1949 Fender Pro- $28500.00 on E-Bay

[Wally]

I might observe that the fellow who has this amp up for auction is more than likely not going to sell the amp. We all know why that is. He is trying to sell it for a large amount of money...or at least get some inexpensive worldwide advertising and hoping to land a big fish at soem lower but still large price. Also, please note that I made the observation that the auction contains plenty of photographs of points of interest and therefore contention. He is not hiding anything from inquiring minds. He is making claims based on what he says he has learned about the amp from the people from whom he purchased it. HE admits that he cannot substantiate those claims.
IF anyone pays anything for this amp, one can be assured of this. They have had the opportunity to view the amp in photographic detail. They have been presented with the fact that this cabinet is definitely not a regular production Fender cabinet. They should be aware that the claims that the cab was custom built at Fender cannot be substantiated at this time. In other words, the buyer has been privy to revelations about the amp and should be aware. Caveat emptor.
You have to give the 'seller' that much....he has not hidden anything...even the fact that he cannot back up the claim of the amp being a custom-built Fender.
As far as the vague memory of what may or may not have happened on ebay some years ago, I leave that for you to ponder.
I suppose that I am in the position of feeling the way I do about this issue is that I have been subjected to the 'scrutiny' of someone regarding an amp that I showed...not for sale, just show....to the Forum here. His words... "'Doesn't this look too clean to be real?"...stung a bit. A couple of forum members noted that I am a forthright upstanding type of guy and that helped. It also helped to the knowing eye that everything about the amp was correct...and virginally clean. Way Rare.
I try to be as neutral as possible about these things. When indisputable proof that something is not just irregular but not authentic is presented, then I will accept it. Until then, the thing in question is just an oddity....and defintitly not worth ten times what it should be as a non-original until proof of rarity and originality is given. Also, until proof of fraud is established, I am not in the habit of claiming such has occurred.
IN closing, in reference to this amp on ebay I quote....."THAT’S ABOUT THE MOST BOGUS THING I HAVE EVER SEEN. BUT WHAT DO I KNOW." Unnamed source...
IN other words, there is every reason to think that the amp is a fake, but it is hard to KNOW that.

[Boogie]

Originally Posted by Wally

I might observe that the fellow who has this amp up for auction is more than likely not going to sell the amp.

So far he has declined five offers and counter-offered one.

[Neer]

I put a call in to a friend who was a Fender sales rep from the 50s on through Music Man, and there aren't many more knowledgeable than he, so I'll await his opinion and post it here.

[Boogie]

Q: I just wanted to add my two cents... I had an opportunity to buy this from the original owner, but backed out due to poor timing only... :( This amp is as original as it's gonna get... i've owned more than a few hundred amps, and i know some folks are looking at this complete oddity of an amp and just not believing... BUT, this amp is like finding a living friggin dinosaur... it aint gonna happen again anytime soon.... FENDER... GET THIS IN YOUR MUSEUM! later, Mike Jul-03-08

A: Thanks, we examined this amp from top to bottom, we spoke to and purchased from the original owners, they are looking for the original receipt, it's obvious when you're in the same room with the owners and have the opportunity to do the forensics that the amp was indeed made by Fender, this is truly a one of a kind rare and beautiful original piece, it is the most important find in the vintage amp community and will be for many many years to come, thanks, VG Hollywood

[ibobunot]

Originally Posted by Wally

IN other words, there is every reason to think that the amp is a fake, but it is hard to KNOW that.

..

[Boogie]

..

[Neer]

OK, here's the offiicial response from my friend and long-time associate of Leo Fender:

Mike...this guy has to be kidding..Ouch don't touch it..its a bummer and never saw anything like this in my life..the heck with him he's Bananas..


'Nuff said for me!

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by Flat357

Don't forget my 50%

;-)

[beach bob]

Originally Posted by Wally

I might observe that the fellow who has this amp up for auction is more than likely not going to sell the amp.

That doesn't exactly excuse him for putting up what is (IMO) a bogus eBay listing.

Originally Posted by Wally

... or at least get some inexpensive worldwide advertising and hoping to land a big fish at some lower but still large price.

Hm, yes. He might 'settle' for a third or less of his BIN; say $8k. And go crying straight to the bank ... having ripped off someone for $6k over what the thing is worth.

Originally Posted by Wally

He is not hiding anything from inquiring minds.

Erm, to use your terminology, you cannot KNOW this. Note Guitarslinger1's story about the REFIN stamp on the '57 strat... Sure there's lots of pics, but you cannot say for sure that everything has been revealed.

