set the volume anywhere between 5 and 9 (depending on the room), and the Treble and Bass around 2 or 3. Anything higher and I tend to get too much ice-pick and bass flub. I also keep my Tele's tone knob around 7 or so to smooth it all out. My Princeton NR just has a gorgeous tube clean with a dose of richness that you can't get from a PR set at 8 on the volume. I also replaced the original Oxford speaker with an Eminence Ragin' Cajun (based on the suggestion of many on this Forum), and that adds a much louder, tighter, warmer, fatter and punchier element that easily allows my particular Princeton to keep up with a hard-hitting drummer, electric bass and lap steel. I just get a louder Fender tube clean with mine than any reverb model I've played has been able to deliver. I also put JJ 6V6S power tubes in, which seem to give it more overall presence and punch as well. I just use a Tube Screamer-type overdrive to goose the amp into the next level of VERY CONTROLLABLE tube grind when I need it. And, even with the TS engaged, I can ride a huge range of clean-to-drive tones just using my Tele's volume knob and picking dynamics.

So, for anyone interested in getting the best out of a Fender Princeton non-'verb, I highly suggest a trying good tubes and an efficient speaker, especially if you already use an overdrive pedal for drive tones. With these changes (and strong caps, of course), they're kinda like a manageable, lightweight baby Twin that you can run on from 6 to 9 for the best tone and have just the right volume level in a group setting. At least, that's what I'm getting out of it. Hey, if it's good enough for Mike Campbell...

And, if you don't agree -- that's cool, too.

c-pop

DMace · September 15th, 2008, 12:09 PM

Agree 100%! I absolutely Love my 1965 non-verb. I've debated selling it and buying a 'verb model, but every time I plug my '52RI Tele into it, or my Strat, or my Les Paul, I instantly remember why I love the thing so much. It's the most beautiful clean tone I've ever heard: chimey, but with a gorgeous sag due to the tube rectifier that allows for loads of spank and snap and twang. I've yet to use it in the studio, but I'm willing to bet it's going to record amazing as well. I was psyched to see Mike Campbell using two of them on the last Petty tour. Ever since I bought mine, I've been surprised that more players don't use one. And best of all, they are THE vintage amp bargain out there. I got mine a few years back for $350, and that was with all NOS tubes and an extra set of NOS 6V6s included. I'm sure you can pickup a blackface now for less than $800: a steal, imho.

aunchaki · September 15th, 2008, 12:13 PM

This is a good thread to have around! I'm hoping to build my first amp this year (if I can save the money for parts) and have settled on the Tweed Princeton circuit!

Scott S · September 15th, 2008, 01:05 PM

The tweed Princeton is cool, but it's a much different beast than the BF Princetons C-Pop is discussing.

Good luck with your build, though. If you have any questions along the way, just holler!

- Scott

Tim Armstrong · September 15th, 2008, 01:11 PM

About fifteen years ago, I had a really fine 1966 BF Princeton, and it was indeed delicious, tonally.

I will note that, dimed, it was just about as loud as a PR on about "6", and I found the level of breakup about the same (as in not much!). I had it modded for more gain (losing the tremelo) which made it about the same output as a PR, and gigged with it a few times, but had it returned to stock (I liked how it sounded, but it just seemed a shame to not have the tremelo!), and later sold it during a time of extreme financial distress. I miss that amp!

If I still had it, I think I'd go with a clean boost pedal rather than modding it...

Cheers, Tim

leonard22 · September 15th, 2008, 01:14 PM

i have to agree! i have a 79-80 SF Princeton that gets most of my playing time. i also have a vintage 65 vibrolux (that is my all time fav amp)and a 69 SF Bassman that because volume do not get much home use..... the vibrolux used to be the go to for everything, but as time has gone on, and i have been using the priceton more i find it to be more and more to my liking... it is a very dynamic amp... at all volumes above 5... i too use my guitar volume alot and my right hand to controll the sound. and i find the OD to be ... articulate if you will
... i used to think "less" of it because it was a later model and not a BF but after having it tuned up and listening with my ears an not my eyes..... i would have to say one of the most underated fender amps out there, and yes a steal $$ in comparison!

DH82c · September 15th, 2008, 01:16 PM

I had a BF that had an SFPR front panel (the guy had both and liked the SFPR but the BF look). It really didnt do anythign for me. I am (of course) kicking myself now. Since I got my VC I realise that I can live without reverb ;)

rdchapman · September 15th, 2008, 03:05 PM

I have both an 69 SF Princeton and a 67 BFPR. They both get plenty of use for sure. The SF has the most beautiful clean tone and is to die for with and external reverb. I always crank it to 10 and once I put on the NOS tubes, it really warmed up a lot. It is my favorite on gigs where I want to keep the volume down as once it's up, the boys have to limit their sound to stay at my level.
I would never sell either

DMace · September 15th, 2008, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdchapman

I have both an 69 SF Princeton and a 67 BFPR. They both get plenty of use for sure. The SF has the most beautiful clean tone and is to die for with and external reverb. I always crank it to 10 and once I put on the NOS tubes, it really warmed up a lot. It is my favorite on gigs where I want to keep the volume down as once it's up, the boys have to limit their sound to stay at my level.
I would never sell either

What's the external reverb you're using?

rdchapman · September 15th, 2008, 04:09 PM

I use a Fender reissue reverb.

