1949 Fender Pro- $28500.00 on E-Bay

[59TweedVibrolux]

I offered him $ 2 and he knocked it back ??

Should I have offered $ 3 ???

Auction Ended..... No Sale

[Wally]

Originally Posted by 59TweedVibrolux

I offered him $ 2 and he knocked it back ??

Should I have offered $ 3 ???

Auction Ended..... No Sale

Now, if we could get him to divide his BIN by 10, get you to multiply your offer by something between 350 and 500, and get the two of you face to face with the amp; perhaps we could find out if he wants to sell the amp for what he can prove and/or you want to buy it for what it is without provenance of any claims. It would certainly be an interesting discussion to watch at any rate.

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by Wally

Now, if we could get him to divide his BIN by 10, get you to multiply your offer by something between 350 and 500, and get the two of you face to face with the amp; perhaps we could find out if he wants to sell the amp for what he can prove and/or you want to buy it for what it is without provenance of any claims. It would certainly be an interesting discussion to watch at any rate.

He never replied to defend the authenticity of the amp. No doubt
he will eventually find a purchaser through his shop, shame. I've lost count
of the bogus listings (Guitars / Amps / Pedals) that sellers list on ebay.

If you're going to claim an Historic or Celebrity connection, you must provide
the evidence in the listing to confirm what you are stating to be the Truth.

I'd be wary of any of this guys listings. He ripped me off on Shipping
for 2 pedals after I trusted them, even paid his paypal fee for him
When I sent them the photo's of the packages with the correct postage,
they wouldn't refund me the balance....... Live and Learn.

[AMP-MAN]

Hey guys,
I too was skeptical about the amp, as it appears to be "too good to be true," but since I live in the neighborhood, I decided to go take an in person look for myself.
I have owned lots of tweed Fenders, and felt that from the photos the custom woody didn't conform with other amps of that year, however, after seeing it with my own eyes, I can say with confidence that I believe the amp to be completely original.
-The cabinet construction is just like my 1947 model 24. The joints are identical, and the handle is THE EXACT SIZE with the EXACT screw spacing! (I measured mine before I looked at it, and Chris at Vintage Gear let me take measurements of the one they have on eBay.)
-The front is NOT tolex! I was surprised to see that what appears to be tolex on the front baffle is actually a cloth material like that on a 1940's Gibson case. In which case, it makes it completely feasible and likely they would have used this material.
-The wood and finish are obviously era appropriate and the ghost mark of the top wood panel and the impression it left on the MINT Pro chassis is undeniable!
-The feet are Fender feet, and all of the screws are Fender screws.
I made the guys a fairly substantial cash offer because I want it for my collection, but they said they were going to relist it.

It is a really amazing amp in person,
THE AMP-MAN

Originally Posted by 59TweedVibrolux

Ebay has changed the format of reporting Fake or Questionable listings.

You can now only enter the listing / Item Number, with no facility (as in the
past) to actually explain WHY you are reporting the item. In the past you
could actually type an explanation with the Item Number and send to them.
Now you must click on reason for reporting item, such as "Misleading
Description", Type in the Item Number, and send. If you try to type a reason
in the same box as the Item Number it won't permit you to send.

I reported (Item # ) to ebay, but could not explain why. They would have
simply read the description, asked the seller, looked at his feedback and
accepted his explanation. Because nothing has happened so far.

Ludicrous situation. In the past I have seen people steal photo's of a '59
Tweed Deluxe, post a fake listing. Having recognized the photos from the
Original Listing I was able to report it and explain why, Ebay immediately
pulled the Auction, avoiding an unsuspecting buyer from losing $3 - 4,000
as the bogus seller required payment via Money Order only. This happened
a couple of times. Then you could also contact the High Bidder direct and
make them aware of the situation. Now all bidders are Anon.


This is a substantial amount of money. The seller should provide evidence
to back up his claims regarding the unique nature of this particular amp.
Its called Provenance. The seller is making very bold claims about
this amp without so much as one shred of physical proof. Purely the word
of the orig owners widow as to how they obtained the amp. If you took this
amp to George Gruhn or Norm Harris and gave them this story, they would
require proof positive before offering it for sale as the " Missing Link" at
$28,500. Otherwise anyone could claim anything about the history of their
Old Guitar / Amp . In this case the Seller should be saying, " this is what
the owners widow has told me, I cannot confirm or deny these claims. I
believe this to be a missing link amp, but I make no guarantees in that regard.
Buyers must make up their own mind as to the authenticity of the claims."
This guy is saying....This IS the Most Valuable Fender Amp Ever ! The TRUE
Missing Link etc etc etc. If proved not to be true, a Seller down here is
liable in Court to be sued for False & Misleading Advertising. He needs to
have proof beyond doubt as to the authenticity before making such bold
claims to possible buyers.