Originally Posted by Wally

He is making claims based on what he says he has learned about the amp from the people from whom he purchased it. HE admits that he cannot substantiate those claims.

Um, not the way I see it. In the Q&A section, He states that he cannot guarantee that she will find the receipt. Not the same thing. In several other places in the listing, he guarantees it to be 100% original.

Originally Posted by Wally

They should be aware that the claims that the cab was custom built at Fender cannot be substantiated at this time. <edit> he has not hidden anything...even the fact that he cannot back up the claim of the amp being a custom-built Fender.

He revealed that he doesn't have the sales receipt only after being questioned about it in the Q&A's. What does '100% original' mean to you?? Also, he curiously does NOT answer a query about the tube chart. And, at least a couple specific queries submitted by TDPRIers have not shown up in his auction, or [obviously] have been answered. Finally, he calls it a Woody about nine different places in the listing ... OK I'll give the guy a pass on using that word in the listing title, as there is a wood finish cabinet. But, again, the Q&A area is where he admits this is NOT a woody. This does not meet my standard of 'not hiding anything'.

Originally Posted by Wally

When indisputable proof that something is not just irregular but not authentic is presented, then I will accept it. Until then, the thing in question is just an oddity....and definitely not worth ten times what it should be as a non-original until proof of rarity and originality is given. Also, until proof of fraud is established, I am not in the habit of claiming such has occurred.

Again, this is backwards thinking... As a potential buyer [& I'm not], I am not obligated to show proof it is not legit. I can use my knowledge, and observation of other factors, and draw a conclusion, i.e., an opinion, of my own. Then, I can bid, or not. The seller must substantiate his claim of authenticity.

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by beach bob

That doesn't exactly excuse him for putting up what is (IMO) a bogus eBay listing.



Hm, yes. He might 'settle' for a third or less of his BIN; say $8k. And go crying straight to the bank ... having ripped off someone for $6k over what the thing is worth.



Erm, to use your terminology, you cannot KNOW this. Note Guitarslinger1's story about the REFIN stamp on the '57 strat... Sure there's lots of pics, but you cannot say for sure that everything has been revealed.



Um, not the way I see it. In the Q&A section, He states that he cannot guarantee that she will find the receipt. Not the same thing. In several other places in the listing, he guarantees it to be 100% original.



He revealed that he doesn't have the sales receipt only after being questioned about it in the Q&A's. What does '100% original' mean to you?? Also, he curiously does NOT answer a query about the tube chart. And, at least a couple specific queries submitted by TDPRIers have not shown up in his auction, or [obviously] have been answered. Finally, he calls it a Woody about nine different places in the listing ... OK I'll give the guy a pass on using that word in the listing title, as there is a wood finish cabinet. But, again, the Q&A area is where he admits this is NOT a woody. This does not meet my standard of 'not hiding anything'.



Again, this is backwards thinking... As a potential buyer [& I'm not], I am not obligated to show proof it is not legit. I can use my knowledge, and observation of other factors, and draw a conclusion, i.e., an opinion, of my own. Then, I can bid, or not. The seller must substantiate his claim of authenticity.

100% Correct on all points Beach Bob

[59TweedVibrolux]

Posting Full Disclosure photos is great, I applaud the seller for this. But I have
seen listings from this seller in the past that were also dodgy with regard to
exact description of the item. One case was a '64 Deluxe Reverb. Described
as Original......he used the word Original about 6 tomes in the first dozen
lines of the description. A question was asked about the dubious Dates of
the Transformers and a Spliced Mains Transformer Wire. He answered back
very sarcastically making almost a joke of it. Calling it " Electronic Diversity"
"what makes life so interesting" ????? Say what !!! Very flippant from a
seller asking you to trust him and his description. Excuse me but that
" Electronic Diversity" has a BIG impact on the Value of the amp and also on
the Originality of the amp. Not to mentioned selling someone a Lemon

Please feel free to view. www.ebay.com Item # 220219608494

Click on View all 16 Questions.

This seller seems to make Bold Statements about all his items. Unfortunately
he is the only one laughing (to the bank) .

Its great to have found this Forum, to be able to post concerns / questions
and get opinions and feedback. My main point was to highlight the fact that
today with the ever increasing prices of Vintage Gear, Faking and the
Misrepresentation of items is happening more an more. Most people would
love to own a Vintage Guitar / Amp, a piece of history so to speak. They
don't however always have a depth of knowledge to pick whats Real from
Whats Not. They rely on study, friends, associates, and trust of sellers
and musical retailers to " do " the right thing. We are talking about a lot
of money. Last thing you want is to be stuck with a Lemon.