DMace · September 15th, 2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdchapman

I use a Fender reissue reverb.

One the '63 Reverb Units? I noticed Mike Campbell had one of those on stage with his Princetons. How does it compare to an ordinary Fender verb? I've never played through one.

sjhusting · September 15th, 2008, 04:57 PM

I had a near-mint BF non-reverb Princeton which I stupidly sold before I moved to Yurrp thinking I couldn't use it here. I sold it for 75 bucks (in 1990). <sigh>. I sure wish I had that amp again. I've threatened to kill the guy I sold it to (an acquaintance) hoping that would frighten him into selling it back for what he paid, but he just laughed at me for some reason. I also put a SF Bassman in the trash.

What was I thinking? I won't mention the '65 Super or the Gibson Dove. I have atoned for these sins ever since. The Princeton was a great amp (they all were, actually).

steven

DMace · September 15th, 2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjhusting

I had a near-mint BF non-reverb Princeton which I stupidly sold before I moved to Yurrp thinking I couldn't use it here. I sold it for 75 bucks (in 1990). <sigh>. I sure wish I had that amp again. I've threatened to kill the guy I sold it to (an acquaintance) hoping that would frighten him into selling it back for what he paid, but he just laughed at me for some reason. I also put a SF Bassman in the trash.

What was I thinking? I won't mention the '65 Super or the Gibson Dove. I have atoned for these sins ever since. The Princeton was a great amp (they all were, actually).

steven

Steven, my heart goes out to you. We all have sinned over the years. I've left behind a SF Super Reverb, a '66 BF Twin (sounded like cathedral bells chiming with a Tele), a SF Bandmaster Reverb, and at a couple of times of true financial desperation, actually had the 1965 Princeton for sale, a potential buyer in my apartment testing it out, and suddenly came to my senses, as if by divine inspiration, when I heard the guy playing through the amp, and quickly ushered him out the door. Then there was the curly maple Custom Shop Gibson ES-335 that I sold for $500 cause I needed moving money....lo

ramseybella · September 15th, 2008, 05:33 PM

68 - 69?
Black face guts and a Kendrick black frame 10"

slauson slim · September 16th, 2008, 02:28 AM

My SF Princeton was a serendipitous find - at the dump. A cleaning, new tubes, a MOD 10-70 speaker, a run through by an amp tech and its a good little gig amp, especially with a 1x12" ext cab. Used at an outdoor county fair gig last year - miked, of course - with a Marshall BB-2.

What's really good is that, as much as the amp is now part of my gigging gear, I never would have thought about buying Princeton.

rdchapman · September 16th, 2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMace

One the '63 Reverb Units? I noticed Mike Campbell had one of those on stage with his Princetons. How does it compare to an ordinary Fender verb? I've never played through one.

Yes, a 63 reissue. I did the 6k6 tube swap also. Into that SF Princeton, it is sweet. When I use that setup, I don't use any pedals(they seem to give the reverb some trouble, at least to my ears), Volume, bass and treble are all on 10 on the amp. I leave the guitar wide open and just use hand dynamics, tone control and play in different spots on the guitar with and without a pick to get the tones and volumes I want. Using my Tele with the Don Mare's in it is the most beautiful clean I have ever heard. Not good for everything or everyone, but to me, stunning.

Tele295 · September 16th, 2008, 03:22 PM

My first amp was a silverface Princeton (NR). I think it's still in my mom's garage or something. I should dust it off.

jackleg · September 17th, 2008, 07:08 AM

i have a white knob '64. the speaker has been replaced with a 12" black widow.... any suggestions as to a better speaker choice????

stevieboy · September 17th, 2008, 01:42 PM

I've run into a keyboard player who uses one in band situations. It sounds great, however he has his keyboard set--organ, piano, etc. Very faithful sounds. I think that's quite a feat for a guitar amp, and it's plenty loud for him too.

chamberpop · October 15th, 2008, 10:56 AM

Just a little revival bump for anyone else interested this model and who haven't yet seen this thread buried back a dozen pages or so. Thanks to all who chimed in.

Regards,
c-pop

JJ · October 15th, 2008, 06:19 PM

I finally found the perfect amp for me a few years ago. Loaded with Rajun Cajun. Gets gigged on all sizes of stages 2-3 times a week.

Mandopicker · October 15th, 2008, 10:57 PM

Love this thread...

I respectfully cast my vote. Finally, a great amp that gets some kind words.

My 1973 Princeton was one of the first tube amps I ever got. It helped me to really appreciate low wattage tone and is totally pedal friendly.

From bedroom to bandstand...I just love mine.

Humble speaker suggestion...leave it a 10". Plugging it into a separate 12" works just fine.

Johnny Isaacs · October 16th, 2008, 01:13 AM

I'm a huge fan of the non-reverb Fender BF/SF amps. I'd love to have one of each! I have a non-reverb Deluxe that I love and a Bassman.

If I want reverb, I have a Fender Reverb Unit for that.

The Princeton is a great amp!

Johnny Isaacs

chamberpop · October 16th, 2008, 12:36 PM

Hey JJ,
Nice road case. I agree -- I use mine with drums, bass, and lapsteel and it works great in a live group setting. The Ragin Cajun definitely ups the volume and thickness of this model.

