Homemade Cables sound dull

RotelliCaster · June 26th, 2008, 07:04 PM

I purchased 50 feet of Canare GS6 Cable and Some neutrik ends. I soldered them together and they work well but I have come to find that My Cheap GC cables are much brighter and clearer. A member in another thread, suggested that I might have the black conductive sleeve making contact with the center wire, This was not the case. I checked all of my newly made cables and they are all muddier sounding cables than the CG House brand cables.

Any thoughts here?

Mike Bruce · June 26th, 2008, 07:12 PM

Just a guess, but what solder are you using? I forget what works best, but someone here will know.

Mike Bruce

6942 · June 26th, 2008, 09:43 PM

I use the same Canare/Neutrik cable combination as you do in a 15 foot length.
I think it sounds much better than the Planet Waves cable it replaced?
But then....my poor ears a lot older than yours.
How long are your cable lengths?
I like using Kester 63/37 245 solder....but I'm sure others have their own favs.

Steve

RotelliCaster · June 26th, 2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bruce

Just a guess, but what solder are you using? I forget what works best, but someone here will know.

Mike Bruce

I'm using Radio Shack .022 dia 62/36/2 High Tech-Rosin Core Silver Bearing Solder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6942

I use the same Canare/Neutrik cable combination as you do in a 15 foot length.
I think it sounds much better than the Planet Waves cable it replaced?
But then....my poor ears a lot older than yours.
How long are your cable lengths?
I like using Kester 63/37 245 solder....but I'm sure others have their own favs.

Steve

The Lengths I made from the 50ft bulk cable are 2x5ft 2x10ft 1x20ft I compared 5's to 5's 10's to 10's and the 20 to an 18ft. All of the Canare Cables are duller than my old, cheap, beat up GC cables.

Could it be the solder?

This is supposed to be low capacitance cable, I thought I'd end up with clearer sounding cables.

mojo2001 · June 26th, 2008, 10:10 PM

Is the new cable really "muddier" or is it just not as bright?

The new cable might not have as much tizz factor, which some may view as a plus. It might be richer in the mids, more subdued in the treble. Possibly a more 3-D kinda sound.

In any case, this is what I would expect in moving to a higher quality wire. I have not tried the cable in question though...

Whether you like it or not in your rig is the ultimate thing.

RotelliCaster · June 26th, 2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo2001

Is the new cable really "muddier" or is it just not as bright?

The new cable might not have as much tizz factor, which some may view as a plus. It might be richer in the mids, more subdued in the treble. Possibly a more 3-D kinda sound.

In any case, this is what I would expect in moving to a higher quality wire. I have not tried the cable in question though...

Whether you like it or not in your rig is the ultimate thing.

I would say it's not as bright as the older cables. It's like I have the tone knob turned down a bit. It's not as articulate with chords. The old cables seem to breath better, if that makes any sense.

RotelliCaster · June 28th, 2008, 06:32 PM

If this is what the cables I made are supposed to sound like, I wasted my time and money. I could have gotten several CG cables for the 60 bucks I spent on dull sounding piece of hose. It's like a big capacitor is being used

I wonder if Bill And Becky's cable kit subdues the treble as well or if they are bright and clear.

I think I'll cut the ends off and toss them in a parts box and Maybe I can use the Canare Cable to bundle up some tree limbs for trash pickup.

lostpick · June 28th, 2008, 06:43 PM

This can happen if there is a resistive load between
the cable shield, the place you solder the cable to
under the shield, and the sleeve on the jack.
I had this happen with a cheap jack that was
press fitted together. If you wiggled it with an ohm meter
attached it could go as high as 5 ohms....
decreased output and diminished brightness was the result.
Also one fiber of shield wire touching hot tip path
can do this.....meter out the cable....if it passes
then its a capacitance issue

RotelliCaster · June 28th, 2008, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostpick

This can happen if there is a resistive load between
the cable shield, the place you solder the cable to
under the shield, and the sleeve on the jack.
I had this happen with a cheap jack that was
press fitted together. If you wiggled it with an ohm meter
attached it could go as high as 5 ohms....
decreased output and diminished brightness was the result.
Also one fiber of shield wire touching hot tip path
can do this.....meter out the cable....if it passes
then its a capacitance issue

I dont have any of the conductive sheild touching the center and I'm confident that the ground webbing isn't touching either.