Vintage Gear Hollywood can make all the claims they want, thats not the
problem. But if you make such Bold and Positive claims about an instrument,
comments that DO give the impression to the buying public that you know
what you are saying to be true. Then the very least you MUST DO is
provide irrefutable Proof to the potential buyers to back up your
claims.

This has not been done. I have asked 3 Times, questions about what we
have raised on the Forum. He answered me the first time, not posting my
question on the listing. His reply was simply...." yes, beautiful isn't it"
The follow up questions from me, again weren't posted on the listing, his
reply to those ??........ No Reply

[59TweedVibrolux]

I emailed John Sprung with the listing # asking if he could have a look and
let me know his opinion. Just got his reply...........

Reply from John Sprung 7 / 4 / 2008.... " Looks Completely Bogus To Me "

[beach bob]

59Tweed, verrrry interesting, that guy's auction w/ the " '64" Deluxe... at least he answered some challenging questions in that one & very poorly, too

And the guy claims he's in the PR biz? Yah, I know a guy in the PR biz too; his face is in his full sized used car ad every Saturday in the classified section of the paper ... there is a difference between PR, and 'hype'.

I admit I haven't watched 100's of vintage amp Ebay auctions ... does hype beget hype? This seller seems to attract a heck of a lot of people blowing smoke up his nether regions in the Q&A area ...

Anyways, 59, thanks for the affirmation. Beer's on me today, I'm firing up the grill and making ribs. Keep the little ones away from the boom booms, eh?

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by beach bob

59Tweed, verrrry interesting, that guy's auction w/ the " '64" Deluxe... at least he answered some challenging questions in that one & very poorly, too

And the guy claims he's in the PR biz? Yah, I know a guy in the PR biz too; his face is in his full sized used car ad every Saturday in the classified section of the paper ... there is a difference between PR, and 'hype'.

I admit I haven't watched 100's of vintage amp Ebay auctions ... does hype beget hype? This seller seems to attract a heck of a lot of people blowing smoke up his nether regions in the Q&A area ...

Anyways, 59, thanks for the affirmation. Beer's on me today, I'm firing up the grill and making ribs. Keep the little ones away from the boom booms, eh?

Cheers Beach Bob. Have a great 4th of July.

He definitely gets off on all those people (as we say) licking his nether
region. Seems to like that Self Promotion. When you have a number of REAL
Authorities such as John Sprung, Gerald Weber coming out with the identical
responses....Bogus then you have to really doubt it.

Obviously the name of the game is........Have a Ridiculous BUY NOW price.
Hoping someone will offer $15,000 (say) , he makes a killing, they think they
scored a real deal......in other words Fishing. Definitely Used Car
tactics. A reputable Vintage Dealer would never make those claims without
hard evidence. I liked that comment.......Electronic Diversity......to describe
a Vintage Amp that has a lot of issues with possible replaced key parts.
That shows the contempt he has for people he sells to. I think he has a case
of..... Integrity Diversity. Have a Bonza Barbie, chuck on a few snags
and steaks for us, crack open and sink a few Tinnies !!! (Beers)

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by 59TweedVibrolux

Posting Full Disclosure photos is great, I applaud the seller for this. But I have
seen listings from this seller in the past that were also dodgy with regard to
exact description of the item. One case was a '64 Deluxe Reverb. Described
as Original......he used the word Original about 6 tomes in the first dozen
lines of the description. A question was asked about the dubious Dates of
the Transformers and a Spliced Mains Transformer Wire. He answered back
very sarcastically making almost a joke of it. Calling it " Electronic Diversity"
"what makes life so interesting" ????? Say what !!! Very flippant from a
seller asking you to trust him and his description. Excuse me but that
" Electronic Diversity" has a BIG impact on the Value of the amp and also on
the Originality of the amp. Not to mentioned selling someone a Lemon

Please feel free to view. www.ebay.com Item # 220219608494

Click on View all 16 Questions.

This seller seems to make Bold Statements about all his items. Unfortunately
he is the only one laughing (to the bank) .

