MDF vs. solid pine for amp cab

[nigelcummings]

Does anyone have some real world side-by-side testing results from cabs made with MDF body and plywood spkr. baffle vs. solid pine body and baltic birch ply spkr. baffle?

[Wally]

Solid pine will resonate to the vibrations. An MDF cab is more like concrete....it doesn't want to rsonate to anything. HI-fi folks believe in non-resonance when building a speaker enclosure. Guitarists sometimes have other likes. IT is a marvel to feel and hear a Tweed cab jumping when the guitar is pumping. An mdf cab will likely yield better note definition. OF course, if you don't play with a certain level of volume, the question is moot...it is when you are pushing things that the difference will become more apparent.

[Coffeemutt]

Originally Posted by Wally

An MDF cab is more like concrete....it doesn't want to rsonate to anything. HI-fi folks believe in non-resonance when building a speaker enclosure.

Indeed. I don't know if they still use this construction, but THIEL Audio used to produce some high-end loudspeakers with actual cast-concrete baffles.

[4 Strings]

I heard a difference when I mounted my 5E3 clone in a Mojo 5E3 solid pine cab after having had it in a plywood cab for about a year. And I don't think it was all imagination .
I once had this example described to me: Hold a slab of plywood in your hand and give it a knock with your knuckles. The plywood will yield not much more than a hard, "high" sound. Now do the same thing with a slab of solid pine, or better yet a solid pine cab, and you will hear not only the high frequencies but also the lows. I may have read it in this article: http://www.victoriaamp.com/tonequest.html

[Sidney Vicious]

The MDF weighs about the same as concrete too.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by 4 Strings

I heard a difference when I mounted my 5E3 clone in a Mojo 5E3 solid pine cab after having had it in a plywood cab for about a year. And I don't think it was all imagination .
I once had this example described to me: Hold a slab of plywood in your hand and give it a knock with your knuckles. The plywood will yield not much more than a hard, "high" sound. Now do the same thing with a slab of solid pine, or better yet a solid pine cab, and you will hear not only the high frequencies but also the lows. I may have read it in this article: http://www.victoriaamp.com/tonequest.html

I certainly don't believe it was in your imagination, 4 strings. This is what
Nigel wants....some actual comparison. Yours wasn't side-by-side, but your 'tonal memory' of a year with that 5E3 clone in a plywood cab versus the solid pine should be of interest.
What were your observations of the sonic differences?

[tonebrulee]

No side-by-side experience, but, in general, materials have very limited - if any - impact on sound in an open-back cab design. Very different from the same construction considerations for sealed/ported designs - e.g. bass cabs, sealed guitar cabs, hi-fi loudspeakers.

FWIW - I would build with solid pine because it will be lighter than either MDF or ply. Good luck with your project!

[nigelcummings]

How about the solid pine vs. MDF in a medium to higher gain situation?

Say I'm doing some Pete Townsend style overdrive, or Angus Young overdrive with the amp (say we've got pedal in front driving it), how then will the 2 materials compare?

Would the pine become "wobbly" and "springy" sounding?

I find MDF becomes mid-rangey and boxy at higher volumes.

[nigelcummings]

What about drawing a comparison here.. looks like Fender uses solid pine for their 50's reissue cabs - like the Bassman and Deluxe.

But then they use Baltic Birch Plywood for the Twin Reverb Reissue.

Why the change in woods? What tonally is the ply offering that the pine does not? And where does MDF fit in or compare?

[ramseybella]

Like the difference between floating baffles and Jointed into the cab baffles!

[BobbyB]

Years ago I had a Marshall 50 watt head. I decided to make a Combo out of it! I made a all Mahogany Cab and used a EVM12L speaker. That thing resonated like no other amp! What a beautiful tone that Marshall had.
I sold it when I stopped gigging cause it was too loud for home.
Wish I had it back
Cabs do make a huge difference

[Big John]

MDF with a foto flame finish and a 12" Eminence and it sounds great, i would be more worried about the speaker than the wood used to construct the box, i don't know how this thing is jointed but it is strong enough to take my weight.

[4 Strings]

Originally Posted by Wally

I certainly don't believe it was in your imagination, 4 strings. This is what
Nigel wants....some actual comparison. Yours wasn't side-by-side, but your 'tonal memory' of a year with that 5E3 clone in a plywood cab versus the solid pine should be of interest.
What were your observations of the sonic differences?

I found the solid pine cab to be more alive and woody sounding, whereas the plywood cab, in comparison, sounded rather dead. Simply what you would imagine from a more resonant cab.

Take your time and read through the Vicky article from Tone Quest Report to which I linked above. Mark Baier and the guys at Victoria Amps want to sell you their Vickies of course, but I don't think that he's just BS-ing when he talks about how much of the Tweed tone comes from the solid-pine-finger-jointed-open-back-cabs.