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by AMP-MAN

Hey guys,
I too was skeptical about the amp, as it appears to be "too good to be true," but since I live in the neighborhood, I decided to go take an in person look for myself.
I have owned lots of tweed Fenders, and felt that from the photos the custom woody didn't conform with other amps of that year, however, after seeing it with my own eyes, I can say with confidence that I believe the amp to be completely original.
-The cabinet construction is just like my 1947 model 24. The joints are identical, and the handle is THE EXACT SIZE with the EXACT screw spacing! (I measured mine before I looked at it, and Chris at Vintage Gear let me take measurements of the one they have on eBay.)
-The front is NOT tolex! I was surprised to see that what appears to be tolex on the front baffle is actually a cloth material like that on a 1940's Gibson case. In which case, it makes it completely feasible and likely they would have used this material.
-The wood and finish are obviously era appropriate and the ghost mark of the top wood panel and the impression it left on the MINT Pro chassis is undeniable!
-The feet are Fender feet, and all of the screws are Fender screws.
I made the guys a fairly substantial cash offer because I want it for my collection, but they said they were going to relist it.

It is a really amazing amp in person,
THE AMP-MAN

1. Please post photos of your 1947 model 24 showing the cabinet construction.

2. Did the amp in question have a tube chart glued inside the cabinet?

[59TweedVibrolux]

This Guy has re-listed and miraculously now has a current bid of
$4500........ Never replied to answer ANY of my queries about the
Authenticity of the amp.....that says enough for me.

If some Fool is prepared to pay this kind of Cash for an amp where the ONLY
form of Authenticity it is this guys say so, or some widow who has only a
receipt of sale, which she can't find. Good Luck.

This guy really believes there is a Sucker Born Every Minute

No Tube Chart
No Fender Badge at all
When did Fender start using Upholstery Tacks to attach covering to a cab
or Baffle ??

This things been knocked up most likely by a Furniture Maker or Custom
Cabinet Maker. Not by Fender Electric Instrument Mfg. Co

[teleon]

A twenty four thousand dollar price drop, what a deal! (whith no mention as to why).

[sjhusting]

Thanks, Amp-Man! I feel reassured now.

You know what they say, just because something looks like a hoax, sounds like a hoax, feels like a hoax, and smells like a hoax, doesn't mean it's a hoax.

Are you sure your moniker shouldn't be 'Piltdown man?'

steven

[Boogie]

27 bids in less than 3 days, 7 days before end of auction. Does this smell like shill bidding to anyone?

[fungusyoung]

Originally Posted by Boogie

27 bids in less than 3 days, 7 days before end of auction. Does this smell like shill bidding to anyone?

Since the bidding got the least bit serious, looks like there's only 2 guys going back & forth.

Authentic or not (I'm hardly one to know), this has to be one of the shoddiest listings I've ever seen for such an unusual/rare and supposedly valuable item. The photos are great and all, but the seller's insistence on it being 100% original & all the other unsubstantiated claims (i.e. last Woody ever made) would make me run for the exits.

I don't care what the current bid is, I'd be shocked if this thing actually leaves his shop anytime soon for crazy $ unless he's got a lot more proof of authenticity than what is included in the item description.

[Boogie]

Originally Posted by fungusyoung

Since the bidding got the least bit serious, looks like there's only 2 guys going back & forth.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that smart, serious bidders would wait until the final moments of the auction instead of running the price way up early and showing their cards to other prospective buyers.

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by sjhusting

Thanks, Amp-Man! I feel reassured now.

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by Boogie

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that smart, serious bidders would wait until the final moments of the auction instead of running the price way up early and showing their cards to other prospective buyers.

It's totally bogus. I've seen this before, and probably from this seller. List the thing at an outrageous price that nobody goes for. Then relist it, probably with some shill bidders, and hopefully bid it up so that some sucker bids for it, thinking he's getting a good deal, as the price is lower the the first auction's price.

It's pure BS, and hope no non-shill bidders fall for it.

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by Boogie

27 bids in less than 3 days, 7 days before end of auction. Does this smell like shill bidding to anyone?

Totally......down here its called Dummy Bidding, particularly with Real
Estate Auctions. Friends / Relatives of the seller bid up to a certain price
hoping this will SUCKER IN a Genuine buyer to bid at a price the seller is
happy to accept......hoping to have a couple of Genuine Bidders fight for
it pushing the price to a crazy level at which it Sells

The Gov't has outlawed this practice now

This Smells of It.....why would you get into a Bidding War this early
on. Everyone waits till the final 30 or so seconds. Guess its to show people
Hey....... this must be on the up if others are prepared to bid to $5000
already .....

[Wally]

ON it goes....
Thanks for looking first-hand, Amp Man. And...welcome to the TDPRI.
I talked to my contact with the seller who coincidentally had consulted with the seller about the amp. The seller has over 30 years of vintage experience. He also has Woodies sitting on the floor with which to compare. My contact said the seller has compared joints and other construction techniques and fully believes the amp to be original and the story to be true. AmpMan's story seems to support this. From what I have seen from ;;these photos and photos of 'real' Woodies, I think the only thing about the construction that is not typical of a Woody' amp would be the baffleboard and the chassis...and the claims are that the chsassis is a '49-50 Pro and not a 'woody pro'. I woudl like to see some pics myself....as I noted earlier in this thread. Noone seems to have one of these amps from which to get soem good pics of the construction details. I agree that there is little else to confirm the claims. I still hold that without that incontravertible truth, the amp is a very interesting amp and not that 'sky's the limit' unique custom piece with the $28,500 price the first auction set. I also think that the only folks who really have a monetary interest in this amp...meaning the prospective buyer's....have probably done the homework. AS we all know, the pictures are there if one wants to address questions in a serious forum....meaning with money on the table.
The bidding in the latest listing may prove that their are those who believe fully that it is what the claims say it is. IT will be interesting.