Cheers,
c-pop

DaBender · October 16th, 2008, 01:03 PM

In a similar vein, I have a 1964 Concert that is sort of a "poor man's Super Reverb". Incredibly, I see vintage Fender reverb unit's going for more on ebay than the blackface Concerts! I also think it's a little Twin-like, though with way more balls than a Princeton. I use it with or with an Alesis Nanoverb, great either way. It's ss-rectified, but that just adds to the Twin-like vibe.

chet · October 16th, 2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

About fifteen years ago, I had a really fine 1966 BF Princeton, and it was indeed delicious, tonally.

I will note that, dimed, it was just about as loud as a PR on about "6", and I found the level of breakup about the same (as in not much!). I had it modded for more gain (losing the tremelo) which made it about the same output as a PR, and gigged with it a few times, but had it returned to stock (I liked how it sounded, but it just seemed a shame to not have the tremelo!), and later sold it during a time of extreme financial distress. I miss that amp!

If I still had it, I think I'd go with a clean boost pedal rather than modding it...

Cheers, Tim

I have a good idea- I'll bring my non-reverb Princeton to your place and we'll compare the two side-by-side!

pedenphoto · October 16th, 2008, 11:41 PM

Has anyone in this thread noted that the 2 channels in the non reverb blackface Fenders are in phase and can be "jumped" with a simple guitar cord? Better yet an A+B box in the middle can let you use the 2nd channel as a built in distortion box , with tone controls. Very cool!! J. Peden

chet · October 17th, 2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedenphoto

Has anyone in this thread noted that the 2 channels in the non reverb blackface Fenders are in phase and can be "jumped" with a simple guitar cord? Better yet an A+B box in the middle can let you use the 2nd channel as a built in distortion box , with tone controls. Very cool!! J. Peden

If you "jumped" the inputs on a Princeton then how are you gonna plug in your guitar?

greggorypeccary · October 18th, 2008, 07:42 PM

I've had this Princeton (a 76?) for over 20 years. It's currently my living room "surf" set-up! I put in a Copperhead speaker and NOS tubes, I'm set for life here!

eggman · October 19th, 2008, 05:00 AM

Howdy,

Count me as being disappointed with the BF '65 Princeton. I had one for several years and to my ears, it didn't excel at anything. It wasn't good for getting my Ya-Ya's Out, like with my '68 Vibro Champ; that is it just didn't do raunch well. The trem was rather weak, too.

As for clean tones, the 6V6s and 10-inch AlNiCo speaker just weren't terribly good with my Teles. So what does this amp do well? On balance, she was trouble-free, portable and good for playing in assemblies at school; that is, it was a better choice than my little Vibro Champ for that sort of thing.

Swapped my BF '65 Princeton for an equally clean, mint '90 red knob "The Twin" and have never looked back. Now I've got an amp that excels at something: clean. I'm satisfied. If you like the BF Princeton, enjoy. If we all had the same tastes and preferences, this world would be awfully boring. I hope I haven't offended anyone; it's just that the BF Princeton proved a disappointment to me.

Eggman

PS: I hope I haven't come across as a flamer; It's just that I saw this thread and it reminded me of my disappointing experience with respect to tone.

younkint · October 19th, 2008, 06:57 AM

I have owned a 1965 non-reverb Princeton for over 35 years. It's dead stock. In all those years it's needed only a couple of tubes and a new wall plug.

I always wished it could growl, but it never really did with my old 335 and old Gretsch. It had a beautiful crisp tone, but no real "growl." However, about a year ago, I purchased a Texas model Highway One Telecaster. This is the model with the very hot pickups (that some love and some hate). The Texas tele and my old Princeton are a match made in Heaven. With volume cranked, that setup produces the most fantastic warm distortion I believe I've heard. The Princeton allows the Texas to give a range of tone that some have stated is not possible with this guitar. Fender knew what they were doing with the Texas model after all ...they must have had an old Princeton around.

My Princeton is not for sale. Ever.

chet · October 20th, 2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eggman

Howdy,

Count me as being disappointed with the BF '65 Princeton. I had one for several years and to my ears, it didn't excel at anything. It wasn't good for getting my Ya-Ya's Out, like with my '68 Vibro Champ; that is it just didn't do raunch well. The trem was rather weak, too.

As for clean tones, the 6V6s and 10-inch AlNiCo speaker just weren't terribly good with my Teles. So what does this amp do well? On balance, she was trouble-free, portable and good for playing in assemblies at school; that is, it was a better choice than my little Vibro Champ for that sort of thing.

Swapped my BF '65 Princeton for an equally clean, mint '90 red knob "The Twin" and have never looked back. Now I've got an amp that excels at something: clean. I'm satisfied. If you like the BF Princeton, enjoy. If we all had the same tastes and preferences, this world would be awfully boring. I hope I haven't offended anyone; it's just that the BF Princeton proved a disappointment to me.

Eggman

PS: I hope I haven't come across as a flamer; It's just that I saw this thread and it reminded me of my disappointing experience with respect to tone.

Your statements are perfectly understandable.

About ten years ago I had 2 silverface Princetons. One sounded pretty good (though not as good as the one I have now) and one sounded- dull and lifeless.