Its great to have found this Forum, to be able to post concerns / questions
and get opinions and feedback. My main point was to highlight the fact that
today with the ever increasing prices of Vintage Gear, Faking and the
Misrepresentation of items is happening more an more. Most people would
love to own a Vintage Guitar / Amp, a piece of history so to speak. They
don't however always have a depth of knowledge to pick whats Real from
Whats Not. They rely on study, friends, associates, and trust of sellers
and musical retailers to " do " the right thing. We are talking about a lot
of money. Last thing you want is to be stuck with a Lemon.

Vintage Gear Hollywood can make all the claims they want, thats not the
problem. But if you make such Bold and Positive claims about an instrument,
comments that DO give the impression to the buying public that you know
what you are saying to be true. Then the very least you MUST DO is
provide irrefutable Proof to the potential buyers to back up your
claims.

This has not been done. I have asked 3 Times, questions about what we
have raised on the Forum. He answered me the first time, not posting my
question on the listing. His reply was simply...." yes, beautiful isn't it"
The follow up questions from me, again weren't posted on the listing, his
reply to those ??........ No Reply

Wow, I read the Q&A on that auction. That seller is a genuine tool. Yeah I said it.

I can't believe that DR sold for so much with replacement transformers.

But I see what's happening. There's an old saying, that dates back to some people I won't mention, that goes something like "if a lie is repeated enough times, it becomes the truth". He states that it is "all original" over and over, yet the photos clearly show otherwise, then belittles and puts down anyone who points this out, and has all these bogus responses from friends or whoever heaping praise on him and his item for sale. It kind of reminds me of FOX News these days, to be honest. Similar tactics to "steer" the perception of reality.

[Neer]

This seller is true jerk--I remember I had an experience with him over a Standel cabinet that I won a few years ago. The shipping was exhorbitant and I asked him if there was anything we could do to lower it. His response was: "You know what, let's just cancel the whole deal". Which is what happened. I was extremely pissed. Yes, he is a tool, but now I know he's more than that.

[Guitarslinger1]

And now we have the opinion of a supposed expert. This is all just more smoke...

Q: I just wanted to add my two cents... I had an opportunity to buy this from the original owner, but backed out due to poor timing only... :( This amp is as original as it's gonna get... i've owned more than a few hundred amps, and i know some folks are looking at this complete oddity of an amp and just not believing... BUT, this amp is like finding a living friggin dinosaur... it aint gonna happen again anytime soon.... FENDER... GET THIS IN YOUR MUSEUM! later, Mike Jul-03-08
A: Thanks, we examined this amp from top to bottom, we spoke to and purchased from the original owners, they are looking for the original receipt, it's obvious when you're in the same room with the owners and have the opportunity to do the forensics that the amp was indeed made by Fender, this is truly a one of a kind rare and beautiful original piece, it is the most important find in the vintage amp community and will be for many many years to come, thanks, VG Hollywood

and LOL @ his "forensics"!

[Mike Simpson]

This looks to me like someone made a fancy wood cabinet for a Pro. To me this does not look like a factory custom. One of the things that just looks wrong is all the speaker screws and baffle screws screwed in from the front. That looks like something a woodworker hobbyist might do. On a Pro or a Woodie the speaker screws are not shown on the front. If Fender had built this they would have put in speaker studs in the baffle board and covered the heads with tolex as well as the corner screws would have come from the back so none of the screw heads would show on the front. I doubt that Fender would have used tolex as well... why build a cabinet like that out of birdseye / quilted maple and not make the front of the baffle board the same wood or cover it with cloth. Also interesting is the use of plain clear maple for the bottom of the cabinet.

I have a 49 TV front Pro and a 52 Wide panel Pro... I am just some maple and tolex away from $28k...

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

This looks to me like someone made a fancy wood cabinet for a Pro. To me this does not look like a factory custom. One of the things that just looks wrong is all the speaker screws and baffle screws screwed in from the front. That looks like something a woodworker hobbyist might do. On a Pro or a Woodie the speaker screws are not shown on the front. If Fender had built this they would have put in speaker studs in the baffle board and covered the heads with tolex as well as the corner screws would have come from the back so none of the screw heads would show on the front. I doubt that Fender would have used tolex as well... why build a cabinet like that out of birdseye / quilted maple and not make the front of the baffle board the same wood or cover it with cloth. Also interesting is the use of plain clear maple for the bottom of the cabinet.

I have a 49 TV front Pro and a 52 Wide panel Pro... I am just some maple and tolex away from $28k...

LOL Also I never knew Fender
used ..... Pinking Shears ? to cut its Tolex.

[Mike Simpson]

Ya... wouldn't want that tolex to unravel... and while they were at it they used tacks to attach the grill cloth and tolex... not staples or glue...