Boogie wrote...."I could be wrong, but it seems to me that smart, serious bidders would wait until the final moments of the auction instead of running the price way up early and showing their cards to other prospective buyers."

I know that this is conventional wisdom, but sometimes bidding takes a different path. The bids on the last amp I auctioned off on ebay rose more quickly than I thought was 'normal'. The bidding then slowed down for a day or two and took off on the last day to reach a price that was more than I thought it would bring. You can't always tell what is going to go on with some bidders.

AS I said earlier in this thread, there is no proof one way of the other...just an intersting story and a claim to go with it....and enough questions for one to doubt the story and the claim. In the end, only the buyer and seller have any real investment into both of those aspects...the story and the claim.

[59TweedVibrolux]

If this seller has 30 yrs experience and has Woody's sitting on his floor
from which to compare joints, handle etc......well he must be BLIND.

This is a REAL WOODY (Pics) below.

1. The Handle (Grip) is straight cut. Look at the one for sale, Rounded Edge in
the cut out Grip Section.

2. Real Woody....Look at ALL the Metal Bracket supports. One for Sale....
2 x Wood Wedges ? so Fender did this (wood wedges) on this cab only
and NONE before or AFTER ?? So Vintage Gear Hollywoods Woody's that
are sitting on their Floor ALL HAVE WOODEN WEDGE SUPPORTS !!!

3. Real Woody....Staples holding the Grill cloth to the Baffle, as per EVERY
Fender ever made. One for Sale....Glue & Upholstery Tacks.

4. Real Woody....Grill Cloth Straight Cut. One for Sale....Cut with Pinking
Shears.

Vintage Gear Hollywood refused to answer any of my questions casting
doubt over the amp in the last Auction, only posting positive comments.

He stated the cab did have a Tube chart...yet won't show it

*** This Auction......can you believe this Guy, according to the
question asked......this Seller would have us believe they bought the
amp and haven't even TESTED IT yet . His answer to a potential buyer
" when we receive your payment, you are free to Test it out, if that's
important to you Say What....$5000 plus
amp and they won't test it because.... " we do not want to compromise
its Electronic Originality So we are to believe that a Dealer
with 30 yrs exp buys an amp of this value and pays for it without
even testing whether it works !!!

Same as last Auction...."when we receive your payment you can contact
the previous owner to get the story of the amp". Everything seems to
revolve around them getting your payment first with this Dealer.

You've Got To Be Kidding

Gerald Weber has over 30 yrs working on Vintage Fenders and owns Orig
Woody's

John Sprung ...Author of Fender Amps.....The First 50 Yrs and a
consultant for Tom Wheelers.....The Soul Of Tone....60 yrs of Fender Amps

Both when shown this amp stated emphatically....It Is Bogus.

I tend to believe these gentlemen

[Wally]

59tweedvibrolux, thanks for the pics. IF those interior braces are stock on the dark woody, then the construction details are certainly different from the pics that are shown in the ebay offering. I saw the upholstery tacks...in fact, I was the first in this thread to note that difference from anything that I had seen from FEnder. The pinking shears are strange for a FEnder, ime. I don't see enough difference in the handles to warrant much suspicion on that point. YMMV, I am sure.
As for the 'Both when shown this amp stated emphatically....It Is Bogus."...I will note this. IN his email to me after viewing the auction, Mr. Sprung was less than 100% emphatical in his assessment. Below find John Sprung's reply to my query...which follows below his reply.


"THAT’S ABOUT THE MOST BOGUS THING I HAVE EVER SEEN. BUT WHAT DO I KNOW.

Parts is Parts
PO Box 208
East Dover Vermont, 05341
800-590-0014
802-365-7257

------------

From: The Guitar Garage [mailto:theguitargarage@nts-online.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 5:05 PM
To: info@guitar-parts.com
Subject: Attn: JOhn Sprung



HEllo, JOhn,

My name is Wally Sanders. I have enjoyed your 'Fender Amp' book for years and found it helpful in getting to know old Fender amps. There is an amp on ebay right now that is very interesting. John Nelson, whom you might know, out in Hollywood has a truly rare amp up for auction. This thread on TDPRI willlink you to it.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-centr...-00-e-bay.html

You may already be aware of this amp/auction. AS you might expect, there is a great deal of 'net talk about this one. IT is a beauty of an amp. THe cab looks to be old to my eye. there are enough questions to fill a guitar case about 'originality', though; and as I see it, there is not much of a way to authenticate this one.

I know that you have much experience with these old amps. Do the construction techniques rule out the possibility of this being a custom-built Fender cab? The upholstery tacks bother me, and I have no knowledge of the joinery techniques that Fender used on 'woody' cabs.

If you find the time to shoot me a quick thought or two on this amp, I would appreciate it.