Can you explain how/what you mean by "Meter out the cable"?

Stewart Ward · June 29th, 2008, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotelliCaster

Can you explain how/what you mean by "Meter out the cable"?

That is, I guess being English myself, an alternative way of saying "test the cable with a multimeter for continuity or shorts". But I could be wrong!

Telenator · June 29th, 2008, 06:18 AM

I have to say that all this cable hoopla adds up to one thing. They sound different. But different doesn't always mean better.

To an engineer, a tube amp is an abomination of inefficiency inducing distortion into what should be a totaly clean signal and they'll prefer a solid state amp every time. But then a player plugs into a tube amp and it's smiles all around!

On paper these "super" cables might appear better but that doesn't necessarily mean they sound better. Different? maybe. Better? Just don't ask a guitar player! Too many different answers!

beep.click · June 29th, 2008, 06:22 AM

Well, Rotelli, thanks for sharing the story!

Clearly, different cables sound different. I used to make my own with Belden 8410 cable, and they opened up the treble like nobody's business. Going back to the cheaper storebought cables of the day was like putting cotton in my ears.

I've heard that George L cable is supposed to be bright-sounding; haven't tried it.

Billm · June 29th, 2008, 07:42 AM

It's not a resistance problem and it's certainly not the solder!

As I recall, Canare cable has a fairly high capacitance per foot, around 50pF. (I'll look this up later if I get a chance.) So even a 10 foot cable is adding 500pF to ground. It acts as a low-pass filter. On paper, it's a first-order low-pass filter, and it rolls off highs at 6dB per octave. The actual amount may be greater after it's done interacting with your guitar and amp.

GS6 cable is built for low microphonics, not low capacitance. It resists handling noise, slapping against the stage, etc. I use Mogami cable for the same reason, but it has almost half the capacitance of the Canare.

The amount of roll-off you get from a cable is dependent on both your guitar and your amp--they form a resonant circuit. That's why some people report great results and you try the same cable and hate it.

BTW, the brightest cable in my collection is some cheap Chinese 20 foot POS that a used-guitar dealer gave me when I bought a bass for my son. The plugs were crap; I replaced them with Neutriks. It tends to break at the strain reliefs, so it keeps getting shorter in 6-inch increments. But it sounds great. Go figure.

Stewart Ward · June 29th, 2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beep.click

Well, Rotelli, thanks for sharing the story!

Clearly, different cables sound different. I used to make my own with Belden 8410 cable, and they opened up the treble like nobody's business. Going back to the cheaper storebought cables of the day was like putting cotton in my ears.

I've heard that George L cable is supposed to be bright-sounding; haven't tried it.

Interesting...I tried some Belden cables that Alan Rogan (Pete Townsend's GT) was using back in the 1980s... but I was not impressed, sadly.

Let it be said... cable can only attenuate the HF running along it. The cable cannot alter the harmonic structure of the sound. So it is exclusively capacitance that is the culprit. At high impedances of the order experienced with guitar amps, a few ohms of resistance is not going to make the slightest difference to the signal in any way. There could be a small amount of inductance in the cable, but that will be inaudible compared with the huge inductance of the PU to which it is connected.

We just need to apply the KISS factor here. It ain't rocket science!! If your guitar sounds great to you, and you continue to get paid to play... then that's all you need to worry about.

I hear many people with great sounds these days. I hear guys with loadza dosh that have 'bought' a sound EXACTLY like Hank Marvin... but can't play like him, some have 'bought' the EXACT Roy Bucannan sound... but can't play like him... do I need to go on?

Spend your time worrying about your playing ability AND developing a unique style of your own. No one will ever reach the pinnacle of earning ability by copying someone else! It's already been done!! Having the very best gear alone, will NOT make anyone a GREAT player.

I'll leave you with this thought. Max Factor said... "We don't sell makeup... we sell hope!"
Good luck!

lostpick · June 29th, 2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billm

It's not a resistance problem and it's certainly not the solder!