Maybe it's the caps and resistors or something.

trumpus · December 6th, 2008, 10:47 PM

This is my first post here, in fact, I found the forum while searching for info on the Princeton (NR) amps. I just picked up a non-functional '68 and am planning on getting started getting it back into shape.

I was wondering if anyone had any feelings about some of the mods that are out there for the PR amps (Blueprinting, stokes, paul C) mods? Are these even applicable to the NR version? Perhaps someone could recommend a few 10" speakers that work well with this amp. Here's a copy of a post I made in another thread regarding this amp - feel free to comment!

Quote:

Well, this has been a very fortuitous week indeed! I am the proud new owner of a very clean 1968 SF Drip Edge Princeton Non-Reverb.

Original tubes! - Mullard rectifier, RCA 6V6's, 12AX7 and 7025!

A friend of mine's father passed away and she found this when she was going through his things. She is not a guitar player in any way and knew I was into vintage amps. She gave me an unbelievably reasonable deal for this little guy, with the idea that I would have to end up putting some cash into it to get it up to speed.

So - the good news first...

- The amp is VERY clean. Not museum quality by any means, but very clean. It has one or two very small tears in the tolex and no tears in the grillcloth.
- It is the first SF year (a drip edge) and hence is a BF circuit.
- It has original tubes and I believe, and original speaker (but the label is missing)

Now, the bad news...

- The amp is essentially non-functional right now. When plugged in, the lamp lights and there is some sound, but it is *very, very* low. When I hit the strings hard the volume increases slightly and then fizzles, crackles and sputters. I'm not sure if this is a tube problem, cap/circuit issue or speaker problem because...
- The speaker wire, while original, is spliced in 2 places with duct tape
- The power cord is original for the first foot, and then is spliced, again with duct tape, to an old lamp cord (yikes!).

So - it seems I've got a bit of work to do. I've got an e-mail out to a new tech (Jim at Omega amps, about 2 hours away), one out to my local Fender tech in Raleigh and one out to Mike at KCA NOS tubes, since he fitted me with a nice set of tubes for my Vibrolux last year. I'm researching some upgrades/mods for the Princeton amps, of which there are apparently quite a few that are regarded as "essential" by the guys at TGP and the Fender forum. These include:

- "Blueprinting"
- "Stokes" and "Paul C" mods

I've also been told that I should consider
- Adding a standby switch and mid control to the back panel of the chassis
- Having a new baffle cut for a 12" speaker
- Replacing the OT with a beefier one, perhaps adding an adjustable bias to allow for 6L6's as well (this would bring the output to a level on par with a Deluxe Reverb)

As icing on the cake, when my friend gave me the amp, she told me there was a footswitch in the back. I thought it was going to be the switch for the vibrato, but boy was I wrong! Turns out it is an original Mu-Tron Micro V - the little brother of the Mutron III envelope filter. Apparently this was made in response to requests for a smaller version of the Mu-Tron III thagt could be powered by 9V. It is in relatively decent cosmetic shape, but, like the Princeton, doesn't work. Oddly enough, it suffers from a similar problem! Very low volume when engaged (essentially inaudible) but what I CAN hear, sounds as though the "effect" is working, but the output is low. I've got an e-mail out to a guy who specializes in fixing vintage Mutron effects, sso we'll see what comes of it!

It's been a good week, to say the least...I'm pretty psyched at the notion of getting this amp up and running. I love my Vibrolux, but man is that thing loud! 35W and no master basically means I can't turn it up past 3 (or 1.5 with humbuckers), making it a horrible amp for around the house. I'm thinking the 12W Princeton will be much more manageable.

Brian

eddiewagner · December 7th, 2008, 07:30 AM

i played last night my first gig with the silverface-princeton. the place was sooooo small, i could only turn it up to 4. i had it hooked up to a marshall 2x12" cab and had the most elegant, organic sound. 3 steps away was a table with 10 people eating and they had no complains. tomorrow night we will play in a rock-place. i will crank it up to 7 and the little princeton will blast. incredible amp. the only thing that bugs me, is the transormer, that runs on 110 volts and that i always have to carry a large 220/110-thing. i will get that changed whn its time to change tubes i guess.

Braxtone · December 7th, 2008, 01:41 PM

Hey guys. I'm new to the site. Had to weigh in on the Princeton NR. I just picked up what dates to be a 69. BF in SF shell. Picked it up for $450. Sounds sick.

ibodog · December 8th, 2008, 06:12 PM

Here's my Princeton story. In 1998 I was done with my originals band and moving into a small apartment. The amps I had were way too loud for apartment living so I stopped at the local used guitar shop to find a smaller amp and unload the big ones. This BF Princeton was sitting, lonely, in a corner of the store. I played it for a few minutes and then bought it for $250. I played the amp on and off over the last 10 years at home, mostly with the volume not above 3 and didn't really think that much about it.

Last spring, coworkers at my new job asked me to join the "company" band and fill in for the rhythm guitarist that was going to be on vacation. So I had to use the Princeton. I was surprised at how well it held up for rehearsals and the gig. I used a MXR comp, Tube Screamer, and Matchless Hot Box in front of it. Only problem was the amp was just a little too quiet for the 6-piece band. So I decided to see what I could find out about the amp and get it fixed up.