Wally Sanders"

The 'but what do I know' is less than emphatic. It leaves, to my mind, the judgement open.
As I have said before, this issue on this amp is a no brainer for me. I can't and don't need to prove things one way or the other. I don't actually think anyone in this thread can. I don't think this thread has mcuh bearing on what is going to happen with the amp. Those bidders can see the amp, and they obviously are grown people who can make their own decisions. Nothing in this thread is proof one way or the other. There are differences from a production Woody amp, but then the claimi is that the amp is a one-off custom. Hard to prove, hard to refute. It is an old cab. The only hands-on evidence we have is from new member AmpMan who claims to own a Woody 24 which matches this custom cab in measurements and construction techniques. IF so, then his amp differs from these pics of the dark Woody that are offered here, right? Concerning the amp in these pics that you(59TV) provided, I would guess that this amp has been refinished. The finish looks much too fresh for a 60 year old amp. I have never seen a Fender amp with metal bracing, so that is strange to my eye. However, as I have noted, I haven't seen an original, unmolested Woody in person.
So, the auction goes on. Someone will buy this amp. We will likely never again see it. Maybe the receipt will materialize....maybe not.
59TWeed Vibrolux will never resolve his issues with the owner of Vintage GEar of Hollywood over those shipping charges.
And...the world keeps spinning 'round....
Have a good one.

[Mik]

I don't see anything here but a seller with a significant ebay history trying to make a market for an auction item. Big deal. He presented the item in many detailed photos and told you a story about it. Within those parameters you figure what it's worth to you and bid accordingly, or not bid at all.

It appears to me to be an authentic early Pro in a non-Fender production cabinet of questionable origin. Right now that's worth 5Gs after 27 bids.

Next.

Mik

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Mik

I don't see anything here but a seller with a significant ebay history trying to make a market for an auction item. Big deal. He presented the item in many detailed photos and told you a story about it. Within those parameters you figure what it's worth to you and bid accordingly, or not bid at all.

It appears to me to be an authentic early Pro in a non-Fender production cabinet of questionable origin. Right now that's worth 5Gs after 27 bids.

Next.

Mik

+1

[59TweedVibrolux]

The whole basis of my argument is the claims made about an item for sale,
without so much as a shred of evidence to prove those claims. The seller has
never seen such an amp so what does he base his forthright opinion of its
authenticity on? His whole approach and wording is from a standpoint that it
is indeed some Missing Link of Historical Importance. He was asked a number
of questions to clarify his comments, yet refused to post those on the listing
or to answer me privately. I have no issue with the overcharging and refusal
to refund shipping costs. I do however with people misrepresenting items.
Not that this is the case here. But with out any shred of evidence to
prove it is what he claims, then making such unsubstantiated claims is
wrong and misleading. Potential buyers also never having so much as heard of
such an amps existence prior to this, have no way of proving the claims
made by the seller. Simply a statement that when you have paid, you can
talk to the original owners wife.

Its easy to manipulate an auction to give an impression of something being
genuine. All you need do is have some friends / associates bid the item up
in the initial stages of the auction, giving an impression that these buyers
must know something. Then an unsuspecting buyer is enticed to bid over
the current high bidder, an amount that is both genuine and at a figure the
seller is happy to accept. His friends having already run it up to that amount.
Certainly not implying that has occurred here, but just pointing out that
these things can be done to achieve the desired result.

O.K, If AMP MAN has a Woody that looks very close to this,
and Vintage Gear, Hollywood have, as claimed, a number of Woody's on
their floor. Please post photographs of these Amps / Cabs to show us that
Fender did indeed use Wooden Wedges and not Steel Brackets. And that
their amps/cabs do indeed closely resemble this Missing Link Amp in the
Cabs style of construction. Fender Woody's only ever came in Mahogany
and plain Maple. ALL had Red, Blue or Gold Grill Cloth with Metal Strips x 3
over the grill. If either Amp Man or VGH have Woody's that look different
to the Originals as we know them, then please show us.

Leo's wife might have owned some Pinking shears, but I'm sure Leo never
borrowed them to cut some amp cloth down at the factory.

Bottom line, without any concrete proof, no claims can be made about this
amp whatsoever. If its so Historically Important, wouldn't you offer it to
Fender for their Collection ?? And being such a find, of Historical Importance
wouldn't you alert all Major Guitar Magazines of its existence ? the seller
is presently writing articles on Vintage amps in V.G. I'm sure they would
want to feature such an Historical Find such as this. This also maximizes
exposure for the amp, if you are indeed trying to make a market for it.
And would ensure a substantial sale price !!!.....well you would.....unless
Hmmmmmm

But as you say.....some one will Buy It....and the Amp

[Wally]

Page 42 of "Fender Amps" by Sprung and TEagle...
"The cabinets were tastefully constructed from a choice of hardwoods (maple,walnut, and mahogany)..." So, I guess you and I don't know everything there is to know about Woody amps, right? I can only rely on what I read and see. As for the grille and cloth.....it is claimed that this is a CUSTOM oredered amp. IT would not conform to the old Woody specs necessarily...the grille could be part of the 'custom'......
or as you seem to know, the claims could be misleading...but the cloth does not make the argument for the inaccuracy of the claims.