As I recall, Canare cable has a fairly high capacitance per foot, around 50pF. (I'll look this up later if I get a chance.) So even a 10 foot cable is adding 500pF to ground. It acts as a low-pass filter. On paper, it's a first-order low-pass filter, and it rolls off highs at 6dB per octave. The actual amount may be greater after it's done interacting with your guitar and amp.

GS6 cable is built for low microphonics, not low capacitance. It resists handling noise, slapping against the stage, etc. I use Mogami cable for the same reason, but it has almost half the capacitance of the Canare.

The amount of roll-off you get from a cable is dependent on both your guitar and your amp--they form a resonant circuit. That's why some people report great results and you try the same cable and hate it.

BTW, the brightest cable in my collection is some cheap Chinese 20 foot POS that a used-guitar dealer gave me when I bought a bass for my son. The plugs were crap; I replaced them with Neutriks. It tends to break at the strain reliefs, so it keeps getting shorter in 6-inch increments. But it sounds great. Go figure.

This is the most likely explanation...
if the cable tests OK with a meter...

RotelliCaster · June 29th, 2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

From Canare.com

Model Number
gs-6
A specially designed Oxygen Free Copper 18 AWG cable for connecting Guitar/Bass or Keyboards to amps, mixers, effects pedals and all outboard signal processing gear. Low capacitance and low series resistance provides improved frequency response (flat to 50kHz). A bright, ringing characteristic sound is preserved, even when using HI-Z guitar pickups with long cable runs. The proprietary double Carbon/Braid Copper shield construction eliminates microphonic handling noise, especially on stage where amps are often set at maximum volume levels. Also highly recommended for Amp Head to Speaker Cabinet leads.

http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?obje...C64A4EA6821ADA

I missed the Technical spec's that state the capacitance @ 49.0 pF/ft. Not that I would have known what that meant.
I excepted the claim of,"Low capacitance and low series resistance provides improved frequency response (flat to 50kHz). A bright, ringing characteristic sound is preserved...".

Is 49.0 pF/ft considered Low capacitance?

Live and learn

Billm · June 29th, 2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Is 49.0 pF/ft considered Low capacitance?

The regular Mogami guitar cable (2319) is 47pF per foot, which is pretty much the same. I use some stuff that's around 25-30pF per foot.

Thinking about this some more, I wonder if you're getting mids peaking, not highs roll-off. If the highs are still there but the mids are being emphasized (resonant circuit with your pickups), that could sound like diminished highs.

RotelliCaster · June 29th, 2008, 03:46 PM

Bill,

No matter which of my guitars I use with Pickups from Keystones to Toneriders, humbuckers to P90's they all loose some treble, like I'm rolling back the tone knob a bit.

When I change to the adjustable Bias a few weeks ago and emailed you that It sounded duller, you thought I might have had the bias set a little hot. It turned out to be my new Canare cable, although I did roll the bias back from 4.7 to 4.2 and it sweetened things up a bit for any cable I might use.

What cable are you using that is 25-30pF per foot? The best I saw from Mogami in guitar cable was 39.7pF per foot (W2524 cable).

Bill Lawrence sells cable that he state is 20pF per foot. I know it's extra skinny cable so I wonder how well it handles microphonic, handling noise.

Like most of his stuff, it looks different then the rest of the worlds guitar gear, But it always seems to be the best sounding stuff!

Looks like the GC cables are the way to go. I had the end come apart on one a few weeks ago and they replaced it without a problem. But I can't stand the way the barrel on the connectors unscrew so easily, I have to solder them shut and the grind it off before I go to GC so that they can inspect the break.

RotelliCaster · June 29th, 2008, 11:02 PM

I went to GC and picked up 5 ft of the Planet Waves bulk cable. At $1.50 it's not a bargain to by a bunch of it at the store. I went to Radio Shack and pick up a couple of run of the mill 1/4" connectors. I came home, solder it together and test it against the other two cables.

The Planet Waves cable is by far the clearest and brightest cable of the bunch.

I can't find any specs for this cable to give me a reference point from the Canare cable. I wonder how the Mogami W2524 would compare.

Be for I did the test I carefully went through and checked the Homemade cable it metered out fine but I cut and re-soldered one end that looked questionable, the cable still sounds thick/dull.

If you can remember what that 25-30pF cable is Bill, I'd sure like to know.