I found out that the date code on the amp makes it a 1964 Princeton. The 10" speaker was some sort of Utah speaker which was not original to the amp, but was about the same 1964 vintage. I ordered new JJ tubes and a new Weber speaker (the one they recommend for Princetons) and took it to Savage amp's repair shop for a look-see. The inside was very clean with all original parts. But the trem was very weak. Savage ended up replacing the output caps and the caps for the trem and then setting the bias for the new JJ tubes. They popped the speaker in there for me, too. She's pretty loud and clean now and the trem is great! So new tubes, speaker, and caps totals up to about $400 of repairs back into this little $250 amp!

I've got a new 1x12 cab I'm going to use as an extension and I'd also like to get a 2x10 cab to re-use the Utah speaker. When I was at Savage they let me try a few speaker cabs with the Princeton and a 1x12 fills out the bottom end nicely while a 2x10 made it much more aggressive sounding. I almost think I'd like to move the amp into a head chassis and run the 1x12 and a 2x10 cab at the same time.

Anyone know what the ohmage requirements are for the BF Princeton internal and extermal speaker outputs? The original Utah and the replacement Weber are 8 ohm speakers. Would I be OK with 2 8 ohm cabs on this thing?

portsider · January 22nd, 2009, 01:26 PM

I scored a SF Princeton that is being delivered tonight for $425. It looks to be all original.

JohnnyCrash · January 22nd, 2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trumpus

This is my first post here, in fact, I found the forum while searching for info on the Princeton (NR) amps. I just picked up a non-functional '68 and am planning on getting started getting it back into shape.

I was wondering if anyone had any feelings about some of the mods that are out there for the PR amps (Blueprinting, stokes, paul C) mods? Are these even applicable to the NR version? Perhaps someone could recommend a few 10" speakers that work well with this amp. Here's a copy of a post I made in another thread regarding this amp - feel free to comment!

I wouldn't mod it.

Try new tubes and definitely replace the filter caps and the small electrolytics at the cathodes.

Once you get it back to working, then decide what you want to "fix."

Cool amp, nice photos :)

By the way, the description of the Kinks/early Stones was dead on... I could also get the early Who from them.

Scott S · January 22nd, 2009, 02:05 PM

+1 on saving the mods until you've heard it working properly.

- Scott

Columbus · January 23rd, 2009, 08:13 PM

I have a brown '62 Princeton that I really like. Obviously, it uses a different rectifier tube, lacks a bass control, and has a different circuit, but it is a great amp as well. The only think I don't like is that it seems to lack low end. The speaker I'm using probably has something to do with it (C10R RI), but are the later models the same way?

September 15th, 2008, 11:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
chamberpop TDPRI Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 98	The Fender Princeton (non-reverb) Thread Greetings All, This is for that selective few that have a preference for, questions about or reviews of the the often overlooked Fender Princeton (non-reverb) model. I am mostly talking about the blackface (1964-1967) and silverface (1968-1979) models. Many are the threads that warn interested potential buyers that the Princeton is NOT the same as the Princeton Reverb and that the Reverb models are unquestionably superior. And, though I think that anyone who dismisses the unparalleled beauty of the venerable Fender tube-driven spring reverb likely needs new caps for their head :-), I'm here to stand up for the great tone and usefulness of the NR models. Though many cite the added tube and accompanying gain stage as the primary reason they prefer the PR, I will just say that I have developed an immense fondness for my 1965 Princeton specifically BECAUSE it does not break up starting at 5 on the volume knob. I've played lots of both versions of this model, and with a Tele I often find the overdrive on Princeton Reverbs to be loose, splatty and lacking in sustain. Chords can sound really cool in a Kinks/early Stones kind of way, but leads are another story. Now, before anyone gets indignant, I usually set the volume anywhere between 5 and 9 (depending on the room), and the Treble and Bass around 2 or 3. Anything higher and I tend to get too much ice-pick and bass flub. I also keep my Tele's tone knob around 7 or so to smooth it all out. My Princeton NR just has a gorgeous tube clean with a dose of richness that you can't get from a PR set at 8 on the volume. I also replaced the original Oxford speaker with an Eminence Ragin' Cajun (based on the suggestion of many on this Forum), and that adds a much louder, tighter, warmer, fatter and punchier element that easily allows my particular Princeton to keep up with a hard-hitting drummer, electric bass and lap steel. I just get a louder Fender tube clean with mine than any reverb model I've played has been able to deliver. I also put JJ 6V6S power tubes in, which seem to give it more overall presence and punch as well. I just use a Tube Screamer-type overdrive to goose the amp into the next level of VERY CONTROLLABLE tube grind when I need it. And, even with the TS engaged, I can ride a huge range of clean-to-drive tones just using my Tele's volume knob and picking dynamics. So, for anyone interested in getting the best out of a Fender Princeton non-'verb, I highly suggest a trying good tubes and an efficient speaker, especially if you already use an overdrive pedal for drive tones. With these changes (and strong caps, of course), they're kinda like a manageable, lightweight baby Twin that you can run on from 6 to 9 for the best tone and have just the right volume level in a group setting. At least, that's what I'm getting out of it. Hey, if it's good enough for Mike Campbell... And, if you don't agree -- that's cool, too. c-pop