How are you privy to the identity of the bidders? 59TV wrote: " His friends having already run it up to that amount." Strong words without proof. I don't know who has bid on it. I don't even care. Hypothetical assasination of character????

I would like to see pics of AmpMan's Woody, also. I requested pics from anyone who had one many posts ago. Since AmpMan is new to the TDPRI, it would be especially interesting, woudln't it?

Bottom line, anyone can makes whatever claims they care to make. You and the seller are both making claims that so far neither can substantiate, imo. It is going to take someone with the expertise to examine that amp in person to make any judgement that I would accept as final. The seller claims to have the expertise and the side-by-side comparison to Woody's with which to make those judgements. I don't know....and once again don't care. I can't say the seller's claims are factual, and I can't say that any claims to the contrary are factual. Too many variables. I do know that the seller has used considerable vintage knowledge when buying from me.

Fender Collection? If I owned that amp and had the receipt that proved originality, it would go to the highest bidder. Fender could get their money up like anyone else. AS it is, I have stated that I consider it to be a really nice looking player's amp. The $5K bid kills it for me. Without provenance, it is worth less than that imo. I am not saying that I think it is a 'fake'. I just don't know what it is at the moment. That is all the judging I can do on the subject.

Your point about magazine exposure is well made, and I agree. Usually, an amp like this whether genuine or not would gather much attention in mags. I have seen in person one historically important Fender amp that was written up in VG a few months after I saw it in my shop and we worked on it. IT was sold by a local person, and the new owner had the contacts to get it in the mag.

Pinking shears....for all we know and if the amp was a Fender CUSTOM order....maybe one of the ladies who worked in the Fender factory used her personal shears???(:^) Once again, I don't know. It is one of those questions that I have about the amp, too. If the amp truly is a custom order as claimed, much about the construction could be out of the ordinary for Fender....that is what 'custom' means. As far as that goes, if the amp truly was custom ordered, I could see that Leo Fender and Co. might have farmed the entire job out and put the chassis and speaker into the cab after the cab was built outside of Fender's factory. Who knows? Maybe baffleboard/grille could be outside work for a custom order? Just like J. Sprung wrote to me ...'but what do I know?" After all, we weren't there, were we?

In closing, I find it interesting that the seller seems to be willing to stand behind his claims, doesn't he?
"THIS AMP IS GUARANTEED to be 100% ALL ORIGINAL and AS DESCRIBED or YOUR MONEY BACK!!!"

OF course, it is easier to spend money than it is to get it back, sometimes, as we all know.

59TWeedVibrolux, I understand your concerns about this amp. IF I had the bucks to waste, I would buy the darned thing just to look it over. If I decided it was a fake, I would address that issue and try to enforce the money back guarnatee.
Got bucks? (Hehehehe....now don't go thinking that the seller has enlisted me to try to get you to bid! hehehe I wouldn't do that to you, 59.)
Sometimes rarity happens....one-offs, oddities,repairs. IF this amp proves to be the real deal, someone may get a bargain. If it proves to be not a Fender-built , custom-ordered cab...someone may have to try to enforce the guarantee of satisfaction.

[Boogie]

Originally Posted by Wally

It is going to take someone with the expertise to examine that amp in person to make any judgement that I would accept as final.

I think the amp has been photographed well enough that someone with the expertise can make an assessment based on the pictures. That's been done by two of the foremost experts of vintage amps. I accept that as final.

The $5K bid kills it for me. Without provenance, it is worth less than that imo.

Then why do you continue to argue when what you say is in agreement with most of the opinions in the thread, since you don't "have a dog in the hunt" as you say?

Just like J. Sprung wrote to me ...'but what do I know?" After all, we weren't there, were we?

I can't speak for Mr. Sprung, but what that sounds like to me is he's saying with some sarcasm "what do I know, I'm only one of the world's foremost experts on the subject." That's how I interpret it. He also said "THAT’S ABOUT THE MOST BOGUS THING I HAVE EVER SEEN" I personally don't need any more convincing.

In closing, I find it interesting that the seller seems to be willing to stand behind his claims, doesn't he?
"THIS AMP IS GUARANTEED to be 100% ALL ORIGINAL and AS DESCRIBED or YOUR MONEY BACK!!!"

That's a very flimsy guarantee. Before money is changed hands, the burden of proof is on him to prove that the amp is indeed 100% original. He has yet to do that. After the money has changed hands, when the buyer determines that he's been had, the burden of proof is now on the poor sap to prove to eBay that the amp is NOT original. It's awfully hard to prove a negative, isn't it? Especially to people who are not in the business of evaluating rare historic items.

I hope my gut feeling is correct that some serious shill bidding has taken place and that some poor sucker does not get taken. Then again, if someone with too much money on their hands is foolish enough to fall for something like this then maybe they'll get what they deserve. That doesn't make what the seller is doing right though, does it? But what do I know?

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by Boogie

I think the amp has been photographed well enough that someone with the expertise can make an assessment based on the pictures. That's been done by two of the foremost experts of vintage amps. I accept that as final.



Then why do you continue to argue when what you say is in agreement with most of the opinions in the thread, since you don't "have a dog in the hunt" as you say?