Guitar_Ninja · June 30th, 2008, 12:50 AM

Mogami 2524 sounds pretty similar to GS-6. I've heard that George L cable also sounds pretty similar, though I haven't tried any of those.

The GS-6 definitely has a smoother, more emphasized mid-range, but I wouldn't call the ones I have 'dark' by any stretch. I would assume it depends on some level what combo of guitar, cable and amp you're using.

June 26th, 2008, 07:04 PM	#1 (permalink)
RotelliCaster Tele-Meister Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bethany, OK Age: 41 Posts: 412 13 Photos	Homemade Cables sound dull I purchased 50 feet of Canare GS6 Cable and Some neutrik ends. I soldered them together and they work well but I have come to find that My Cheap GC cables are much brighter and clearer. A member in another thread, suggested that I might have the black conductive sleeve making contact with the center wire, This was not the case. I checked all of my newly made cables and they are all muddier sounding cables than the CG House brand cables. Any thoughts here? __________________ " Trust me, I saw this in a cartoon and I'm pretty sure I can do it! " http://www.myspace.com/bmwsteve Guitar Photos

June 28th, 2008, 06:32 PM	#7 (permalink)
RotelliCaster Tele-Meister Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bethany, OK Age: 41 Posts: 412 13 Photos	If this is what the cables I made are supposed to sound like, I wasted my time and money. I could have gotten several CG cables for the 60 bucks I spent on dull sounding piece of hose. It's like a big capacitor is being used I wonder if Bill And Becky's cable kit subdues the treble as well or if they are bright and clear. I think I'll cut the ends off and toss them in a parts box and Maybe I can use the Canare Cable to bundle up some tree limbs for trash pickup. __________________ " Trust me, I saw this in a cartoon and I'm pretty sure I can do it! " http://www.myspace.com/bmwsteve Guitar Photos

June 29th, 2008, 06:18 AM	#11 (permalink)
Telenator Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 4,476	I have to say that all this cable hoopla adds up to one thing. They sound different. But different doesn't always mean better. To an engineer, a tube amp is an abomination of inefficiency inducing distortion into what should be a totaly clean signal and they'll prefer a solid state amp every time. But then a player plugs into a tube amp and it's smiles all around! On paper these "super" cables might appear better but that doesn't necessarily mean they sound better. Different? maybe. Better? Just don't ask a guitar player! Too many different answers! __________________ Dogs have the right idea!

June 29th, 2008, 06:22 AM	#12 (permalink)
beep.click Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 1,805	Well, Rotelli, thanks for sharing the story! Clearly, different cables sound different. I used to make my own with Belden 8410 cable, and they opened up the treble like nobody's business. Going back to the cheaper storebought cables of the day was like putting cotton in my ears. I've heard that George L cable is supposed to be bright-sounding; haven't tried it. __________________ "It looked like a giant green gum drop to me."

June 29th, 2008, 03:46 PM	#18 (permalink)
RotelliCaster Tele-Meister Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bethany, OK Age: 41 Posts: 412 13 Photos	Bill, No matter which of my guitars I use with Pickups from Keystones to Toneriders, humbuckers to P90's they all loose some treble, like I'm rolling back the tone knob a bit. When I change to the adjustable Bias a few weeks ago and emailed you that It sounded duller, you thought I might have had the bias set a little hot. It turned out to be my new Canare cable, although I did roll the bias back from 4.7 to 4.2 and it sweetened things up a bit for any cable I might use. What cable are you using that is 25-30pF per foot? The best I saw from Mogami in guitar cable was 39.7pF per foot (W2524 cable). Bill Lawrence sells cable that he state is 20pF per foot. I know it's extra skinny cable so I wonder how well it handles microphonic, handling noise. Like most of his stuff, it looks different then the rest of the worlds guitar gear, But it always seems to be the best sounding stuff! Looks like the GC cables are the way to go. I had the end come apart on one a few weeks ago and they replaced it without a problem. But I can't stand the way the barrel on the connectors unscrew so easily, I have to solder them shut and the grind it off before I go to GC so that they can inspect the break. __________________ " Trust me, I saw this in a cartoon and I'm pretty sure I can do it! " http://www.myspace.com/bmwsteve Guitar Photos