September 15th, 2008, 12:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
aunchaki Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Western New York Posts: 1,482 24 Photos	This is a good thread to have around! I'm hoping to build my first amp this year (if I can save the money for parts) and have settled on the Tweed Princeton circuit! __________________ Two Teles + One Strat + Three Acoustics (6, 12 & solidbody 6) + Two Mandolins (4 & 8 strings) + One Bass (5 strings) = 59 strings total

September 15th, 2008, 01:11 PM	#5 (permalink)
Tim Armstrong Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ocean Pines, Maryland, USA Age: 50 Posts: 13,047	About fifteen years ago, I had a really fine 1966 BF Princeton, and it was indeed delicious, tonally. I will note that, dimed, it was just about as loud as a PR on about "6", and I found the level of breakup about the same (as in not much!). I had it modded for more gain (losing the tremelo) which made it about the same output as a PR, and gigged with it a few times, but had it returned to stock (I liked how it sounded, but it just seemed a shame to not have the tremelo!), and later sold it during a time of extreme financial distress. I miss that amp! If I still had it, I think I'd go with a clean boost pedal rather than modding it... Cheers, Tim __________________ http://www.moodswingers.org

September 15th, 2008, 01:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
DH82c Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Montreal Age: 39 Posts: 444	I had a BF that had an SFPR front panel (the guy had both and liked the SFPR but the BF look). It really didnt do anythign for me. I am (of course) kicking myself now. Since I got my VC I realise that I can live without reverb ;) __________________ DISCLAIMER: Just because I said it doesnt mean you should do it. As always, wear your rubbers, probe with one hand, and make sure you have discharged everything.

September 15th, 2008, 04:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
sjhusting Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 941 16 Photos	I had a near-mint BF non-reverb Princeton which I stupidly sold before I moved to Yurrp thinking I couldn't use it here. I sold it for 75 bucks (in 1990). <sigh>. I sure wish I had that amp again. I've threatened to kill the guy I sold it to (an acquaintance) hoping that would frighten him into selling it back for what he paid, but he just laughed at me for some reason. I also put a SF Bassman in the trash. What was I thinking? I won't mention the '65 Super or the Gibson Dove. I have atoned for these sins ever since. The Princeton was a great amp (they all were, actually). steven __________________ "When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite" - WSC

September 15th, 2008, 12:09 PM	#2 (permalink)
DMace Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 2,933	Agree 100%! I absolutely Love my 1965 non-verb. I've debated selling it and buying a 'verb model, but every time I plug my '52RI Tele into it, or my Strat, or my Les Paul, I instantly remember why I love the thing so much. It's the most beautiful clean tone I've ever heard: chimey, but with a gorgeous sag due to the tube rectifier that allows for loads of spank and snap and twang. I've yet to use it in the studio, but I'm willing to bet it's going to record amazing as well. I was psyched to see Mike Campbell using two of them on the last Petty tour. Ever since I bought mine, I've been surprised that more players don't use one. And best of all, they are THE vintage amp bargain out there. I got mine a few years back for $350, and that was with all NOS tubes and an extra set of NOS 6V6s included. I'm sure you can pickup a blackface now for less than $800: a steal, imho.

September 15th, 2008, 01:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
Scott S Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SW CR IA US NA PE Age: 29 Posts: 2,834	The tweed Princeton is cool, but it's a much different beast than the BF Princetons C-Pop is discussing. Good luck with your build, though. If you have any questions along the way, just holler! - Scott

September 15th, 2008, 01:14 PM	#6 (permalink)
leonard22 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: jacksonville florida Age: 31 Posts: 141	i have to agree! i have a 79-80 SF Princeton that gets most of my playing time. i also have a vintage 65 vibrolux (that is my all time fav amp)and a 69 SF Bassman that because volume do not get much home use..... the vibrolux used to be the go to for everything, but as time has gone on, and i have been using the priceton more i find it to be more and more to my liking... it is a very dynamic amp... at all volumes above 5... i too use my guitar volume alot and my right hand to controll the sound. and i find the OD to be ... articulate if you will ... i used to think "less" of it because it was a later model and not a BF but after having it tuned up and listening with my ears an not my eyes..... i would have to say one of the most underated fender amps out there, and yes a steal $$ in comparison!

September 15th, 2008, 03:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
rdchapman Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Saratoga, NY Age: 55 Posts: 495	I have both an 69 SF Princeton and a 67 BFPR. They both get plenty of use for sure. The SF has the most beautiful clean tone and is to die for with and external reverb. I always crank it to 10 and once I put on the NOS tubes, it really warmed up a lot. It is my favorite on gigs where I want to keep the volume down as once it's up, the boys have to limit their sound to stay at my level. I would never sell either

September 15th, 2008, 04:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
rdchapman Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Saratoga, NY Age: 55 Posts: 495	I use a Fender reissue reverb.

September 15th, 2008, 05:33 PM	#14 (permalink)
ramseybella Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Santa Fe New Mexico Posts: 1,426 39 Photos	68 - 69? Black face guts and a Kendrick black frame 10"

September 16th, 2008, 02:28 AM	#15 (permalink)
slauson slim Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Yolo County CA Age: 61 Posts: 906	My SF Princeton was a serendipitous find - at the dump. A cleaning, new tubes, a MOD 10-70 speaker, a run through by an amp tech and its a good little gig amp, especially with a 1x12" ext cab. Used at an outdoor county fair gig last year - miked, of course - with a Marshall BB-2. What's really good is that, as much as the amp is now part of my gigging gear, I never would have thought about buying Princeton.