I can't speak for Mr. Sprung, but what that sounds like to me is he's saying with some sarcasm "what do I know, I'm only one of the world's foremost experts on the subject." That's how I interpret it. He also said "THAT’S ABOUT THE MOST BOGUS THING I HAVE EVER SEEN" I personally don't need any more convincing.



That's a very flimsy guarantee. Before money is changed hands, the burden of proof is on him to prove that the amp is indeed 100% original. He has yet to do that. After the money has changed hands, when the buyer determines that he's been had, the burden of proof is now on the poor sap to prove to eBay that the amp is NOT original. It's awfully hard to prove a negative, isn't it? Especially to people who are not in the business of evaluating rare historic items.

I hope my gut feeling is correct that some serious shill bidding has taken place and that some poor sucker does not get taken. Then again, if someone with too much money on their hands is foolish enough to fall for something like this then maybe they'll get what they deserve. That doesn't make what the seller is doing right though, does it? But what do I know?

100% Correct.......once you pays your money and receive this amp you
have absolutely no way to disprove his claims, should you wish to make a
claim through ebay. In other words its too late and you're stuck
waiting for the next Wood Duck to come along. His lack of response
to negative questions, the fact he requires payment first before you can
a) Speak to this Original Owners Wife & b) Be able to plug in and Test
if the amp works, together with NO evidence whatsoever to back up his
statements, all tells me its extremely suspect.

Again, why would you not Feature the Amp in Magazines if it is such a
Rare Find of Historical Importance ? Surely that would ensure a Big Return
when Sold !!! Unless you have doubts and wish to avoid bad publicity
for your business and ridicule of your expertise. Whereas on ebay you can
make such claims and all these early bidders remain anonymous

[Wally]

Boogie wrote: "Then why do you continue to argue when what you say is in agreement with most of the opinions in the thread, since you don't "have a dog in the hunt" as you say?"

Boogie, as far as I can tell, I haven't argued with anyone. I have stated that I have many of the same reservations about the amp as anyone in this thread. I have also posted why I have taken what is surely too much time to post on this subject.
We can think what we want about this amp. What we can't do is accurately
claim fraud on this.....no more than the seller can accurately claim that the amp is what he claims without some provenance. That is my only point.
I personally do not think that it is out of the realm of possibility that this amp was picked up by the original owner directly from LEo Fender after it was custom ordered. I am not accepting that that is the case, but I am not accepting that it is an impossibility. Some of us think this is a fraud. I think that I don't know one way or the other and and stated that I would not put more than 'player's amp money' into it.
Some of us don't care. Some of us care way too much, imo.

[59TweedVibrolux]

I think we've taken the thread as far as we can. We all have our opinions
and have argued them well. Whoever buys it will just have to make of it
what they will..... Hopefully it does work

[Wally]

Someone just posted this over on the WEber page....I have no idea where his info comes from. Interesting. The build of the cab o fthe ebay 'woody' certainly looks more suited to a true cabinet maker than do the interiors that were shown in this thread of the acknowledged real Fender Woody amp. No true cabinet maker would use those metal brackets/braces.
http://www.webervst.com/amps/messages/32556.html

I ain't arguin'...just sharing...

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by Wally

Someone just posted this over on the WEber page....I have no idea where his info comes from. Interesting. The build of the cab o fthe ebay 'woody' certainly looks more suited to a true cabinet maker than do the interiors that were shown in this thread of the acknowledged real Fender Woody amp. No true cabinet maker would use those metal brackets/braces.
http://www.webervst.com/amps/messages/32556.html

I ain't arguin'...just sharing...

Thanks Wally, that's very interesting. Wasn't me. But would explain the
change of Cab. The orig owner being skilled at cabinet making, no doubt
purchasing some nice Flamed Maple, As Leo sourced his bits from everyday
suppliers, those " Fender " Feet as someone described them would have been
freely available to buy back in the day. Same with the Screws, just ordinary
screws of the day, not custom made for Fender, I mean Leo even used
the timber from packing crates from suppliers for Amp Cabs....didn't want
to waste anything, so the screws etc would have been bought in from
everyday suppliers. Any handyman back then would have access to them.

If this is the case and the Seller, Vintage Gear Hollywood is aware of the
Real History, then that's very unfair and Fraudulent.

Would explain why the seller wouldn't want to feature the "Rarest Fender
Amp".... in any Guitar / Amp Mag

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by 59TweedVibrolux

Thanks Wally, that's very interesting. Wasn't me. But would explain the
change of Cab. The orig owner being skilled at cabinet making, no doubt
purchasing some nice Flamed Maple, As Leo sourced his bits from everyday
suppliers, those " Fender " Feet as someone described them would have been
freely available to buy back in the day. Same with the Screws, just ordinary
screws of the day, not custom made for Fender, I mean Leo even used
the timber from packing crates from suppliers for Amp Cabs....didn't want
to waste anything, so the screws etc would have been bought in from
everyday suppliers. Any handyman back then would have access to them.

If this is the case and the Seller, Vintage Gear Hollywood is aware of the
Real History, then that's very unfair and Fraudulent.