June 26th, 2008, 07:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mike Bruce Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Goderich Posts: 233	Just a guess, but what solder are you using? I forget what works best, but someone here will know. Mike Bruce

June 26th, 2008, 09:43 PM	#3 (permalink)
6942 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Western Maryland Posts: 1,529	I use the same Canare/Neutrik cable combination as you do in a 15 foot length. I think it sounds much better than the Planet Waves cable it replaced? But then....my poor ears a lot older than yours. How long are your cable lengths? I like using Kester 63/37 245 solder....but I'm sure others have their own favs. Steve

June 26th, 2008, 10:10 PM	#5 (permalink)
mojo2001 Tele-Meister Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colonial Virginia Age: 49 Posts: 231	Is the new cable really "muddier" or is it just not as bright? The new cable might not have as much tizz factor, which some may view as a plus. It might be richer in the mids, more subdued in the treble. Possibly a more 3-D kinda sound. In any case, this is what I would expect in moving to a higher quality wire. I have not tried the cable in question though... Whether you like it or not in your rig is the ultimate thing.

June 28th, 2008, 06:43 PM	#8 (permalink)
lostpick Tele-Holic Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Staten Island, NYC Posts: 988	This can happen if there is a resistive load between the cable shield, the place you solder the cable to under the shield, and the sleeve on the jack. I had this happen with a cheap jack that was press fitted together. If you wiggled it with an ohm meter attached it could go as high as 5 ohms.... decreased output and diminished brightness was the result. Also one fiber of shield wire touching hot tip path can do this.....meter out the cable....if it passes then its a capacitance issue

June 29th, 2008, 07:42 AM	#13 (permalink)
Billm Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey Age: 61 Posts: 392 1 Photos	It's not a resistance problem and it's certainly not the solder! As I recall, Canare cable has a fairly high capacitance per foot, around 50pF. (I'll look this up later if I get a chance.) So even a 10 foot cable is adding 500pF to ground. It acts as a low-pass filter. On paper, it's a first-order low-pass filter, and it rolls off highs at 6dB per octave. The actual amount may be greater after it's done interacting with your guitar and amp. GS6 cable is built for low microphonics, not low capacitance. It resists handling noise, slapping against the stage, etc. I use Mogami cable for the same reason, but it has almost half the capacitance of the Canare. The amount of roll-off you get from a cable is dependent on both your guitar and your amp--they form a resonant circuit. That's why some people report great results and you try the same cable and hate it. BTW, the brightest cable in my collection is some cheap Chinese 20 foot POS that a used-guitar dealer gave me when I bought a bass for my son. The plugs were crap; I replaced them with Neutriks. It tends to break at the strain reliefs, so it keeps getting shorter in 6-inch increments. But it sounds great. Go figure.

June 29th, 2008, 11:02 PM	#19 (permalink)
RotelliCaster Tele-Meister Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bethany, OK Age: 41 Posts: 412 13 Photos	I went to GC and picked up 5 ft of the Planet Waves bulk cable. At $1.50 it's not a bargain to by a bunch of it at the store. I went to Radio Shack and pick up a couple of run of the mill 1/4" connectors. I came home, solder it together and test it against the other two cables. The Planet Waves cable is by far the clearest and brightest cable of the bunch. I can't find any specs for this cable to give me a reference point from the Canare cable. I wonder how the Mogami W2524 would compare. Be for I did the test I carefully went through and checked the Homemade cable it metered out fine but I cut and re-soldered one end that looked questionable, the cable still sounds thick/dull. If you can remember what that 25-30pF cable is Bill, I'd sure like to know. __________________ " Trust me, I saw this in a cartoon and I'm pretty sure I can do it! " http://www.myspace.com/bmwsteve Guitar Photos

June 30th, 2008, 12:50 AM	#20 (permalink)
Guitar_Ninja Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 1,303 5 Photos	Mogami 2524 sounds pretty similar to GS-6. I've heard that George L cable also sounds pretty similar, though I haven't tried any of those. The GS-6 definitely has a smoother, more emphasized mid-range, but I wouldn't call the ones I have 'dark' by any stretch. I would assume it depends on some level what combo of guitar, cable and amp you're using. __________________ Wicket KNOWS.