September 16th, 2008, 03:22 PM	#17 (permalink)
Tele295 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: St. Latchodrom, CA Posts: 4,004 14 Photos	My first amp was a silverface Princeton (NR). I think it's still in my mom's garage or something. I should dust it off. __________________ "Turn it up and it doesn't need any reverb." - Danny Gatton www.dannygatton.info Tiger Town Aces - Music That Bites Back In Redd we trust! Free Bill Kirchen! If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked, doesn't it follow that electricians can be delighted, musicians denoted, cowboys deranged, models deposed, tree surgeons debarked, and dry cleaners depressed?

September 17th, 2008, 07:08 AM	#18 (permalink)
jackleg Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 119	i have a white knob '64. the speaker has been replaced with a 12" black widow.... any suggestions as to a better speaker choice????

September 17th, 2008, 01:42 PM	#19 (permalink)
stevieboy Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: the valley Age: 58 Posts: 3,346 6 Photos	I've run into a keyboard player who uses one in band situations. It sounds great, however he has his keyboard set--organ, piano, etc. Very faithful sounds. I think that's quite a feat for a guitar amp, and it's plenty loud for him too.

October 15th, 2008, 10:56 AM	#20 (permalink)
chamberpop TDPRI Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 98	Just a little revival bump for anyone else interested this model and who haven't yet seen this thread buried back a dozen pages or so. Thanks to all who chimed in. Regards, c-pop

October 15th, 2008, 06:19 PM	#21 (permalink)
JJ Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 370	I finally found the perfect amp for me a few years ago. Loaded with Rajun Cajun. Gets gigged on all sizes of stages 2-3 times a week.

October 15th, 2008, 10:57 PM	#22 (permalink)
Mandopicker NEW MEMBER! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1	Love this thread... I respectfully cast my vote. Finally, a great amp that gets some kind words. My 1973 Princeton was one of the first tube amps I ever got. It helped me to really appreciate low wattage tone and is totally pedal friendly. From bedroom to bandstand...I just love mine. Humble speaker suggestion...leave it a 10". Plugging it into a separate 12" works just fine.

October 16th, 2008, 01:13 AM	#23 (permalink)
Johnny Isaacs Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,639 30 Photos	+1 here! I'm a huge fan of the non-reverb Fender BF/SF amps. I'd love to have one of each! I have a non-reverb Deluxe that I love and a Bassman. If I want reverb, I have a Fender Reverb Unit for that. The Princeton is a great amp! Johnny Isaacs __________________ Myspace music page I've never trusted a guitar player who hasn't licked a few 9volts... Famous last words...... after this one, no new Tele's!

October 16th, 2008, 12:36 PM	#24 (permalink)
chamberpop TDPRI Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 98	Hey JJ, Nice road case. I agree -- I use mine with drums, bass, and lapsteel and it works great in a live group setting. The Ragin Cajun definitely ups the volume and thickness of this model. Cheers, c-pop

October 16th, 2008, 01:03 PM	#25 (permalink)
DaBender Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Maine Age: 54 Posts: 225	In a similar vein, I have a 1964 Concert that is sort of a "poor man's Super Reverb". Incredibly, I see vintage Fender reverb unit's going for more on ebay than the blackface Concerts! I also think it's a little Twin-like, though with way more balls than a Princeton. I use it with or with an Alesis Nanoverb, great either way. It's ss-rectified, but that just adds to the Twin-like vibe.

October 16th, 2008, 11:41 PM	#27 (permalink)
pedenphoto TDPRI Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 53	Has anyone in this thread noted that the 2 channels in the non reverb blackface Fenders are in phase and can be "jumped" with a simple guitar cord? Better yet an A+B box in the middle can let you use the 2nd channel as a built in distortion box , with tone controls. Very cool!! J. Peden

October 18th, 2008, 07:42 PM	#29 (permalink)
greggorypeccary Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 966 33 Photos	I've had this Princeton (a 76?) for over 20 years. It's currently my living room "surf" set-up! I put in a Copperhead speaker and NOS tubes, I'm set for life here! __________________ I got the rockin' pneumonia, I need a shot of rhythm and blues! http://www.myspace.com/javablue

October 19th, 2008, 05:00 AM	#30 (permalink)
eggman Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bossier City,La. Posts: 1,621	Howdy, Count me as being disappointed with the BF '65 Princeton. I had one for several years and to my ears, it didn't excel at anything. It wasn't good for getting my Ya-Ya's Out, like with my '68 Vibro Champ; that is it just didn't do raunch well. The trem was rather weak, too. As for clean tones, the 6V6s and 10-inch AlNiCo speaker just weren't terribly good with my Teles. So what does this amp do well? On balance, she was trouble-free, portable and good for playing in assemblies at school; that is, it was a better choice than my little Vibro Champ for that sort of thing. Swapped my BF '65 Princeton for an equally clean, mint '90 red knob "The Twin" and have never looked back. Now I've got an amp that excels at something: clean. I'm satisfied. If you like the BF Princeton, enjoy. If we all had the same tastes and preferences, this world would be awfully boring. I hope I haven't offended anyone; it's just that the BF Princeton proved a disappointment to me. Eggman PS: I hope I haven't come across as a flamer; It's just that I saw this thread and it reminded me of my disappointing experience with respect to tone.