Would explain why the seller wouldn't want to feature the "Rarest Fender
Amp".... in any Guitar / Amp Mag

The feet and screws and such probably came off of the amp's original cabinet...

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by Guitarslinger1

The feet and screws and such probably came off of the amp's original cabinet...

True........ I agree, that's most likely what happened. Anyone skilled in
cabinet making would have no trouble knocking up a cab like that.

*** Just read the WeberVST Forum link that Wally provided.

THIS SAYS IT ALL. Extremely Disturbing if the comments are true.

Particularly regarding the Threatening the Widow of the Owner.
No wonder why he can't find the Orig sale receipt or will allow
anyone to speak with the owners widow till he has your money !!!

Ckick : http:www.webervst.com/amps/messages/32562.html

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by 59TweedVibrolux

True........ I agree, that's most likely what happened. Anyone skilled in
cabinet making would have no trouble knocking up a cab like that.

*** Just read the WeberVST Forum link that Wally provided.

THIS SAYS IT ALL. Extremely Disturbing if the comments are true.

Particularly regarding the Threatening the Widow of the Owner.
No wonder why he can't find the Orig sale receipt or will allow
anyone to speak with the owners widow till he has your money !!!

Ckick : http:www.webervst.com/amps/messages/32562.html

He just never ceases to amaze...

Q: Where is any verification about the age and origin of the cabinet? Is there any way to determine the true story about how this came about? It is really beautiful! Thank you, Rob Wink Jul-17-08

A: Yes we have had many experts confirm originality and will supply any further information we can get to the buyer, we believe the original owners and their account of how the amp came to be

[59TweedVibrolux]

Originally Posted by Guitarslinger1

He just never ceases to amaze...

Q: Where is any verification about the age and origin of the cabinet? Is there any way to determine the true story about how this came about? It is really beautiful! Thank you, Rob Wink Jul-17-08

A: Yes we have had many experts confirm originality and will supply any further information we can get to the buyer, we believe the original owners and their account of how the amp came to be

NAME THESE EXPERTS......the seller has a major problem
supplying ANY FORM of concrete proof to back up his claims. Mr.John
Sprung just now reconfirmed his opinion, that being its Bogus. He pointed
out the Black material didn't become avail till late '50s and the PLY Back
Panels are NOT CORRECT

[59TweedVibrolux]

The answers this guy gives are hilarious. He states that " NO SCREW has
been turned, the forensics prove it "........well call me Blind Lemon Jefferson
but how can the cab be so glossy, yet the Chassis Mount Screws be so
Tarnished and Worn Consistent with the Chassis having
been removed from its cab many times......
Particularly with an amp that, as he says, has been kept locked
away and covered. When I looked at the cover photo, it covers the entire
top of the amp, CHASSIS mount screws too, how then have they been
tarnished and worn ??? The Plot Thickens...........

" The Know experts that have say its correct " Is this seller
Chinese ??

" If a Buyer is comfortable with accepting what we say to be true, then
prepare for owning the most beautiful and Rare Fender amp EVER
Yada Yada Yada

He keeps talking about these " Experts" again, how about providing the
viewing public the names and credentials of these so called EXPERTS
so we can make up our minds.

EVERYTHING to do with this auction revolves around unsubstantiated and
over the top Claims by this seller, with NOT ONE PIECE of Evidence to
back it up.

Biggest FARCE I've ever come across

[tweedaddict]

its a sad ebay listing indeed

[teleon]

Greetings, tweedaddict. I second the WTF!

[Guitarslinger1]

Thanks for sharing the info.

Yeah, that dealer is pretty shady to say the least. That's his MO.

First off though, that fellow Dave should dismiss their threats of legal and police action. That's the kind of threats that shady people make. He has done nothing wrong, neither has the family member who sold it to the dealer and nothing would come of it.

At the same time, if anyone is sucker enough to fall for his "circular" answers on everything in the auction "it is authentic because we believe the family's account that it is authentic", then they'll always be getting taken advantage of. Especially when the photos show things differently from what he claims, like "all screws are virgin" etc.

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by tweedaddict

its a sad ebay listing indeed

Why did you severely edit your original post???

[Guitarslinger1]

Now he has added photos of a real Woody to the auction to back up the bogus amps authenticity I guess??? LOL

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Guitarslinger1

Why did you severely edit your original post???

Originally Posted by Guitarslinger1

Why did you severely edit your original post???