[Big John]

Originally Posted by 4 Strings

...........but I don't think that he's just BS-ing when he talks about how much of the Tweed tone comes from the solid-pine-finger-jointed-open-back-cabs.

But don't you think thats just because they are rigid, open back cabs ?
I am willing to believe a stiffer more stable joint would be better than a sloppy one and open back always sound different to closed backs but difference in actual tone depending on materials ? ........

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by Sidney Vicious

The MDF weighs about the same as concrete too.

+100

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by nigelcummings

What about drawing a comparison here.. looks like Fender uses solid pine for their 50's reissue cabs - like the Bassman and Deluxe.

But then they use Baltic Birch Plywood for the Twin Reverb Reissue.

Why the change in woods? What tonally is the ply offering that the pine does not? And where does MDF fit in or compare?

The reason Fender used (low quality Ponderosa) pine was that it was cheaply available from the Lake Taho region, cut into the widths he required by the mill. All they had to do at the factory was cut the planks to length and joint them into cabinets.

Other than that, Leo had few thoughts other than low cost and convenience. If it sounded better, then that would have been a side benefit. But not his prime interest! Leo was an outright production engineer obsessed with making stuff cheaply and would make machines specially to achieve that.

Leo spent years living on the bread-line working to get his company going. When he did, he wanted to make real money... and he did! God bless him!

[candh]

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

The reason Fender used (low quality Ponderosa) pine was that it was cheaply available from the Lake Taho region, cut into the widths he required by the mill. All they had to do at the factory was cut the planks to length and joint them into cabinets.

Other than that, Leo had few thoughts other than low cost and convenience. If it sounded better, then that would have been a side benefit. But not his prime interest! Leo was an outright production engineer obsessed with making stuff cheaply and would make machines specially to achieve that.

Leo spent years living on the bread-line working to get his company going. When he did, he wanted to make real money... and he did! God bless him!

Bingo!!

I think it was just a fluke that the pine cabs sounded so good. That's all I build these days because I do like the resonance, warmth and "bounce" pine produces.

[Stewart Ward]

Originally Posted by candh

Bingo!!

I think it was just a fluke that the pine cabs sounded so good. That's all I build these days because I do like the resonance, warmth and "bounce" pine produces.

This is just a personal view, but I'm not sure if I could honestly tell the difference between pine, ply, MDF or chipboard! I do have quite sensitive hearing but I have to say that, because of all the other inaccuracies in guitar amplification, I find it hard to give pine that much credit.

I have A/B'd ply and chipboard and confess, I could not tell any difference at all! We made hundreds of thousands of guitar amps made from chipboard throughout the 1980s and most of them are still in one piece today! So, frankly, I have absolutely no problem with using this 'frowned upon' material. It does a bloody fine job at a reasonable cost... provided you use the dense flooring grades! If it was commonly around when Leo started, I predict he would have used it.

MDF particles can cause lung cancer... so don't use this material unless you must! But use a face mask if you do!

Sure, long pine wood fibres may suggest increased cabinet resonances, but those resonances could just as easily be at the wrong frequencies!! I would prefer birch ply on the grounds of greater predictability and far superior strength. Although, on grounds of cost alone, chipboard would be just as good, unless you treat your amps roughly.

You see, as a manufacturer, I must be able to produce a consistent product. I don't want materials that will produce different sounding examples of the same design product. Players are investing in a particular tone/sound, so it's my responsibility to take every step to ensure the musician gets the sound he heard his idol producing at a concert. If what is suggested here is true, then pine would not be reliable enough, tonally, for me to offer that degree of consistency. Only ply, MDF or chipboard could guarantee to achieve what I need... even if it has not got a popular image with potential customers.

I do concede, that some amp makers will make their amps out of the materials the customers say they like because of popular belief just to avoid an argument and ease the flow of funds from your bank to theirs! Many boutique amp makers do tend to cater for 'customer opinions' rather than what is truely 'adequate' for the job.

Max Factor once said: "We don't sell makeup... we sell hope!" So are amp and guitar makers too! I think, perhaps, we ought to bare this in mind at times?

Just another view from the manufacturing side of the fence!

[Big John]

Originally Posted by Stewart Ward

...........Max Factor once said: "We don't sell makeup... we sell hope!" So are amp and guitar makers too! I think, perhaps, we ought to bare this in mind at times?

Well said !, somewhere around here is a post where Terry Downs built a body from MDF and put a Tele bridge and P/up on it, strung it up and recorded it and asked for idea's as to just what it was --- there were some interesting replies ! .

Sometimes you just have to trust your ears and not your eyes when you're listening.

[Rob DiStefano]

For me, it's all about the weight (the lack, thereof) and the resonance (love those bouncing cabs) - I'll take a dovetailed pine cab over MDF or plywood any day. It's all good, do what ya want.

Re: cheap Leo - bingo!