October 19th, 2008, 06:57 AM	#31 (permalink)
younkint Tele-Meister Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Spring, Texas Age: 56 Posts: 449 4 Photos	I have owned a 1965 non-reverb Princeton for over 35 years. It's dead stock. In all those years it's needed only a couple of tubes and a new wall plug. I always wished it could growl, but it never really did with my old 335 and old Gretsch. It had a beautiful crisp tone, but no real "growl." However, about a year ago, I purchased a Texas model Highway One Telecaster. This is the model with the very hot pickups (that some love and some hate). The Texas tele and my old Princeton are a match made in Heaven. With volume cranked, that setup produces the most fantastic warm distortion I believe I've heard. The Princeton allows the Texas to give a range of tone that some have stated is not possible with this guitar. Fender knew what they were doing with the Texas model after all ...they must have had an old Princeton around. My Princeton is not for sale. Ever. __________________ . -- Terry

IMPORTANT:Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult! No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.

December 7th, 2008, 07:30 AM	#34 (permalink)
eddiewagner Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: ROCK!linghausen/germany Age: 50 Posts: 5,058 27 Photos	i played last night my first gig with the silverface-princeton. the place was sooooo small, i could only turn it up to 4. i had it hooked up to a marshall 2x12" cab and had the most elegant, organic sound. 3 steps away was a table with 10 people eating and they had no complains. tomorrow night we will play in a rock-place. i will crank it up to 7 and the little princeton will blast. incredible amp. the only thing that bugs me, is the transormer, that runs on 110 volts and that i always have to carry a large 220/110-thing. i will get that changed whn its time to change tubes i guess. __________________ My Drum/Guitar-Duo: www.myspace.com/captaintwangandhisrhythmcat

December 7th, 2008, 01:41 PM	#35 (permalink)
Braxtone NEW MEMBER! Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Jacksonville, FL Age: 29 Posts: 5	Hey guys. I'm new to the site. Had to weigh in on the Princeton NR. I just picked up what dates to be a 69. BF in SF shell. Picked it up for $450. Sounds sick.

December 8th, 2008, 06:12 PM	#36 (permalink)
ibodog TDPRI Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 54	Here's my Princeton story. In 1998 I was done with my originals band and moving into a small apartment. The amps I had were way too loud for apartment living so I stopped at the local used guitar shop to find a smaller amp and unload the big ones. This BF Princeton was sitting, lonely, in a corner of the store. I played it for a few minutes and then bought it for $250. I played the amp on and off over the last 10 years at home, mostly with the volume not above 3 and didn't really think that much about it. Last spring, coworkers at my new job asked me to join the "company" band and fill in for the rhythm guitarist that was going to be on vacation. So I had to use the Princeton. I was surprised at how well it held up for rehearsals and the gig. I used a MXR comp, Tube Screamer, and Matchless Hot Box in front of it. Only problem was the amp was just a little too quiet for the 6-piece band. So I decided to see what I could find out about the amp and get it fixed up. I found out that the date code on the amp makes it a 1964 Princeton. The 10" speaker was some sort of Utah speaker which was not original to the amp, but was about the same 1964 vintage. I ordered new JJ tubes and a new Weber speaker (the one they recommend for Princetons) and took it to Savage amp's repair shop for a look-see. The inside was very clean with all original parts. But the trem was very weak. Savage ended up replacing the output caps and the caps for the trem and then setting the bias for the new JJ tubes. They popped the speaker in there for me, too. She's pretty loud and clean now and the trem is great! So new tubes, speaker, and caps totals up to about $400 of repairs back into this little $250 amp! I've got a new 1x12 cab I'm going to use as an extension and I'd also like to get a 2x10 cab to re-use the Utah speaker. When I was at Savage they let me try a few speaker cabs with the Princeton and a 1x12 fills out the bottom end nicely while a 2x10 made it much more aggressive sounding. I almost think I'd like to move the amp into a head chassis and run the 1x12 and a 2x10 cab at the same time. Anyone know what the ohmage requirements are for the BF Princeton internal and extermal speaker outputs? The original Utah and the replacement Weber are 8 ohm speakers. Would I be OK with 2 8 ohm cabs on this thing?

January 22nd, 2009, 01:26 PM	#37 (permalink)
portsider TDPRI Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa Fla. Age: 58 Posts: 17	I am joining the club I scored a SF Princeton that is being delivered tonight for $425. It looks to be all original. Last edited by portsider; January 23rd, 2009 at 09:11 AM.

January 22nd, 2009, 02:05 PM	#39 (permalink)
Scott S Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SW CR IA US NA PE Age: 29 Posts: 2,834	+1 on saving the mods until you've heard it working properly. - Scott

January 23rd, 2009, 08:13 PM	#40 (permalink)
Columbus Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 133	I have a brown '62 Princeton that I really like. Obviously, it uses a different rectifier tube, lacks a bass control, and has a different circuit, but it is a great amp as well. The only think I don't like is that it seems to lack low end. The speaker I'm using probably has something to do with it (C10R RI), but are the later models the same way?