GuitarSlinger, if you carefully reread the original post that has been deleted, you might be able to take a good guess as to why it was edited. Some of what is in that post does not jibe with reports that I have gotten. None of the discrepancies have to do with the amp itself, and I have no judgement as to what is what here. Man, I would like to watch this unfold between all of these parties on Judge Judy.
(59TV, Judge Judy is a TV Court show here in the U.S.)
I do know this. The people who sold the amp to the person who bought the amp...and this person is not the owner of VGH....are the only people who have made a killing on the amp so far, imho. In this case and if the amp turns out to be what we all think it is at this point, VGH should heed the old 'caveat emptor' warning, eh? The widow and her nephew pocketed maybe $6K???? for a chassis worth about $500-1000 and a nice cab that maybe someone would like enough to give another $500 for. None of us were there at the purchase, and we know nothing of what was said between those parties. Buyer beware, indeed!
I will share this much. I am told that the measurements on the ebay cabinet mirror a Woody amp. The handle measurements are exact. The cabinet maker was good, wasn't he? If only he had built the baffleboard/grille in the same manner as Fender and used the same type of bracing brackets and staples, we would all think this was a transition pro between the Woody and tweed era.??? I am told that one of the elder statesmen of the vintage market on the West Coast has looked at the amp in person and said it is looks like a Fender to him. Another WEst Coast collector with experience is not convinced that it is not for real. So, if it is indeed a cabinet maker's aftermarket mod, it is a good one.
Could it be that someone saw the original owner/cabinet maker building a custom grille for this cabinet and remembers that....and that this is what makes someone believe that the whole cab was his work instead of the cab being original and custom-built at Fender with the chassis in it as new? I don't know. I do know that there are all sorts of possibilities here...including the real possibility that the cab is not original to the chassis and is not a Fender product. AS I said, I don't know. I can understand that I have never seen anything like it, it doesn't conform to Fender production at the time, and that people withmuch more experience than any of us seemingly have diametrically opposed opinions on the question of the cab's origins.
I also know that it is a good thing that burning at the stake is not accepted anymore. Remember...proof is necessary before condemnation.

[Wally]

http://www.webervst.com/amps/messages/32595.html

Interesting post over at WEber in response to 'Mike'.

[Guitarslinger1]

Originally Posted by Wally

GuitarSlinger, if you carefully reread the original post that has been deleted, you might be able to take a good guess as to why it was edited. Some of what is in that post does not jibe with reports that I have gotten. None of the discrepancies have to do with the amp itself, and I have no judgement as to what is what here. Man, I would like to watch this unfold between all of these parties on Judge Judy.
(59TV, Judge Judy is a TV Court show here in the U.S.)
I do know this. The people who sold the amp to the person who bought the amp...and this person is not the owner of VGH....are the only people who have made a killing on the amp so far, imho. In this case and if the amp turns out to be what we all think it is at this point, VGH should heed the old 'caveat emptor' warning, eh? The widow and her nephew pocketed maybe $6K???? for a chassis worth about $500-1000 and a nice cab that maybe someone would like enough to give another $500 for. None of us were there at the purchase, and we know nothing of what was said between those parties. Buyer beware, indeed!
I will share this much. I am told that the measurements on the ebay cabinet mirror a Woody amp. The handle measurements are exact. The cabinet maker was good, wasn't he? If only he had built the baffleboard/grille in the same manner as Fender and used the same type of bracing brackets and staples, we would all think this was a transition pro between the Woody and tweed era.??? I am told that one of the elder statesmen of the vintage market on the West Coast has looked at the amp in person and said it is looks like a Fender to him. Another WEst Coast collector with experience is not convinced that it is not for real. So, if it is indeed a cabinet maker's aftermarket mod, it is a good one.
Could it be that someone saw the original owner/cabinet maker building a custom grille for this cabinet and remembers that....and that this is what makes someone believe that the whole cab was his work instead of the cab being original and custom-built at Fender with the chassis in it as new? I don't know. I do know that there are all sorts of possibilities here...including the real possibility that the cab is not original to the chassis and is not a Fender product. AS I said, I don't know. I can understand that I have never seen anything like it, it doesn't conform to Fender production at the time, and that people withmuch more experience than any of us seemingly have diametrically opposed opinions on the question of the cab's origins.
I also know that it is a good thing that burning at the stake is not accepted anymore. Remember...proof is necessary before condemnation.

Wait, his post was deleted because some of it doesn't jibe with reports that you've gotten?


Nobody that I know of doubts the chassis. The transformers alone are probably worth at least $500.

As you know from past posts in this thread, John Sprung, who is an expert and collector of Woodys and Gerald Weber, who has worked on a more than a few vintage Fenders, have both called BS on the cabinet.

Who is the unnamed west coast expert who you claims it to be authentic? If he's not willing to put his name on his claim and backup his claim with reasons, it's meaningless.

The diametrically opposed opinions are kind of funny.

On one side you have the people who believe the fairytale story because the guy claims it. This view is supposedly supported by an unnamed expert, and a few guys on message boards.

On the other side, you have those who can tell by looking that the cabinet, baffle, grill, etc. look nothing like anything from Fender in the 40s or 50s save for the shape of the cabinet handle. This is supported by two named vintage amp experts. We have plenty of the proof necessary for the condemnation. I won't bother to list it because it has all been listed in previous posts on this thread, which I would suggest anyone with questions about it to go back and read.

And, 59Tweed is exactly right. The burden of proof is on the seller to back up his claim. So far he can not substantiate any of his claims. If a claim can not be substantiated, it is merely a claim.

So it does boil down to "everything we say about this amp is true if the buyer believes it." That is no different than my saying there really is a Santa Clause if you believe there is. I'm sorry, but "belief" doesn't hold up as fact.

That Weber board response to Mike has little meaning. He's another guy posting his opinion. He may have owned some Woodys, he may not, but he does not cite specific similarities between real Woody cabinets and the amp cabinet in question. So it's just smack.